Eagle94-A1

The Chartered Organization has the right to set guidelines and standards for selecting the unit's volunteer leaders.  The CO owns the unit.

 

I don't restrict the selection of my unit's volunteer leaders to people who have children in the unit.  We have several great leaders whose children have aged-out, and others who have never had children in the unit.

 

That said, I whole heartedly support the right of other Chartered Organizations to establish that rule for their units.

 

The council has a different set of standards for council volunteers, some of which would conflict with my Chartered Organizations policies and values.  It is entirely possible that the council might appoint a UC who would be totally unacceptable as a unit leader in my troop (for reasons other than not having children in the troop).

 

I totally reject the argument that we should have UC's in order to allow applicant volunteers, who would otherwise be ineligible to participate in our unit in a leadership position, to bypass our Chartered Organizations policies and standards and participate in our unit. I totally reject it.

Again, I think you do not understand the concept of a Unit Commissioner. They are support personnel, not members of your unit(s). Their job is to help, coach, etc the units' leaders when they need help. They also are responsible for visiting units to make sure everything is OK, and try to forestall problems before they explode. 

if I remember correctly, you are a COR. You do realize that you are a member of both the district and council committees? You do realize that if you do not like the UC(s) assigned to your unitsyou can request a new one?

Agree with Eagle94, with caveat that it's been same CO.

If it's been with the same CO since 1945, MOST DEFINATELY! (emphasis)

If there has been a change in COs, MAYBE. (again emphasis)

If the change in COs was approved by the first CO, i.e. filled out the paperwork relinquishing the unit number, then I'm good. My troop growing up had 4 COs in a 25 year period. In all instances, the COs filled out the paperwork relinquishing the number. So there was never a lapse in tenure.

If the unit folded, then was restarted after the time limit where the unit number becomes available again, then I say no.

My troop and it's associated pack is lucky. They were able to be restarted and kept the same unit number. I think the number was on the market to the next CO to start a unit when both were restarted.

_{Officially no you cannot Unofficially I've seen it done. Me personally I would but something on the troop neckerchief "since 1945"}

Oh yes, this unit has problems. And yes,  I do wish the COR would be active, but for whatever reason they are not.  Maybe if the CO was removed the SM, it would improve things. Or maybe the troop would fold since no one at the CO was willing to step up in the first place?

And to be honest in my 21 years serving on district committees in 6 different councils, only 1, yes ONE COR ever attended any district committee and/or council committee meetings ever.  ONE! Heck I never knew a COR was on those committees until I became a DE, and I was on a district committee for  3 years prior to being a DE.

And regarding your comments about UCs, well you obviously do not have a clue as to what they do and how they help units. NOT. A. CLUE.

I'm sorry you feel this way. But the tone of your words, and the style of your writing not only is insulting to those volunteers who serve in the commissioner roles but also shows your very parochial and ignorant views.

BTW while troop's COR is not active in the way he should, the CO is VERY active with the pack and troop, to the point that they will not allow non-members to be SM. BUT THEY STILL USE THE COMMISSIONER ASSIGNED TO THEM AND THE ROUNDTABLE COMMISSIONER ( caps for emphasis, not shouting).

Eagle94-A1,

 

The Chartered Organization is not appointed to the unit.  The CO owns the unit. Yep

 

One CO can transfer ownership of a unit over to another CO, but the council cannot appoint a CO.  The CO owns the unit, not the council.Yep

 

The CO is not the friend, teacher, counselor, and doctor to the unit.  The CO is the owner of the unit. Yep

Let me edit what I said. Apparently all these abbreviations are getting to me, and I used CO instead of UC  Edits to clarify and change to correct terminology in red

I guess it's all in the view of the unit. My pack's late Unit C was a "a friend, counselor, teacher, or doctor to the unit."  While the units and Charter Organization's leadership didn't specifically ask for him, The District Commissioner appointed him to the units because he was a member of the CO, had tons of Scouting experience as an ASM, SM, district committee member and chairman, and served on the council executive board, he a great help to the pack when we needed him. Not only that, he was active in that he would visit us 1-2 times a month, attend Blue and Gold and Crossovers, etc. It was a great loss to the units he served, and Scouting when he passed away.

 

My Troop's Unit Commissioner is also a friend, counselor, teacher, and doctor. Again he was appointed to us, but he did have a relationship with our troop. When he was getting started with a brand new troop, my troop helped him out, got the leaders trained etc. Heck the two troops even camped together on occasion. Sadly my troop folded, and his grew. Then my troop was reborn, and his troop folded. He is returning the favor.

 

And in my neck of the woods, units can choose their UCs and vice versa. When the pack's UC, who also served as the troop and crew's UC from the CO, passed away, the district commissioner tried to get someone with a relationship to the Troop and Crew to be UC.  I was the acting UC for the troop because I helped start the troop back in the day, knew the leaders having helped trained some of them, and I was in the feeder pack.

 

I guess I was considered a "toady" and "not the friend of the unit...only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit" because I tried to help the new SM and the troop when they began to hemorrhage Scouts. When I was told, "I don't know what I'm talking about," and "Scouting needs to change with the times," I asked to be relieved. Thankfully one of the original MCs of the troop moved back to the area and became UC for the CO's units because she too had a relationship with all three units and was a member of the CO. I guess she too was considered a "toady" and "not the friend of the unit...only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit" because when she saw the unit that she gave blood, sweat, tears, and treasure to get started turn 180 degrees from the way a troop is suppose to be run and being told she doesn't know anything and Scouting needs to change with the times, she requested not to be the UC for the troop too.

 

I guess the troop is now glad they no longer have a UC assigned to them after chasing off 3 or 4 UCs. I guess they didn't like having a "toady" who was "not the friend of the unit...only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit" being around. Unfortunately the way the troop is going, I do not think the troop will be around much longer. They do not camp on a regular basis. The SM appoints leaders. They have had a total of 3 new Scouts join the troop AND remain in the past 3 years.

 

EDITED: And no, I do not want to see the troop fold. While I didn't invest as much as the UC that followed me, I did help get the troop started by being a trainer and mentor to the original SM. And I do regret a little not taking over as SM when I was offered. But the last person I thought would be able to help turn the troop around, his son was so disgusted with the troop, the son quit. So he had no reason to stay. There is now another leader that I hope will stay and help turn it around, especially since he has been friends with the SM for ages. But now son is leaning towards going to another troop.

Sorry you feel that way about your UC.  In my experience active UC's are worth their weight in gold. yes sometimes they are on paper only. But trust me, a good one is truly a friend, counselor, teacher and doctor. My pack has been tremendously helped by the commissioner corps. My troop has been helped also. It is the troop that has rejected the UCs assigned to them that is suffering the most.

Not a political ad, but a automotive park's ad. They used members of the owner's troop in an ad in uniform, even reciting part of the Law.  Commercial aired about 2-3 weeks max before being pulled.

I guess it's all in the view of the unit. My pack's late UC was a "a friend, counselor, teacher, or doctor to the unit."  While the leadership didn't specifically ask for him, The District Commissioner appointed him to us because he was a member of the CO, had tons of Scouting experience as an ASM, SM, district committee member and chairman, and served on the council executive board, he a great help to the pack when we needed him. Not only that, he was active in that he would visit us 1-2 times a month, attend Blue and Gold and Crossovers, etc. It was a great loss to the units he served, and Scouting when he passed away.

My Troop's CO is also a friend, counselor, teacher, and doctor. Again he was appointed to us, but he did have a relationship with our troop. When he was getting started with a brand new troop, my troop helped him out, got the leaders trained etc. Heck the two troops even camped together on occasion. Sadly my troop folded, and his grew. Then my troop was reborn, and his troop folded. He is returning the favor.

And in my neck of the woods, units can choose their UCs and vice versa. When the pack's UC, who also served as the troop and crew's UC from the CO, passed away, the district commissioner tried to get someone with a relationship to the Troop and Crew to be UC.  I was the acting UC for the troop because I helped start the troop back in the day, knew the leaders having helped trained some of them, and I was in the feeder pack.

I guess I was considered a "toady" and "not the friend of the unit...only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit" because I tried to help the new SM and the troop when they began to hemorrhage Scouts. When I was told, "I don't know what I'm talking about," and "Scouting needs to change with the times," I asked to be relieved. Thankfully one of the original MCs of the troop moved back to the area and became UC for the CO's units because she too had a relationship with all three units and was a member of the CO. I guess she too was considered a "toady" and "not the friend of the unit...only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit" because when she saw the unit that she gave blood, sweat, tears, and treasure to get started turn 180 degrees from the way a troop is suppose to be run and being told she doesn't know anything and Scouting needs to change with the times, she requested not to be the UC for the troop too.

I guess the troop is now glad they no longer have a UC assigned to them after chasing off 3 or 4 UCs. I guess they didn't like having a "toady" who was "not the friend of the unit...only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit" being around. Unfortunately the way the troop is going, I do not think the troop will be around much longer. They do not camp on a regular basis. The SM appoints leaders. They have had a total of 3 new Scouts join the troop AND remain in the past 3 years.

EDITED: And no, I do not want to see the troop fold. While I didn't invest as much as the UC that followed me, I did help get the troop started by being a trainer and mentor to the original SM. And I do regret a little not taking over as SM when I was offered. But the last person I thought would be able to help turn the troop around, his son was so disgusted with the troop, the son quit. So he had no reason to stay. There is now another leader that I hope will stay and help turn it around, especially since he has been friends with the SM for ages. But now son is leaning towards going to another troop.

My BALOO was a waste of time too.  I didn't learn anything, and being in a classroom didn't appeal top me. When I taught BALOO, it was at the local camp and a lot more hands on.

SM Fundamentals, the old course that combined This is Scouting, SM Specific, and ITOLS into 1 course over a month, was mixed. Learning about the paperwork side was worth it. The How a meeting is suppose to run, and T-2-1 camping skills were kinda a waste of time. BUT, the fellowship of my patrol was great.  But that course was only offered twice a year, so you would have anywhere from 4-8 patrols worth of Scouters. Some just crossed over, some who left Scouting for a while and were back, and some like me who aged out.

One thing I did last time I did ITOLS was get the best staff I could find, irregardless of whether they completed ITOLS or not, or whether they were an adult or a Scout. 2 Scouts on staff did a great job. Of my staff, 3 had taken ITOLS or SM Specific, 2 had their beads (although the 3 beader was "untrained" because he needed ITOLS still), and 3 needed ITOLS. I think 3 Eagle Scouts with extensive camping experience, including 2 who went to Philmont (one did 3 times), Woudl be able to teach basic campcraft, I also got some of the participants onthe spot and got them to help teach.

Funny thing about one of the Scouts staffing ITOLS. 2 years later, he turned 18. District training chairman made him go through ITOLS again as a participant. He didn't want anyone to say he showed favoritism to his son.

On a different note, we have one long term Scouter who has yet to complete ITOLS. Been active as a Scouter since the mid 1960s, Been to Philmont multiple times on treks and staffed there multiple years ( I believe he said he's been to Philmont 21 times total since the 1960s, not including those visits to drop off his kids who were Philmont staffers too). I think he could pass the class easily, if he would take the time to take it.

No it did not. In fact it actually upped attendance.  Long story short, the camporee for one of the two districts (mine) involved is traditionally the last full weekend in October. It was moved up this year because the other district revolves their activities around the local university's home football games. Hurricane Matthew caused us to move back to the traditional weekend. It was that or cancel, which the other district wanted to do. All the troops in my district said let's do it no matter what. Long story short we did have 3 troops back out due to the date change (the other district), but 3 troops were able to make it with the date change ( 1 from the other district, 2 from mine). And two of the three troops were quite large.

When it was on Halloween weekend last year, attendance was pretty good too. Everyone had a blast.

In 2014, the Cub family camp out was Halloween through Sunday Nov. 2nd.  While Friday had a low attendance, we had  trick or treat Saturday nite on the 1st.  IT WAS A SMASH HIT!!!!! (caps for emphasis). A lot of the Cubs enjoyed having 2 nites of trick or treating. And lots of parents had to deal with sugar enhanced children.

As y'alll know, I'm camporee chief again next year. I got a whole year to plan this time. Since it will be Halloween Weekend once again, and since everyone likes Wilderness Survival we are going with a preparedness/survival theme. I personally like Zombie Apocalypse.

Anyway adults from the other district and I have come up with some ideas.  I told the PLC Saturday I wanted their ideas, turn them in to their SMs for Roundtable, and I want them. I don't think all of them quite believed me about getting their input. Between election results from last nite's troop meeting, I talked to my guys. here are some ideas.

Costume contest and post campfire trick or treating.

No Tents, improvised shelters only

Everyone carries a survival kit and can only use what is in it for events

No stoves for cooking, wood and charcoal only.

Instead of a Dutch Oven Cook Off, it will be an Utensiless Cooking Cook Off

More time for events and free flowing instead of rigid timeline.

Static displays for learning

Simpler Orienteering course with survival supplies cached about

harder first aid scenarios

More later

I agree regarding adults signing off in logs. Only reason I can see it was that enough folks demanded one from national, especially to recordcamping for Camping MB, that they put one in.

Now my troop growing up did have a process. We had a troop totem we wore, and we earned beads for camping, service projects, etc to wear on the totem. Nothing formal.

What I find interesting is that while these non-national, local council rules are on the books, they are not really enforced. I've seen several Scouts and adults with sheath knives at the local camps. Heck I saw a Webelos using an axe, and using it better than some Scouts I must saw, at one function. Dad said the son splits wood at home, why can't he do it camping? 

No problem at all. I've had folks attend our training sessions from Out Of Council (OOC), as well as other events, i.e camporees, Merit badge universities, Cub Scout Day Camps, etc.

And when my district cancelled Cub Scout Day Camp, several families went to a different council's because it was closer than our neighboring districts' day camps.

Right now, my council is working with another council to set up some scheduled activities at the camp in my district since their camp was damaged by Hurricane Matthew,  Only reason we didn't invite the Cubs to the event this past weekend was because we had maxed out the camp! Otherwise they would have been more than welcomed to attend.

Strike anywhere matches exist.  They are just hard to find in many areas and expensive to buy on the Net.  The quality is also not very high for the most common brand - Diamond.

 

We can find them here in Ohio in small stores catering to the Amish.

I told a friend of mine how hard I long I've been searching for strike anywhere matches. He found a place and got 2 boxes for me, and 5 for him. Agri Supply is the companym and they are located in the following places

• Garner, NC
• Greenville, NC
• Lumberton, NC
• Florence, SC
• Petersburg, VA
• Statesboro, GA
• Tifton, GA
• Valdosta, GA

Going to use the new syllabus for the first time next week. I'm a late addition to the staff, my WFA class that same weekend and same camp is cancelled due to lack of participants. So I've not read the syllabus yet, just glanced over it.

To quote the Second Doctor (Patrick Troughton), " HMMM you changed things. I don't like it."

I would think summer camp, a backpacking trip, and a canoeing trip would be fantastic adventures to be using the basic scout skills everyday.

Summer camp was more individual than patrol or even troop. Everything is scheduled, even the nite time activities

Backpacking trip was for the older Scouts and not a troop wide event.

As for the canoe trip, let just say it was "interesting"

Nice! I unfortunately just repeated that myth in another thread.

While National BSA HAS NOT banned  it, some councils HAVE banned white gas and other liquid fuels. My council does not allow white gas

From page 7 of the 2017 Summer Camp Leaders' Guide

Liquid & LP Fuels

In accordance with camp policy, the use of liquid fuels (i.e.: kerosene, gasoline, liquid Coleman fuel) in camp is prohibited.

David,

 

Yep - that does sometimes happen - but it's rare enough to be newsworthy - that says far more about the lifeguards lack of common decency than anything else.

Actually depending upon where the lifeguard is, it may be policy not to make a rescue. A few years back, there was a drowning somewhere on the East coast in which someone was swimming in a no swim area, that was close enough to a lifeguard station, that the guard heard the person, and made the rescue. The lifeguard was later fired for abandoning their station to make the rescue.

I was able to chat with the PL of the patrol that won the orienteering course. He said it was pretty good, just a little too long for the time allowed. And from a Webelos who did it, "It was pretty easy. The fake control points were tricky though." And yes, he was one of my Cubs a few years back and I taught him how to use a compass.

Isn't the purpose of a Camporee to have fun, share some fellowship with other scouts, and generally just be off playing the game of scouting?  How was anything on the line?

Camporees are competitions in this neck of the woods. This year, there was an emphasis on basic Scouting Skills. The Scouts in the troop know there is friction between the two groups of adults. After one committee member respected by both groups talked to the scouts, and got a real honest to goodness read on the situation, He  talked to all the adults. Long story short, things the Scouts wanted to happened did happen. Why things have been OK lately and nothing added to the thread I started back in May. BUT the Scouts also knew that if they gave a serious reason to the "they aren't ready" faction to implement their plan, it would probably happen. Let's just say that I was severely disappointed with them this weekend. I know they can do better. But I also know that they have only been doing this since July, and the way the schedule was implemented, they really only had 1 camp out as a patrol prior to camporee. June was summer camp, July a backpackign trek for the older guys and weekend for those who did it, abot 5.  August was a canoe trek.

I'm hoping the guys realize they screwed up, and get their act together FAST. I really do not want the adults to take over.

The way the course was set up was the following. Courses 1 and 3 had the same controls, just coming from different directions. Courses 2 and 4 were the same way, but Hurricane Matthew destroyed a key component of the course, plus several control points. Course 2 was done on the fly the day of the event, but to my knowledge was not used

Control Points, in addition to being in a certain order, also had false control points. The idea was to make sure the Scouts could accurately do a compass course without running down a trail to the first control point they saw. The though was if they went to the wrong control point and got lost, they could backtrack to the last accurate gate, and reshoot the bearing. Sadly folks quit. 

If memory serves, it is up to the SM on who signs off. SM can be the sole signer, allow other adults to sign, allow youth to sign, or a combination.

My troop only allows adults to sign off at the moment, especially with the performance at the camporee this weekend, As some of you know, there are two factions among the adults in my troop: pro youth-led and the youth have to prove they are readyto lead/adult led. All three patrols performed poorly at the camporee, which has reinforced the they aren't ready faction's position  The two proponents of the they aren't ready faction had a chat while staffing the canoe orienteering, and have come up with a plan to get the S-T-2-1 skills up to speed. They have already talked to the new SM, and it looks like it will be implemented after the first of the year.

The Scouts knew what was on the line before going into camporee.

I believe the '58 is brown covered, but don't quote me on it.  My 196? fieldbook was green covered, if I remember correctly. I read it so much the cover came off  .  Oldest has used it, but cannot have it. I am however afraid to let the middle read it as I already know he's going to wood tools and fires

This topic is near and dear to my heart.

When I was a just crossed over Scout, I wasn't in the troop a month yet, there was an incident at morning church services before school. Long story short, the deacon responding to the situation knew I was a Boy Scout, and expected me to be able to handle it. Thankfully a good bit of it was covered by Readyman Webelos Activity Badge, and I was able to handle it. But that was the first time an adult deferred to me.

A few years later, as a 16 year old Life Scout, another incident happened during Sunday church services. You would think someone in the congregation would have had advanced medical training of some sort. Again, I got called in to render first aid until EMS showed up. Then I had to go with them.

I am a firm believer that a Scout with first aid training, especially First Aid Merit Badge should, emphasizing SHOULD, be able to do handle a situation until EMS arrived. I know First Aid MB is not a credential. To a degree I wish it was. The absolute best first aid training I ever took, and I teach both standard and am now certified WFA instructor, was the First Aid MB class I took way back when. BEST.TRAINING. EVER. I remember a time when WFA was not required to do high adventure activities, because it was expected that a First Class Scout knew enough first aid to take care of any victims until help arrived.

But I also know there is a lot of "one and done" out there. Saw it this weekend first hand. I was assisting with the first aid event, and a patrol of Star and Life Scouts could not remember how to do CPR. Excuse was they don't remember it because they took it their first year of summer camp.

I agree that a Scout should defer to an adult with more knowledge, skills, and abilities. But I would have no problem with a Scout taking over if the adult responder is doing it incorrectly and jeopardizing the victim. I was at one accident where someone who supposedly had some type of advanced first aid/medical training was planning on moving a potential spinal injury victim at a car accident. My girlfriend and I both screamed "NO," and took over from them until a doc showed up at the scene.

I wouldn't ask for ID. #1 in my experience at the hospital A) not many carry their credentials with them, and B) when some airline did that, and rejected a medical resident because they didn't have credentials on them, they are now facing a discrimination lawsuit.