Eagle94-A1

 

That is what I meant by compromise Eagle94. You could create a class that teaches the basics of singing off requirements. Scouts who attend the class are signed off (LOL) to sign off other scouts advancement. You appear to be giving the scouts more maturity. In reality, you are creating some time for the adults to expeirience scouts making mature choices. Once you open that door, I promise time will open it up more. 

If it was just a class, I would have no problem with it. But the adult faction wants a skills check off weekend before even considering anything else. Maybe I'm old school, but I'm a firm believe that the badge represents what the Scouts can do, not what they have done. If they have the badge they should have the skills to no only do it, but teach it. While some Scouts admit they could use some advance warning to prepare for teaching, I don't think  being told "we need to check your skills before you can sign off" makes the Scouts feel like you trust them.

Now I came up with a way to test or review skills, whatever you want to call it, but make it fun and not so obvious that some adults do not trust them. I suggested having a "Scout Olympics" using interpatrol competitions (something we are NOT doing to my chagrin) A) review the skills B) let the SPL and PLs discover who the best Scouts are for particular skills, C) Develop patrol esprit de corps which is severely lacking, and D) Have fun. One member of the adult faction wouldn't even talk to me. Thankfully we are on speaking basis once again.

If a boy discovers these issues, he talks to his fellow scouts (and hopefully a caring and thoughtful adult) about it. We chalk it up to experience and move on.

In the first case above, the Scouts wanted to hold him accountable, but he passed his BOR before it was caught, I bet the Scouts would have caught it before the BOR.

@@Beavah

I know it's a gradual process. Troop has been working on it since for at least 3 years, and was doing well until about 1.5 years ago. For a variety of reasons, we took one giant step backwards, to the point where it's worse than when my joined the troop. When oldest joined the troop on this scale http://scoutmastercg.com/ladder-of-youth-leadership-infographic/ the troop was a 5 and moving towards 4. Now we are a definate 7, with an occasional spike to 6. 

What's so hard is that the troop I grew up in would be a definite 1.

Now I realize every troop is different. I been involved in troops that were not 1s. I've helped troops that were not 1s transition up the scale. But I've noticed that whenever you have changes in adult leadership, or lack thereof, troops slip down.  Especially when you have a bunch of Cub leaders who have to unlearn.

Ok back to the topic. What are some arguments you guys have heard against youth signing off, and what were your counter arguments.

Two BSA publications on wilderness survival, The Complete Wilderness Training Manual, 2d. ed. rev. (DK Publishing, 2007)  and The Survival Handbook,  Essential Skills for Outdoor Adventure, suggest carrying short swords.

 

Boys' Life in June, 2008, and June, 2016 specifically advocate shortish sheath knives.

 

 It's the bubble problem yet again.  Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

I thought

The Complete Wilderness Training Manual, 2d. ed. rev. (DK Publishing, 2007)   suggested a kukri?

I typically carry a Ontario RD-7 and my son carries a Becker BK-9 when we go backpacking.  The cool factor more than compensates for the extra weight.

I so want a BK-21!

Please keep it coming. When we have this meeting, I want to be prepared for every naysayer.

You guys have heard how my troop growing up did it, i.e. PLs, Leadership Corps members, SPL, and SPL appointed others could sign off on T-2-1 ranks up to their rank. Star, Life, and Eagle were adult signatures, usually MBCs because we didn't use blue cards. MBCs signed the book directly.

This is a big deal for me. I know the Scouts, especially the older ones, are chomping at the bit. There have been 4 incidents that have me really pushing Scouts signing off

Incident #1 was the guy who had mom sign off requirements. All of the Scouts were shocked at that, and none but one thought he actually earned it. Morale got so bad that "ranks don't matter." as one Scout put it.

Incident #2 was  when Gunship found out one Scout in the troop 2.5 years was still Scout because " no one worked with him to do the PT." My thought was, if the PLs, or in his case SPL since he is the PL, could sign off, this would have been taken care of a long time ago.

Incident #3 was the canoeing instructors. I knew the SPL didn't have Canoeing MB, he just passed a swim test as a Swimmer two weeks ago FINALLY. But I didn't realize the other Scout teaching not only didn't have the MB, but never took the class at a summer camp. They both did great jobs for first time instructors, and I'm in the process of working with them to earn the MB.

Incident #4 was one of my Scouts, who was once one of my Cubs, leaving his book behind. I admit, I was being nosy, and looked at what he had left for Second and First Class. What was in the book shocked me: a few signatures for Second Class, and only 1 for First Class. This is a Scout who has been in Scouting 2.5 years, and in the troop 1.5, and has been a PL. OK I went ahead and signed off on what I know he has done.

All 4 combined have reemphasized my push for youth-led, and that includes advancement.

Ok folks, we are getting a new SM, adults were told last nite and the youth will be shortly.  All the adults are going to be meeting soon, and one of the things I want to push is Youth signing off on advancement. What I'm asking for is your help. I admit I cannot think on my feet, I need to prepare when I  have an "argument" (classical definition not today's meaning, although if things turn out like the last one I went to it may be today's definition). So I'm asking for every possible argument against letting youth sign off, and reasons, solutions, etc to counter that argument.

I'll begin.

Con# 1 They do not know the skills enough to teach them and sign off.

Pro#1a  If they do not use the skills on a regular basis, and teaching IS (emphasis) using them, then how do we expect 

              them to know the skills? If we tell them they will be teaching, tell them what our expectations are, they will

              perform. (Use example of canoeing instructor for past 2 weeks, who never took a Canoeing MB class).

Pro #1b What better way for them to learn a skill than to give them the expectation that they may need to teach it in the

               future.

Con#2   They are not ready to teach; they don't know how to teach, and variations thereof.

Pro #2a  How can they ever be ready to teach if we do not allow them to teach?

Pro #2b  Then why is using E.D.G.E. a requirement for Tenderfoot and Life ranks, as well as multiple MBs, i.e. First Aid,

               Chess, etc.

Con #3  It's too complicated for the youth to keep track of advancement and signing off, adults need to do it.

Pro #3   It may be complicated with adults trying to keep track of the entire troop, hence the reason why we have Scouts

              in the troop 2+ years who are still waiting for sign offs for Tenderfoot, Second, and First Class, But a PL who is

              taking care of his patrol would have an easier knowing who did what and signing off than adults.

Con #4  It's too easy for the Scouts to abuse, they can withhold signatures ( gives example of such abuse from his

              Scouting days.

Pro #4   It's also easy for a Scout to slip through the cracks like [scout we had issues with], but if we mentor and train the

              PLs and other youth signing off about the importance of being firm, fair, and not abusing it, THEY WILL MEET

              THOSE EXPECTATIONS (emphasis)

Con #5 They play around too much, can't stay off the phone, etc during skills instruction.

Pro #5  Could that be a sign that they are bored with adults teaching? And what better way for behavior problems to be

             solved than to have them conducting the instruction, and seeing how their behavior affects everyone, and is

             modeled by the younger Scouts.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Tuscarora Council, NC also has a camp approx. 50 minutes from Selma, NC train station. They had a HA program 2 years ago, but not last year.

East Carolina Council may be able to help. Wilson, NC station is about 1.5 hours away, and the council has used their passenger vans to transport units from the East Carolina Scout Reservation, home of Camp Boddie (formerly known as Camp Bonner South) and the Pamlico Sea Base, to that station. Don't know if Rocky Mount, NC station is faster to the reservation, but my DE dropped off folks in Wilson.

Yes, they need to cook some things at home now. Glad when oldest took it, he had to plan a non-refrigerated menu. Glad I had a backpacking cookbook for him to use.

I know oldest had some challenges, specifically he "earned" one MB but didn't do 1 requirement. He wants to really earn it, and I got him the supplies, which was suppose to be covered by the summer camp fee. Yep, more money. And after doing canoeing last weekend, I think some of the guys didn't do all of the requirements. And those that earned Chess MB didn't finish everything, but got it. That chaps my son's hide because he has not done 1 requirement, teach someone chess using E.D.G.E., everything else has been done. Hopefully he can teach some of the new Scouts in December/January as everyone knows how to play.

I admit I think summer camp needs to be more fun and less school. I had issues with no free swim being scheduled during the day, and no free boating at all. I rather enjoyed one Scout's solution to going swimming during the day: take Swimming MB all over again. I thought it was great, but I know some adults thought it was a waste of his time. When another one of my Scouts wanted to cancel a MB class that had lots of nighttime activities because he wanted to spend more time doing metal working and being at the forge, I had no problem.

Really?

Who here has denied a candidate because the workbook he started the project with was no longer current at the time of his BoR?

...

Keep the BS out of the BSA.

The DAC that sat on my EBOR. He did not like the fact that A) he did not approve my project and B) it was the 4 year old paperwork that was current when I did it. He tried to do the same thing to a friend who used the then current forms instead of the new forms. Thankfully I threatened to appeal his decision, and my friend did that as well.

And I agree with your last sentence.

My advice  for your son to "Be Prepared" during his EBOR is to not only review the Guide to Advancement and but make sure a copy of it is with him, and I'm paranoid enough to have the passage highlighted. As you can guess, I had experience in this matter.

Great story Latin Scout. ANd I love the new Scouting Adventure requirements. My story regarding Webelos is similar.

My middle son's WDL last year started on Scouting Adventure almost as soon as they became Webelos. They really pushed it, especially Patrol Method, when preparing for the council Webeloree. They made an awesome patrol flag, took a lot of pride in it, and carry it everywherestill. While they didn't win the overall pack award for camporee, the comments that made my day were: "wow they got their act together"; "are they crossing over tonight"; and "they are better than some Scout patrols." Yep, they did everything on their own with minimal guidance from the WDL or CM ("When you guys think dinner should start?") and only 1 assist from an adult (Judge to the WDL, "Why don't you help them hammer in the stakes since the other DLs did that.")

I think this is characteristic of the generation.  Not to criticize, just an observation.  They have been "spoon fed" everything, at home, at school, and yes, even at Scouts.  It's not that they don't WANT to take initiative, they don't know how, because they've never been expected to.  I saw it 10 years ago when I was unit scouting, and I think it's even worse now.  They wait for direction.  When given direction, they willingly react, do just what was suggested, nothing more, nothing less.  They think if it's not suggested, it's not up to them to think of it.  IT frustrates me at work, because my management style is to tell them what the end point needs to look like, then get out of the way and let them figure out all the intermediate steps.  They don't know how to do it without step-by-step direction.  

Yes, some are spoon fed and do not want to take initiative. BUT, there are those who when they do take initiative are swatted down by adults who take over. Yes, they may need some guidance on thinking outside of the box, i.e. "Why can't you do what you suggested?" and "How can you adapt that game to the activity?" But I've found it's the adults who cause the problems. As BLW2 posted :

"1) he knows the adults are planning and driving things, so why bother?"

We had a retired Marine MGySgt. work at my camp for over 20 years. First Year Camper director was his position, and if he signed off in your book, you MASTERED the skill. Since I didn't go to summer camp my first year as a Scout, I missed out on him then. However I ran into him for mt religious award BOR. Intimidating is an understatement. I also had the pleasure of working with him on camp staff. Great man.

I'm waiting to find out what's going on, and it's all up to my boys as to what they want to do. With new leadership comes new vision. Plus Gunship made the comment about leaving after July, and also that he wants to help get the troop that has had some problems out. Now that troop meets on the same nite as us.

SWMBO was a Venturing leader once upon a time, is into camping and backpacking, and really wants the crew started. When she was asked to be an AA once before, she almost lept at the opportunity, but had family issues and  couldn't.

Me personally, I want top start a Sea Scout ship.

Update. It's been confirmed we are getting a new SM, and it's the heir apparent. He's been ''neutral'' seeing both sides of the factions. He's in the process of arranging ALL registered adults, committee and direct contact, to have a sitdown meeting in the next 3 weeks and iron things out. Formal change will be at next COH.

Going to be interesting.

IMHO, all the rules and regs attached to the various requirements are the results of lawyers, both real and "guardhouse." The article talks about the lawsuit side.  I've seen once, and heard a bunch of stories on how someone got an appeal because the requirements were not clear, or misinterpreted by the adults.

I don't think they will ever bring up the nights of camping. When 4 camp outs and summer camp are the bare minimum for JTE, there is a lack of knowledge at the top that "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" Heck the last edition of tjhe BS HB even had that quote,and the math that backs it up, wrong.

I hate to say it, but talking to a troop doesn't cut it. You gotta VISIT a troop, at a meeting and go CAMPING with a troop.  I know of adults who will say they are youth led, when in fact they do all of the work.

Not an EBOR, but some standard BORs I've done in the field. Long story short, one unit was having problems getting enough adults from the troop to sit. Did 2 BORs at the camporee around the fire with folks from the district committee. SM was getting frustrated with the committee, or lack thereof, and took care of his Scouts.

... there was a story about someone that missed his ECOH because he went to war in WWII (so, not in bad taste). Anyway, when the guy was something like 85 years old he decided to have his ECOH.

Col. Mitchell Paige, USMC. Actually he enlisted in the Marines before he could have the COH.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Paige

One of my Eagles didn't have his ECOH, and almost didn't have an EBOR. He did the Delayed Entry Program, going to basic and being in the reserves for a year while he finished HS, and when the EBOR was convened once he returned from basic, it was discovered that it was after the after 18 EBOR deadline a council could do, and he had to appeal to national. By the time that process was done, he had his EBOR, and it was approved he went on active duty.

As @@dfolson stated, you are not suppose to be able to pick of the Eagle presentation kit, or any extra patches and knots, until the paperwork comes back from national. So I would definitely wait until then.

I also know that there are some old school units out there that still do not present the ranks until the COH. That may be a consideration.

My troop growing up didn't give the rank until the ECOH. I attended a friends' ECOH with a Life patch on still, but stood up when they asked for all Eagles to stand to be recognized.

I know I was in "culture shock" when I worked at Kingsdown International Scout Campsite (now it's no longer a Scout camp) and Youlbury International Scout Campsite (now called an Activity Centre).

BSA summer camps are outdoor merit badge schools. Quality of instruction varies, and I' sorry to say mine needs some work. I discovered that Oldest "earned" a MB that he didn't complete a requirement on that they ran out of supplies for them to complete it. Thankfully he told me what happened, and he is working on the missing requirement today since the kit is now in. I don't know why it wasn't put in the advancement report we got, but the staff will be hearing about it soon. I think some of my other scouts also got merit badges that they didn't complete.

While there are now 4 national high adventure bases, a bunch of local councils have created high adventure bases, or HA programs run form their summer camps.  WHile they are organized by the camp, there is a lot of variation. Some programs have a rough outline already in place, others have a set of options for the units to chose form either before they arrive, or shortly after. One program I know of has the unit meet the ship's captain the first day in camp, and they not only pick their destinations, but what activities to do at the destinations.

  I can't stand the current dysfunction between packs and troops.  And that's what it is, dysfunction.  

 

WELL SAID!

Had an interesting conversation with the wife about this. One suggestion she offered that I hadn't thought of is that since it's the Older Scouts who are doing a lot of the complaining and being bored, and since the CO does want to start a Venturing Crew, and since they have been trying to get the wife  to be involved with the new crew, is that I start the Venturing crew and by the time it's fully underway, oldet will be able to join.

I just cannot handle the adults treating the Scouts like Cubs.

Interesting night, Talked to the incoming SM about he need for an adult meeting to go over the problem of adults interfering.

I'm on beer #2.

Actually he was nominated by one scout, and seconded by another. No self nomination or adult nominations allowed.

I think part of the problem is that whatever plans the Scouts do make, adults interfere. They get frustrated to the point of 'Why bother?"  It's interesting in that while chatting with the SPL and another Scout about the meeting I'm "in charge of" and letting them come up with stuff to do, there was a vitality in the chat I have not seen in them for some time.

My job tonite is to keep the adults out of the way. Gunship is making suggestions to improve the meeting, and I have a feeling I will need to ring him in. Especially for part of the night. Instead of usual "do this, do that, ..." instruction on familiarizing with canoes, they guys plan on doing some games. It will be organized chaos, that I hope A) will allow them to work on skills and B) have FUN, and C) Show the adults that you need to let the Scout do their thing.

Since today is the 109th anniversary of the founding of the Scouting Movement at Brownsea Island, may I give a history lesson?  Brownsea was an experiment, BP wanted to test his ideas before writing them down. There were 22 Scouts divided among the Wolves, Bulls, Ravens, and CURLEWS ( ). Two patrols had 5 boys each, and two patrols had 6. Somehow BP figured out that 6 is the minimum a patrol should have.

He may have realized 8 is the optimum number based upon Brownsea, or maybe other experiences, i.e. his military  experience. Maybe he got the idea for 8 from the BOYS BRIGADE organization, that BP initially tried to get Scouting incorporated into their program.