Eagle94-A1

So, I posted the plan for tomorrow that the Scouts came up with, editing out that they are doing the lesson and making it appear that I am doing instead. One of the adults sent me some suggestions. What I find funny is that A) I've been doing and teaching canoeing for over 25 years,  and the plan the Scouts posted is 95% what I would do normally, and they think my 5% suggestion makes sense and are going to add it. B) Last time we planned for 2 meetings in the water, something came up and it ended up being 1, and C) Part of the "lecturing" is being done while the canoes are being unloaded by the older Scouts, which is in the plan.

Maybe some folks just cannot stand not being in control?

I admit, I like six month election cycles. Part of that is I think if you elect a poor leader, you do need to deal with the results. After all in the real world, there are very few recall laws on the books. Part of it is that I've seen school extracurriculars happen in cycles, and they tend to be 6 month cycles.

But I really do not like the rule my troop has:you cannot run for reelection except after a 6 month break. Sorry if you can handle the jon for another 6 month term, and your peers vote for you, you should be able to do it.

Funny thing about the second suggestion, they were joking around coming up with what they thought were crazy ideas, then when it went to put down what they were doing, completely ignored their crazy ideas. I had to say they forgot them and they needed to be added to the list to chose some. I could visualize the faces when I told them that.

Now you just have to come up with an urgent project that the adult-led faction needs to handle durng the meeting to keep them occupied - like getting all of the black off the Dutch Ovens.

ACTUALLY, I was reminded that several of the adult faction had not taken swim tests this year. So they are non0-swimmers and can't do boating unless they ride with an adult.

Unfortunately more of the Youth led faction are in the same boat, and 1 is Aquatics Supervision certified.

"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

I had a nice chat with the 2 Scouts in charge of the meeting Monday. They had a good plan, they agreed with one suggest as it "makes sense," and then really liked a second suggestion, and took off with it. So far so good.

@@Stosh

True, some parent's don't get it, and don't want to get it. Remember the Scout we had advancement issues with? Only time we really talked to mom was when behavioral issues arose, and then it was our fault for not bringing it to her attention earlier! Um, invited you to parents' meetings to discuss how things operate and how we do things, and you never showed up.

The issue I'm discussion is adult Scouters who either been through the program, or have completed training, and still don't act like Cub Scout leaders. Yes, I admit I needed deprogramming, but some folks just are not getting it.

@@TAHAWK

Why I believe in starting the Webelos-to-Scout Transition as soon as possible. Whenever my Cubs had the opportunity to see Boy Scouts in action, I took it. When I begged a troop to invite my old den of Webelos and parents to camp with them, it was because I wanted the Webelos and parents to see what Boy Scouts can do. Starting the process in 5th grade is too late IMHO.

I'm going to channel @@Kudu and pull some quotes he has on his website:

One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction.

--Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918.

And from Green Bar Bill

The Game of Scouting

To an outsider, Scouting must at first appear to be a very complex matter. If it were only possible to swing the gates of Scouting wide open to him and show him from a vantage point in one immense view the full panorama of the Scout Movement! Under the open sky he would see gathered hundreds of thousands of wide awake, red-blooded boys, busily occupied with self-appointed tasks, practices expected and required of real Scouts, ranging from the sending of signals with flags from hill-top to hill-top, to lighting a fire by primitive means—all living, breathing, absorbing Scouting.

The boys swarm around him, and as one of them runs by he asks him: "Tell me, what is Scouting?

As the boy passes, his smile and his answer come back: "Scouting is fun!"

He bends over a boy who seems to have forgotten his surroundings, completely absorbed in preparing a simple outdoor meal, and asks the same question.

And the boy answers as he looks up wonderingly: "Scouting is adventure!"

A bunch of Scouts, led by one of their number, comes running and, as they draw near, their answer sings out: "Scouting is comradeship!"

Thus the boys define their own activity, their game. And GAME—that is the word.

To a boy Scouting is a game, a magnificent game, full of play and full of laughter, keeping him busy, keeping him happy.

That is the strength of Scouting! A boy becomes a Scout for the sheer fun there is in it.

The action in Scouting appeals to the boy’s impulse to be doing something. The meetings, hikes and camps are essentially periods of activity. Even the code of Scout conduct is presented to him in terms of action—"Be Prepared," "Do a Good Turn Daily." In fact, the basic principle in Scouting is "Learning by Doing." There is nothing negative in it. There is no "Go up in the attic and see what Johnny is doing and tell him he mustn’t!" There are no "Don’ts." Scouting does not say "Don’t rob bird’s nests," but "Find out about birds." It does not say "Don’t cut down trees," but instead "Help save the trees." That is talking boy language—stimulating, not prohibiting.

There is adventure in Scouting. There is adventure in tackling a job alone—all by oneself, or with the gang. There is adventure in finding Good Turns to do every day. There is adventure in pioneering, exploring, out-door living.

There is companionship and fellowship in the Patrol, the natural unit in Scouting. There is always present an urge to achieve. A harder task, a higher rank always looms ahead; there is distinction to be gained.

Here, then, is Scouting in a nutshell: A game for boys under the leadership of boys with the wise guidance and counsel of a grown-up who has still the enthusiasm of youth in him. A purposeful game, but a game just the same, a game that develops character by practice, that trains for citizenship—through experience in the out-of-doors.

The problem IMHO is that adults either A) having never experienced Boy Scouts take the Cub Scout leader model and apply it to working with Boy Scouts and B) Adults who have Boy Scout experience either forget what it's suppose to be about, or need "deprogramming" from Cub Scout leader mode.

As stated earlier, some adults do not have the patience to handle the organized chaos of Patrol Method.

I'm going off topic slightly as it does have some relevance. This week has been a long stressful one for me, not only because of what I found out about Monday's meeting, but also everything else going on in my personal and work life.  With finding out that things went backwards Monday, I completely forgot about a conversation last weekend until I was talking to oldest.

Anyway, I found out that the troop that has had problems over the past few years will be getting a new adult as an ASM, and may possibly take over as SM.  The CM of my pack, who is good friends with the SM, and has actually influenced him to do some stuff I suggested the CM suggest to the SM, will be going there. So out of my old den, I see 2 definates, and 1 possible coming to the troop I'm in. Hopefully the rest will remain with the troop. Fresh leadership is a good thing, and the CM taking over as SM may be a very good thing. He gets Scout-led. I found this out talking to Gunship because he has talked to all the CM and SM about "helping" them out. I know back in May, Gunship made a comment about after July he's leaving, so maybe he's going to join them. Considering the schedule he and his sons have, their meeting night is a better fit. Plus I found out our SM may be stepping down. And the reason Gunship and his sons joined us was because of his old SM.

So the biggest proponent of adult led may be moving. Also if the other troop can keep the Webelos they get A) we won't have a massive group of 23 new Scouts and B) that troop can stay alive and grow. Some folks do like adult led.

As for the conversation with oldest, it was interesting. He's come to realize that as much as he likes working with the new Scouts, if he wants change, he needs to be SPL again. He'll be running next election.

Thanks for the solid points. I gotta work on language. And also how things are presented. When I talk to the Scouts, I try to leave things as open ended as possible. But I to automatically give orders at times. That does make a difference.

The SM's Minute is off limits UNLESS the SM is not there. Part of that is that he is a wealth of knowledge. Part of it is the SM is declining in his abilities, and the SM's Minute is a big deal for him that we do not want to take away. I'm hoping that the SM realizes that the troop is in good hands for him to step down. We had an AT crew, a summer camp, and two prep backpacking trips either without him involved, or  meeting us and having lunch for us.

As for the PLC, unfortunately they do very little. In the past they met 2-3 times a year, yes you heard me a year. I've tried to get not only the SPL, but also the SM and lead ASM, but the Scouts do not seem interested, and the  the adults don't have the time for another meeting.

As for the boy-led faction taking stuff on and letting youth run it, that's my game plan. And every single chance I get, I praise the Scouts in front of the adult led faction. Not only does it build up the self-confidence of the Scouts, which I'm afraid to say is lacking in some BUT that's because they have not been given the chance to shine, but I'm trying to remind the adults that the Scouts can do it. But because of the way the adults have divided with responsibilities, it does indeed get interesting.

As for the "chain of command" communications,  That is something the ADULTS need to work on, and a few of the Scouts.

As for abbreviations, SSD= Safe Swim Defense, and SA= Safety Afloat. I'm still certified in both Aquatic Supervision programs, and am a BSA Lifeguard, so the swimming and boating is my game.

Get a big banner for your next meeting that says "Never do Anything a Boy Can Do for Themselves - And That is Pretty Much Everything."

That or put up a banner saying "Coffee, donuts,  and card games for leaders in XYZ room"

Seriously though

This is the problem. How does a patrol counselor differ from a patrol leader? It is an invitation to interfere. This is one of my pet issues with our Troop. The adults sitting in on the patrol meetings get too involved because they feel it is necessary to get the right result (I've been in that situation) not recognizing that as @@Stosh says the right result is the ones the boys come up with.

That is the problem. We got leaders acting like den leaders and not Boy Scout leaders.

Otherwise, when things go amok, the adult will always get blamed first and no adult wants to be in that position.  This is a program of success/fail on the part of the boys, not the adults. 

And what the adults do not understand is that there interference is making matters worse.

On a different note, SM put me in charge of this meeting coming up. I've already talked to the SPL and one of the older Scouts to run it. I plan on being the SSD and SA guy.

I'd say that in general, across the land, patrol method and patrol leaders are under-utilized and SPLs are over-utilized.  That arises partly from age-based patrols where younger PLs aren't as capable, but mostly it's a function of adults not knowin' how to make that work.  Da SPL-and-helpers model of youth leadership is easier for adults to grok.   Patrols take more time.

UNDERSTATEMENT! (emphasis, ok maybe yelling at the top of my lungs in agreement with ya )

The patrol method DOES work if adults do not interfere with it. It's messy, organized chaos, and takes patience and time to do it right. BUT in the long run, it is nor only the easiest, but the best way to do things.

I'm going back to my youth days and experiences, so bear with me.

PLs are responsible for their patrols. They make sure menus, shopping, duty rosters, etc are done. They delegate different aspects of patrol life, i.e patrol QM, patrol scribe, etc, and help those individuals out as needed. They make sure the members of their patrol are learning, and for the mixed aged patrols, advancing up to First Class. They also represent the patrol at the PLC, and bring down duties and responsibilities that the PLC may assign, i.e. Hawks have cleanup this month, Ravens are doing the ceremonies, etc. In a nutshell, their job is to take care of their patrol members

SPL was the one with respsonibility for the entire. He was responsible for organizing the PLC meetings and making sure that stuff that needed to be done gets done, i.e. meetings are planned, camp outs planned, fundraiser is organized, etc. Some things would be assigned to PLs and patrols, sometimes things woud be assigned to the older Scouts in the Leadership Corps as it was called. IMHO one of the most important parts of the SPL's job is to counsel and mentor the PLs. I know when I was a new PL, the SPLs were the ones I went to for advice and encouragement. Whern I was ASPL, I did a lot of counseling and mentoring.

In all honesty, you could read Green Bar Bill's entire Brownsea 22 syllabus, and still only get a general idea of everything being a PL or SPL entails. And part of that is each Scout is different.

Do I understand you correctly? The unit was given their "marching orders" and they failed to comply?

 

Did you comply? Did your son comply?

Unit was not given marching orders, the adults were. Adults were suppose to have specific responsibilities, basically be "patrol counselors" for their assigned patrol which did not include their own son, except for the venture patrol ASM. However my responsibility is to work with the SPL and ASPL when the lead ASM cannot, and to back up the assigned patrol counselors if they are not in attendance, inlcuding my son's patrol, if needed.. The challenge is that there have been NO (emphasis) opportunities for the patrols to work together as a patrol, with the exception of the venture patrol we have. Only reason they are "clicking" is that they are actually doing stuff as a patrol, although not the entire patrol. A few of their members are having some real issues with the troop, as well as family.

By failing to comply, because activities have been a hodgepodge, leaders are working with whomever shows up as there hasn't been any camp outs utilizing the patrol method. So instead of leaders working with everyone, including their own sons, and that has caused some issues in the past.

As for me, yes I'm complying, but it is frustrating to see when others are not. As for son, he's one of the junior leaders in the troop, so he is one of the troop officers under the SPL.

     If you were involved with Cub Scouting, this is a very different role that can take some time getting   

     used to."

That's the problem, the folks in the adult led faction, even if they should know better, have only been out of Cub Scouts 18 months tops and are in Cub mode. Issues with our NSP have not helped matters.

IMHO, knowing the end vision is great.  Knowing how it's to work is great.  ... but when it comes to reality ... troops need to continually re-adjust to the mix of scouts and adults ... and continually look for the next way to improve.   Don't sweat the troop is not perfect.  Just always look for what can we do better.  And, have fun.  

That is what is getting not only me, but also the older Scouts frustrated: we are not improving, but regressing. And as a result, with the exception of one or two activities, the Scouts are not having fun. And I fear we are going to lose them.

I admit I don't know much about Mic-O-Say, nor have I met any members to my knowledge. But some of the actions and attitudes I've read here remind me of some of the OA members and lodges I've ran into over the years. One lodge in particular is coming to my mind about their attitude and actions, which caused the area director to get involved at a conclave!

Like any organization, it is comprised of a variety of members. Some are good, and some go overboard.

@@fred johnson

Part of the challenge is that the SM is not doing what he is suppose to do. Not trying to blame him, but his age and physical condition are factors involved. Hopefully he will be retiring soon as he has left a gap so to speak.  The "Heir Apparent" has challenges too, mostly job related, and I've been asked to help the SPLs out. So I have been directed to help out.

The challenge is there IS (emphasis) not only a lack of unified vision, but also when the SM does give all of us ASMs our marching orders (happened twice to date) the very next meeting or two everything changes not only without any input from the Scouts, but also from the adults as a whole. Best example was when the PLC came up with a  plan to deal with the NSP problem, and the SM gave us our marching orders based upon that PLC. Two weeks later, everything changes, new marching orders come about, and their was no input from the Scouts, or all of the leaders as a whole. It was an instance where a leaders' meeting was called at the last minute when none of the Boy-Led faction above were able to attend. That change really ticked off the majority of the Scouts in the troop. Funny thing is, since that meeting, NONE (emphasis) of the marching orders were really followed through except the older Scouts going on the AT.

@@Hedgehog,

I'd say 6.5 to 7. We are that bad IMHO. Challenge is that the Scout have been trained, and some have had teaching opportunities that did very well in. The Scout who was suppose to run and teach this week helped me teach First Aid 2 years ago. The Adult-led faction above  want to put adult expectations in order to teach and lead, yet the only way for the Scouts to get the experience is to let them do it, fail if need be, and learn from it. Adult led wants to treat everyone like new Scouts until they prove they have the skills, and then they might teach them. Giant catch that is going to destroy the troop.

I'm going to do my best to keep from getting frustrated. While I care about all of the Scouts in the troop, #1 priority is my son. We've talked,  and he wants to give it to the end of the year in order to if things improve. We'll see.

'Nope, no adult, an immediate election, i.e. vote of confidence in the SPL.  I don't do troop elections.  My SPL was always selected by the PL's as to who will support them and they determine how long that SPL stays in that position.   Having the troop elect Mr. Popularity instead of a servant leadership PL creates more hassle than if the PL's just pick their own.  It was surprising that my PL's picked one of their APL's to be SPL.  This APL was doing a fantastic job supporting the PL, the other PL's figured he'd be a good choice to support them too.  :)"

That's just it, he's "popular" because he is a servant leader. When things go wrong on camp outs, when the old NSP and TG had challenges, when things need to get done, he's your man. Great Scout, knows his stuff, but doesn't want to get involved with planning and organizing weekly meetings. I do not know why that is, but I do have a suspicion. I have asked him, and he's said "I'm lazy." He may say it, but his actions when needed prove otherwise.

Maybe they should be listening to their PL's instead.  SPL should be supporting the PL's not dictating to the troop.  Yes, the SPL "runs the troop" by making sure all the PL's are successful in their patrol method operations.

Agree, but the PLs are taking their lead from him. Plus at the moment, there is ZERO (emphasis) patrol spirit. The PLs are just following long.

Ever consider telling the other adults about boy led, patrol method policies of the BSA? 

And this is why the unit's boy led operation is not boy led, it's adult messed with at the minimum.

Trust me, I've talked, tried to persuade, and even argued about this. I'd say there are 3 factions within the leaders: Boy-Led Faction (me and 2 others, although 1 Scout and his dad/leader may be looking for a new troop as they have missed the last month's worth of meetings), Adult-Led (Gunship from the other discussion and 2 others who are new to Boy Scouts and still in Cub Mode IMHO), and the "Compromise" Faction of the SM and an ASM who are trying to mediate the two groups.

The problem is not your boys, the problem is your adults making up stupid rules and messing with boy led, patrol method scouting.

UNDERSTATEMENT IF I EVER HEARD ONE! (emphasis, ok maybe a little shouting in frustration with you   )

Regarding rules, I admit I like the rules in place in my troop as I think they made sense. Anyone could be a PL, regardless of rank, experience, age etc. However SPL and ASPL did have some requirements: 1) First Class or higher rank and 2) Had to have been a PL.  First Class or higher made sense because they had the basics mastered so they could help out as needed. Having been a PL also made sense because how can you be expected to help a PL if you haven't had experience as a PL? And the ASPL had to have the same requirements as SPL because if the SPL stepped down, or didn't perform his duties, ASPL was automatically took over as SPL. I don't know who came up with them, the Scouts or SM, but we kept them as they made sense to us. 

Apparently so. Sad thing is that my tests were pretty much worthless IMHO as I not only got very little sleep, the primary event that caused me to get the test done didn't occur during the test. It occured last nite once again. So I missed a meeting for nothing. 

I think having an adult replace the unwilling SPL would do more damage than help in the current situation the troop is in. I think it would destroy what little Scout spirit they have. The Scouts are willing to do whatever the SPL asks of them. Maybe I'm as interfereing as the the other adults trying to get him and the others more involved. Maybe not. But I don't like the situtation I'm in as i think I'm walking a fine line.

When elections occurred the adults made some interesting rules.One of them was that the ASPL had to be elected from the younger Scouts. Person who was elected had never held any POR before, and now is suddenly ASPL. Lots of on the job training that should have occurred in earlier roles is now being done IMHO. And that is when he is at meetings. Because of the family situation, he's not at meetings or camp outs all the time.

Ok I admit I do too much for the troop. I've explained, demonstrated, and have tied to guide the SPL into planning and running the meetings. He only ranfor SPl because he felt obligated to as he was nominated. He really doesn't want the job, and it shows.

Since he was out of town this week on the AT, I asked him prior to leaving what he wanted done for the meeting. He said stick with the plan:canoeing. So I asked one of the older Scouts not going to come up with a plan.  I even told the SM that this week's meeting was all arranged.

I had to miss because of some medical tests yesterday. So today whenI asked the Scout how it went yesterday, I was told the SM did a great job teaching, but he didn't do any. The I get a message on Facebook that the leaders discussed meeting earlier next week at a different location to put into place what was taught by the SM.

I'm am so frustrated right now.

Don't I know it. I personally beleive alot of the problems the troop has had is because of adult over involvement.

And you know me, I may want them to go to a specific camp, i may promote and advertise a specific camp, but I let the Scouts decide and go where they want to go.

I have seen no one leave because of the ban. I know it was an issue, but then died out. People my area seem to not care about it. Personally, I do not know why it was a big deal...then again I grew up with people who were gay.

Back when DALE was announced it was going to SCOTUS, I had a CO tell me they would no longer charter a pack. I had until the end of the School year, about 4 months, for the pack to find a new CO as they would no longer be allowed on the property.

When BSA changed the youth membership standards, we lost a bunch leaders, donors, and an entire troop went to Trails Life. In fact, it was the troop my son first visited and wanted to join. Our membership number in my district have dropped, and it looks as if we may have to merge with another district because we do not have enough youth members to justify a DE.

When BSA changed the leadership standards, the CO of my pack had a meeting with the CM and SM about how they will not allow any homosexual leaders in the troop, and that if they are forced to take them, the units would be dropped I a heartbeat.

So it's affected my area.

I would love to say the Scouts, but it's complicated.

3 years ago, it was suggested to try something new by one of the ASMs. Boys agreed, and we went there and had a good time. When it came around  to last year, unanimous decision was to go back to that camp, which we did.

This year got interesting. I don't know if one of the ASMs got involved or not, but the SPL put his foot down at the planning meeting with the PLC saying we needed to go back to our home camp this summer, which we did. I know the adults talked about trying to convince the Scouts to go back to the home camp, so I don't know if this ASM had a word with the SPL or not. Good news everyone had a great time, and talking to everyone all but one Scout, mine, wants to go back again next summer. But that same ASM made a comment about going to a camp in the mountains. I have mixed emotions. One on hand the camp is new and has some great programs. On the other hand it is a drive, and much more expensive than the home camp. And I will have 2 Boy Scouts at that point.

_{I don't agree with you that youth know things better than adults.}

 

_{Scouting is a game for boys, and I agree that we adults should step back and let the boys play their game.  We adults are a little bit too old to be playing a boy's game, aren't we?}

 

_{We should not forget, however, that this game is adult owned and adult supervised.}  

 

_{I have spent a lifetime teaching kids.  I can tell you from experience that kids are generally not wiser or more competent than adults.  They're still learning.}

 

_{We do occasionally do see a very gifted child who can outshine his teachers, but this is the exception, not the rule.}

_{I beg to differ. School and Scouting are two different animals. You cannot compare the two based upon my experiences as an educator and as a Scouter. School is regimented, disciplined, and has a hierarchy to instill knowledge. Scouting, especially old school Scouting as envisioned by BP, is a thing of self-learning. The Scouts do things on their own with SMs to guide and mentor, not supervise. You go to other countries, and Scouts will camp as patrols on their own without any adults present.  In the US, that is no longer the case since about 4 years ago.} 

_{In my 34 years in Scouting, the youth had a better understanding of each others' capabilities than the adults. When adults influence elections, appoint leaders, create patrols, ad nauseum it creates problems.  I'm experiencing that right now as some of the leaders have decided to create patrols, set ridiculous requirements for various leadership positions, etc. The Scouts are not happy with the adult over-involvement, and it is showing: no patrol spirit, no desire to camp or attend meetings, etc. The youth feel they have no ownership in the troop, and it is starting to show. And I've seen this in every single troop that has too much adult involvement. I'm hoping with the new SM, things will improve.}

_{The troop that my pack's CO's has is very much adult led: APLs, PLs, SPL, etc are all appointed; adults create the calendar without any input from the youth, etc. Currently they are dying as folks are either aging out, or earning Eagle and quitting. The youth have no ownership in the unit, and it shows.}

_{And while a CO does have every right to approve, or disapprove, unit leadership and membership, if a CO was to remove a SPL without the APPEARANCE (emphasis) of a good reason to all of the youth in a unit, you can bet the other Scouts will take notice, and it will lower morale, patrol and troop spirit, etc. Unilaterally removing a youth because they are not doing a good job, because of the relationship with the SM, etc are not good reasons IMHO. Scouts will have that in the back of their minds.}

_.

It's always important to be paranoid BEFORE the accidents....

Question is am I paranoid enough?