WisconsinMomma

My son picked his troop because they played some ball oriented game in the gym before their meetings and he liked that.

I'm troop secretary. Thanks for the feedback.

OK guys, so now I have to decide how much of a rabble rouser to be at tonight's committee meeting. Do I... a) suggest the candy fundraiser as something for the PLC/Troop to consider (I would offer to coordinate if the Troop wants to pursue it). b) suggest that the boys pick their own summer camp destination and have choices, although there is already a deposit on the 2018 summer camp venue? c) smile and nod d) look for opportunities to ask - what do the boys think of that? e) ask what the PLC has been working on lately Thanks for your help! Honestly I am tired and I'm hoping for a short meeting.

Scouts can choose their own troops, and your district should back you up on that. Have fun!

Yes, I think there is a disconnect between AOL and Boy Scouts. My den of AOL Scouts did all the Boy Scout Adventure requirements last year. We basically did the book. Throughout Cub Scouting we worked through the handbooks, and honestly I was not thinking at all about Boy Scout preparation until the AOL year, or 7 months, as it really is. The boys in my den went through the Boy Scout prep but the parents weren't all there, it wasn't a parents intro to the BSA course. My main motivation was to encourage interest in the boys crossing over and for the boys to pick a troop. Their troop picking was easy, they had a good visit at the troop they went to, some of the boys knew other boys who were there, and another boy went to another troop where his brother was. I think the boys were very basically prepared for Boy Scouts, but obviously they were not pre-working the Scout / Tenderfoot ranks or anything like that. One troop adult met with parents while the boys visited the Troop and gave a little talk but it was more of a recruiting speech. My oldest is a scout who had a tough time when he started, and he is not the easiest. He is the kid who wanders off to go look at rocks or bugs or frogs or whatnot, and that is a problem. We managed to get around an adult who complained to us (he wanted us to constantly hover over our kid). My husband goes to alleviate the burden on the patrol, but everyone kind of helps him get back to the task. He takes medication and a social skills class, so we are working on things beyond boy scouts to help. If the boy in your troop has any similar social or attention issues that make it difficult for him to fit in, I can see why the parents worry more. I worry a ton. We are 1.5 years in and now I'm more relaxed, but it took nearly the whole first year for me to get the hang of it, to see my son be successful (loosely) on campouts, and in that time, we have seen him get better at some small things. One day he went up to talk to the SM on his own without prompting to get something signed off. That is a big deal. He's getting a lot better at things like packing for trips, etc. But it's one baby step at a time. Your relationship with the parents will build one baby step at a time too. It takes repetition and experience to build those skills and confidence. I remember badgering two ASMs because I really wanted to know if there would be opportunities for my son to get some cooking stuff checked off at a campout, because he needed some cooking stuff signed off, and there are only so many campouts, so if he wasn't able to cook and have the right opportunities at the camp in the spring, he might have to wait until summer camp or another time. I hoped that he would get a chance to do the cooking stuff. The first answer I got from the first ASM was vague. He is a cooking MB counselor and he's been around forever and so he probably gave a glossed over answer when I was looking for reassurance on the details, so I asked another ASM more point-blank -- will these cooking skills be specifically covered because I'm worried about it. The ASM said yes, and said that of course it's up to whether the scouts do the skills, and I said, yes, I just want to make sure the opportunity is there. Note that an adult does all the grocery shopping for our Troop and it doesn't sound exactly like patrol cooking but I'm not there so I don' t know exactly whats' going on. So you could describe me as hyper-focused on advancement, and perhaps I was. I don't get to see a lot of what's going on at Scouts but I can read the handbook and see where my sons are at on the requirements and talk to them about that. It sounds like you are very angry and so maybe you want to refer this scout family to a different adult to work with? Would that help? You know they are right that an 11 year old is a child. Anyone under 18 is legally a minor and that's their definition. Growing up is a lot of baby steps. They are worried over their precious child and to a degree it is totally understandable. I know you care but no one cares more about that kid than his parents. If I were to tell an SM/ASM that my kid was losing interest, it would be like I was asking for help to keep the kid more engaged. What are some good strategies for that? Finding the kid a compatible buddy to work with, making the program more interesting, probably asking your PLC for ways they can make their meetings more fun... they are identifying a problem for the troop to help with. I can say with my boys I would love for them to become Eagle scouts, but we totally understand it's a long road, and we might not get there. Right now we're on the swimming skills baby step. Wish us all luck! I hope to end up with boys that know how to swim and cook and a few other things. For me, the basic life skills, cooking, personal fitness, personal finance are all super-valuable. Getting reinforcement of that from BSA is great. I sincerely love MBs and that's OK. ETA: Is there a way to get some detachment from the situation to make these issues less painful for you? Safety questions need to be addressed, they are important questions and the parents may just need reassurance and hand holding. That's OK. Maybe you have a pat answer like, we follow all the rules in the guide to safe scouting, we use the buddy system, we supervise x, y and z. Are there follow up questions you can ask to get to their concerns? Do they just need some reassurance that their kid is doing OK? Or if he's not doing OK, that that is OK and the Troop is working with him to help things along? The parents are your partners, and you are on the same team, really!

If the young lady comes from a well-connected family, I'd think she hardly needs Eagle Scout on her pre-college resume to achieve her life goals. Women have been achieving great accomplishments sans Eagle Scout designations... for all of history. I hope the effort to join early is not political, and really just a true desire to have the full experience. Anyway, it's not my circus or clowns.

I don't understand why you feel personally insulted because a parent with little camping experience is concerned about their child's safety. It's natural for a parent to worry over their kids as they try new things. When my oldest first joined Boy Scouts I worried every time he was away from home, not so much for safety but for getting along with others and having a good time, staying involved, etc.etc. It takes some time to switch from Cub to Boy Scout mode, it's not automatic. If in Cubs kids are getting things checked off every meeting, then it's very different to switch over to Boy Scouts, and what I"ve found is that there's not a lot of communication with parents. My husband goes with our son, so as the parent who's not at all the meetings, it took longer for me to get the info for how things work, and then to understand the process. And I have done research and reading on the internet to try to get it Advancement is complicated, look at all the steps of blue cards and how they go. It's a lot. And parents want to know how it all works and they should. They should be informed of camping details and have their questions answered about how things generally work. It's OK for parents to want to be in the loop and develop a comfort level and it takes time to get settled with a new way of doing things. I am surprised when people here have said that kids should be ready to rock in Boy Scouts straight out of Cubs. There's a huge learning curve for parents and scouts. Try not to take every question and concern as offensive. I would be unsatisfied with old equipment too, no one wants to hear that there is only one working stove for a large group. That's a problem that needs to be fixed and it's understandable parents will be interested in seeing that issue resolved. There is a leap of faith to let your young son go out camping and struggle with difficult new things. It's not easy to do that. And parents are involved, and they should be. I should tease Stosh about riding his bike uphill in the snow both ways to his BSA meetings as a child. Parents are involved, and they need to know about how things work and most important, why they work the way they do, why it's important. Use the time of questions to build relationships and trust with the families, and try to answer without judgement. I know it's the same questions over and over and that's part of the job, isn't it? Are you an SM / ASM? My kids have worked on Merit badges before first class, they have a lot of them. It's not wrong. Don't wish this kid out of Scouting. Give it more time for everyone to settle in and be patient with the family. They are learning too. It is extremely helpful for me that my husband goes on campouts and outing with our son and I will hear small comments about what happened at camp that give me encouragement -- knowing that my oldest made a snack on his first outing and that he enjoyed a particular card game, and that my second son worked really hard on his totin chip and working with an axe are little tidbits that help me stay connected to his scouting journey. If I didn't hear little reports like that it would be harder for me to be in the dark, it would be sad, actually not to know what the kids are experiencing. My kids don't talk much at all about what they do at camp or school, I hear very very little.It is hard to be left out of your son's Scouting journey after making some wonderful memories in Cubs.

You can also have the Tigers lead grace to contribute to a shared meal experience. Duty to God, oh my! Keep it simple, make it fun! Rub a dub, dub, thanks for the grub!

Don't call it a Tiger den campout, call it a Father-son weekend, leave the uniforms at home, be safe and have a great time. Not every camp experience has to be an official BSA camping experience. (Had to look up apostate, good vocab!)

Setting up tents is a great idea. Finding sticks for kindling is another good one.

I'll add that the girl and family seem to be asking politely for what they want. If you want something, it's OK to ask. They might get permission, they might not. As long as they are gracious about asking and about receiving an answer, I don't see a problem. I have no idea who this family is, btw.

In my experience as a female Den Leader working with boys, I have never really been alone with boys. There are always parents around, and that's a good thing -- I welcome an extra set of adult hands and eyes. Our CC's son was in my den so she was also around a lot of the time. I am allowed to be alone with the boys but that's never how it worked out, and IMO, that's good! Should a man be allowed to work alone with a group of girls? In theory yes, In practice, that's not how it's going to work out anyway, the girls will have parents sitting in the back of the meeting room, etc. Camp outs have different adult requirements, of course. This is also a matter of marketing. Parents of girls will be protective of them, and a cautious parent will not let a male leader be alone with a group of 6 year old girls, whether its in the policies or not. They'll show up. And what kind of guy is going to want to be left alone with a group of 6 year old girls? If he's smart, he's going to want some help! If he insists on not having other adults around, that is an important red flag. Back to the soft launch, many Packs have moms and dads involved. There should be a supply of adults of both genders, and as I've said before, new female Cubs will come along with parents who care about them, so a shortage of adult leaders is not necessarily a concern yet.

Are you having a Pack overnighter? Den-only camping is not recommended by the BSA: https://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx Sky is the Limit and Tiger Tag sound appropriate for your Pack camping trip. Tiger Tales and tall tales is also a fun one. You can do other activities of course, and if you want you can have them make trail mix or something like that if you want them to have "cooking" experience. Learning a magic trick can help a kid focus. And they are not easy at all! Otherwise Google and Pinterest can give you tons of ideas for fun Scout activities Have a great camping trip. Thanks for being a den leader! And I agree with Stosh, you've already done some hiking - go on another hike. The Bears and Webelos in my Pack love skits, they love making up their own skits, they are a bunch of little hams.

Of course that is baloney, but... let's talk about society in general. According to this -- Child sex abusers are "overwhelmingly male, ranging from adolescents to the elderly." http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/statistics-on-perpetrators-of-csa So, if the goal is risk mitigation, I can understand it.

I'll describe how Cub Scouting is working in our Pack / dens and perhaps we can figure out how it might work with girl dens. Our Pack has one Pack overnighter, a Friday - Sunday, with two nights sleeping in cabins. Tigers stay home. Wolves - Arrow of Light can come, parents are invited, but not required. We get a lot of parents, which is understandable because for many of the newer scouts its their first time away from home at this kind of thing. All the den leaders go, male and female, and no unregistered youth go along, it's Scouts only. The leaders who attended are -- Committee Chair (female), Cubmaster (male), Assistant Cubmaster (female), AOL den leader (male), Webelos den leader (male), Bear den leader (female), Wolves den leader (male). The three women were in the same cabin in a side bunk room with a tarp over the doorway and the cabins have bathrooms for males and females. Easy peasy, right? If we had more moms or females, we'd just need to figure a larger sleeping area, and changing could take place in the restrooms. Now, if the Arrow of light want to go den camping, they'd bring their male leader and a dad or two. Easy! I don't really see how it's so difficult. You pull in parents when needed if you need extra adults. Get a few parents YPT trained, that's not so hard, is it?

OK, I just have to say that your work to get to Eagle is obviously not meaningless and no one can take that experience or honor away from you. Also, there have likely been boys who have skirted the rules and been awarded Eagles in less than sterling fashion. I'm not saying it's common, but in the numbers of people in Scouting and the, er, variations in local Scouting, some people here and there probably have been given exceptions and lax standards, etc. Just because someone else had the rules bent does not diminish your accomplishment. I understand it will feel like that, but don't send in your achievement. "To compare is to be disappointed." --not sure of the source, but this is a quote I like and try to remember.

The CO is nearly completely uninvolved. It would be nice if they were more involved. I don't even know who our COR is. I asked once and the answer was nebulous.

See now I have to get all nerdy and check that out. I only see one camping merit badge, middle of third row from the bottom. Is the kid a model? I don't care. Not a big deal. I love looking at the photos of the Scouts on Bryan on Scouting web blog though.

I know, but the boys like their Troop and have made some friends there. So the adult stuff is just a sideshow. I will try to focus my efforts and relationships with the parents of the current scouts who will be around for a a while. I believe that our current CC and SM are coming out of an adult led culture but there is room to nudge things more boy led. Additionally I am not sure that either of the other two local troops are any more boy-focused than this one.

I am just thankful to know that I'm not alone with this kind of experience. There are a lot of wonderful, helpful, kind people in Scouting, and then there are a few kind and well meaning people who might just be grumpy lifers.

I think we need to start a separate thread about new parents -- or do we already have that in the helicopter parents thread? I've read several threads here about new parents mucking things up, and I believe your experiences are real. My experiences with just a couple old scouters is real too, and some of it is rough -- one is really, IMO, bad, passionate about Scouting but it comes out in all the wrong ways. The other is just down on the next group of parents. He seriously said when I said that the Troop might like to do high adventure in the future that with "these parents" the boys won't be able to do high adventure, because for some reason, they won't be able to pull it off. I said -- your kid went to Philmont, and then the other one gave a lecture about how hard it is to plan a Philmont trip and we don't have the adult leader resources for it. And then he said, as a committee, we will give you permission if you want to lead a Philmont trip you can. And I thought -- dude, I don't need your permission to plan a Philmont trip and I can find plenty of information on how to run a Philmont trip over the next two or three years, I know where to find plenty of people with Philmont experience, and I can recruit the right adults from inside or outside our Troop, and it's possible so don't tell me what I can and can't do. If the boys want to go to Philmont or Northern Tier or Seabase or anywhere else and need adult help, I will help them. See I'm new, and fresh and I got fire in my belly. All these older Scouters don't want to go to Philmont anymore or whatever, big hairy deal, they don't have to go. In one of our Fall meetings the old CC says -- I want to go camping at XX, and the camping chair plans a trip to go to XX and the boys are just told where they are going. According to what I hear here about how things should work, that sucks and this group can do better. We have several other old parents but most of them are low key, one more that's sticking around seems to think that it's still their business to do a lot of talking about how the Troop should be run. Like, why? Why is this your business if your kid is long gone and you are not volunteering in any way? Now this outspoken person is connected in the community and I know that has value, there is value to old Scouters experience, but it's not their place to direct the Scoutmaster or try to control policies and funding, etc. Even the stories about the scouts and volunteers from 5 years ago are largely irrelevant. Other old Scouters are very low key, merit badge counselors, etc, but they show at the committee meetings and some are helpful and volunteering. So, it's an interesting group and it's been slow getting in. I rock the boat a little here and there, but I have to balance it with being laid back so I don't get shut out. I have to be careful because I am tempted to say things like -- If you don't have a kid in the troop, why are you here? (I can't say that!) and let's let the parents who have kids in the Troop give their input, or I have two Scouts in this troop, or, when my den were AOL and they were learning about Scouting they leaned that Scouts plan their activities, not the adults etc. etc. But it can easily come across as rude, even if it's true! I do say some things that show that I'm with the current group and my kids are Scouts right now. I need to not develop a bad attitude -- ack, I need to get over my bad attitude. I feel that the two most negative Scouters need to back off, and they are both in the process of backing off, and that is good. I do not want any adult in the troop automatically telling any Scout that they cannot go to Sea Base or wherever as a default answer. But, that's a little out of my lane, as Stosh would say, at the moment. It's a slow thing, and committee is really a pain. But I need to be there to help the Troop adults have more exposure to the idea of boy-led Scouting. I will also put these ideas in front of the Scoutmaster, but for now the Committee has a feeling that it's the Committee that decides things. ETA: I feel like I'm dealing with -- a few of -- the prior generation's helicopter parents who ran the troop and are still helicoptering. All their kids Eagled, so they must know what's best. Blah! Also, I'm not saying every old Scouter is a bad Scouter, not at all -- and I am thankful for the many old Scouters who are helping in the right ways. These are examples of a few individual Scouters I am dealing with that are, IMO, too involved.

I am sure that our old CC who is now the Treasurer would have loved to yell at me for finding a wreath person, except, the old wreath person was delighted, and I included another committee member who seemed to buy in in the process. I just hope that the new wreath volunteer is treated well. Volunteers seem to be taken for granted, and I see this across our Pack and Troop. At our last committee meeting, after the popcorn kernel gave a lengthy report about declining popcorn sales, I said -- thank you for helping with the fundraising. I think people were shocked I said thank you! But he put a lot of effort into that report and people don't get thanked enough in Scouting. (This could be a whole 'nother topic.) At the Pack last year, I bought cheap flowers for the ladies, and service star pins and Payday candy bars (oops, peanuts, must not open at school) for all the adult leaders because I wanted to do some recognition for the adults in our Pack, who really never hear thank you, unless it is individually from a parent.

What does your wife do with your Troop and what was it like for her?

I was a den leader, and I feel those Scouts are my Scouts. Cub Scouting is more of a village, because it involves the families and I care about those kids and their families very much. ETA: They're not my Cub Scouts anymore, but I hope to be invited to at least one COH.

Here's what I have observed in some committee meetings where I am. A few of the parents of Scouts who are no longer in the troop complain that current parents are not volunteering and honestly, they start to come across like the only ones capable of getting anything done. Do they go out and ask the current parents to volunteer? No. They put a note in the minutes saying they need someone to volunteer and then complain that no one shows up. I asked a mom from my former den if she would take over the wreath sale. She said yes as long as she doesn't have to attend committee meetings. Voila! A new parent is volunteering. The mom who was doing the wreaths and her son is leaving is happy, and she was very nice. Score one for the new parents. Now some of the "old" parents are complaining that their fundraisers suck. (My family sold $700, but whatever.) I volunteered to our committee chair and Scoutmaster to run a candy fundraiser if the PLC supports the idea, and I offered to get them info. and candy samples so they could check it out. I have heard back -- nothing. So here I am, a new parent trying to help out, appropriately, and I'm getting nowhere with it. So I try to wait patiently until one of the more experienced adults actually wants assistance. We need a new Treasurer, but the outgoing Treasurer basically said that he trusts no one else to do the job. It's frustrating, really! I've made like 4 or more nominations for a new Treasurer. My fingers are crossed. So, I have some frustrations with old Scouters who complain about new parents.