Twocubdad

Tampa -- Does "living with mother and father" mean bio mom and dad, or are step mothers and fathers included in that number?

If I'm understanding the concensus of the group, I tend to agree. If this is A reward for participating in the service project, I've got no problem. If this is THE troop's annual Christmas party, excluding folks who can't participate in a particular project is pretty crummy. But if so, what to do? First, have your boy approach the PLC and make his case. And there's nothing wrong with you helping him prepare his pitch. Secondly, I'd have a low-key chat with the Scoutmaster. He may not like the policy any more than you, but feels he needs to stand by the PLC's decision. I can easily see where a group of boys, trying to solve the problem of participation in an activity may come up with this solution. But as Scoutmaster/PLC Advisor, this would be an area in which I'd pipe-up and try to redirect the group. Boys this age have a hard time seeing the trees, much less the forest. But if nothing changes, there is always next year. Coach you son that he need to get involved in the planning process. Perhaps next year he volunteers to lead the kettle drive or the holiday party so he has more input on who is included. And if next year he participates in the kettle drive, it will be a whole lot easier to make his point from the inside that as one of the guys who didn't participate and wants to get in.

Who suggested youth will be instructing these programs? Does anyone know the requirements of the instructor certification or are we just guessing?

We put a great deal of effort into preventing parents from attending summer camp. But we're completely welcome to as many adult scout leaders as want to attend. Unless they are able to attend the full week and serve as a troop leader, I flat-out tell my first-year parents they need to stay home (I suppose that makes me a bully and/or intimidator). If they really must, I suggest they drive up Friday, spend the night, then help drive the troop home Saturday morning. Otherwise, if they try to come up for a visit earlier and leave before the end of the week, there is a high probability they'll have a little 70 pound package riding home with them. Disasters? You want a disaster? War story: Despite this, last year we had one of the worst situations with a parent in my 8 years of summer camp with the troop. One first year dad planned to come up with us Sunday and stay through Monday, or so I understood. I wasn't too concerned as the dad has been around the troop a few years with an older brother and pretty well understood the program. The first hint of a problem was with the son sitting through the entire opening campfire snuggled up in his daddy's lap. To such a point that I had camp staff members asking me if there the boy had medical or emotional problems. Later that night, my SPL comes to me with this boy's tent mate in tears. The tent mate wants to go home because he's afraid to stay in the tent by himself. Huh? You guessed it, the first kid is bunking-down with his father. So I spent a half hour or more that night shuffling tent assignments to get everyone happy. The next two days were hell. I had two more boys terribly homesick, constantly wanting to call home so their mother or father could come stay with them. Tuesday morning we sat the dad (who was now planning to leave sometime Wednesday) and told him that if couldn't wean his son into his own tent before the dad went home, he would have to take the boy home with him -- the dad wasn't going to leave and dump on us the aftermath of moving the boy into his own tent. That percipitated a huge, dramatic production that night of moving the scout into his own tent, only to learn after lights-out the boy moved back to his dad's tent anyway. Of course, the son was victim to all manner of illness. Stomach ache, headache, some ill-defined leg problems, you name it. Meanwhile, everytime I can separate the dad and son, the boy had a blast. Without his dad he's running around like a nut with his buddies. But just as soon as the dad comes around the corner, the boy's smile turns to a pained grimace, his shoulders drop, he grabs his stomach and limps toward his dad. And this really isn't communicating the drag this put on the whole troop. All I did the first three days of camp was deal with this kid and the two others. I can't guarantee without the dad in camp these boys would not have been homesick. But by Thursday morning all three perked up and went on about having a good time with their friends. And I can say for sure dealing with a homesick 11-year-old is much easier than dealing with the parent.

Some years ago, when my leanings were more left than they are today, I recall musing about the pillars of Family Values -- Regan, Gingrich and Limbaugh. I believe I counted eight wives among them (maybe more now, I quit counting.) But this is all just the horse race baloney the media promotes. No one wants to hear about foreign policy or economics but they're dang excited about Big Bill's cigars, Cain's resume builder programs or Clarence Thomas' Coke can. Now that interesting stuff! The party out of the White House always goes through this. Was it in '92 the media dubbed the Democratic field "The Seven Dwarfs"? No one captures the primary prior to Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. They only loose it. If I were managing a campaign, I'd lock my candidate in a closet somewhere until two weeks before the SC primary then jump in with a media massive push -- no debates, no foot-in-mouth, no 12 months for the media to dig up dirt on my guy. ========== Tampa -- "As a former guy...." Have you had the surgery or just living the lifestyle? Is it to late to edit that post? LOL!!

Again, I don't know what the final camp standards look like, but the ATV instructor had some national instructor certification and the course taught was a very tightly controlled national certification syllabus. My guess it the requirements councils receive from national are similar to what you seen in the SCUBA program in terms of meeting requirements from recognized certification organizations. I would also assume, Beav, that we're a LOOOONG way from troops jumping on their own ATVs or PWCs and riding off into the sunset.

A polysci major myself, I'm with LisaBob. The ballot comes under the heading of "What the Heck Are You Thinking??" There is no possible upside to that. But here's a thought/question: A SM and one ASM for 30 boys strikes me as very thin. It would be thin if you only had 5 scouts -- no back up, no down time, no weekends off. Is the problem that with only two trained leaders the troop is forced to rely on the untrained helicopter parents to fill the roles trained ASMs should have? So maybe these parents aren't the people you want. But maybe they could be trained to become the right people. Or maybe you go out and recruit community volunteers to the job. It seems to me you have an adult leadership vacuum which is sucking-in the parents. Fill the vacuum and avoid the problems

SP -- at your suggestion, I tried -- really tried -- to re-read the thread from the beginning. I got to early May (about page 7 or 8) and just couldn't choke any more of this down. (An by the way, I still never read where a parent shouldn't be ultimately allowed in.) I am now reminded why I quit reading it long ago and questioning my judgement for picking up again. That was 30 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Thanks a lot. But then I read Dennis99ss' post earlier this afternoon. HOLY SMOKES!! (Yeah, E92, I'm yelling, and "smokes" is not the word I'm really thinking.) On tha alter of parental openness, this Dennis wants to sacrifice basic, common sense safety and allow an untrained, unregistered (and therefor non-background checked), unsupervised, lone parent to plop down in the middle of a group of boys, separated only by a few mils of nylon? AND YOUR BIG CONCERN HERE IS THE PERCEPTION OF THE OA VIOLATING YOUTH PROTECTION STANDARDS!!!! NO ONE, NO ONE! should be allowed to do that. Who knows what is going on in the middle of the night. How do you know this parent isn't lying awake in his tent listening for a Scout to get up in the night? This is an example which needs to be added to the YP video -- a clear example of grooming. Leaders need to be mindful of people who would twist BSA policy to allow clear violations of basic YP tenents. SP-- you want to get all torqued up and call the Scout Executive on volunteers who want "discourage" parents from attending an OA event which is conducted in plain view of dozens of youth and adults? Then how do you feel about this?

This isn't a mandatory program, ya know. If your council is spending money on ATVs and PWCs but at the same time has holes in the dining hall roof and stuff running out the back of the latines, the problem isn't that national has authorized a new program. I don't know what is in the camp standards for these programs, but I do have some knowledge of the criteria on which the pilot sites were selected. Suitable location was a big factor. The camps had to have dedicated areas for ATV use -- they can't mix hikers with ATVs. LNT was a concern, too. Substantial water access was required for the PWCs. I believe E92's camp is on the Pamlico Sound, for example. Councils also had to submit financial plans for the programs and I can tell you they all did no rely on donated equipment. These programs are simply two more arrows the summer camp quiver. Some will use them, some won't. Some camps won't have the facilities for them. Some won't have the money or staff. Some will give the programs a try and find them not to be a good fit. Some will turn them into signature programs for their camp. How is this different from anything else?

I had boys go through the ATV pilot program both years. It was exceptionally well run and the boys had a BLAST. One sixth-year camper told me it was the most fun he EVER had at summer camp and would come back next summer just to do the ATV course again. The additional fee was $100 per week for a daily four hour course (day one was mostly classroom, but days four and five were all riding). At the conclusion for the course the boys received some sort of national ATV certification which is required in some states to operate an ATV. The course is very similar in structure to drivers' education and most of it is very applicable to boys who drive or will be driving soon. Still, my guys with real drivers' licenses were not bored with the classroom sections. Don't knock it until you try it.

Maybe folks consider conversations with you, SP, to be a burden, but it doesn't have to be so. Where in the world do you get that talking with a parent about an element of the program, educating them and helping them understand our purpose and methods is a burden? BSA policy is for Scouts to advance at their own pace. But is it a burden for me to counsel a Scout to slow down and enjoy the program or to get it in gear if he wants to make Eagle? Is it a burden to talk with a parent who is pushing his Scout to advance? Of course not. It's my job. Similarly, an OA advisor has an obligation to talk with a parent who wants to attend the Ordeal. It's his/her job to explain the program to the parents to their satisfaction and, if they still insist on attending, to make sure they understand the expecatations of guests at the ceremonies. Otherwise, sooner or later, you will have some Speilberg wannabe wandering through the ring for a close up. Somehow you seem to have a very low opinion of OA advisors. Perhaps, in your experience, it's deserved. But most of the Scouters I know can carry on a reasonable conversation with a Scout or parent without it being a burden to them. The policy E92 mentions is well known and reasonable. Just apply a little common sense and courtesy. This does not have to be an all-or-nothing issue.

Just follow the dang rules -- all of them. You can't just pick the one policy you like and follow it blindly -- in either directin. You have to look at the policy and program wholly and apply them reasonably. If a parent has a concern about the content of the ceremonies, explain it to them, show them the script or even a video of past ceremonies. If they absolutely insist on attending their son's ceremony in person, escort them to the back row and explain they -- and everyone else in attendance -- are guests and must remain silent and at the seat throughout the ceremony. I'd have the lodge advisor sit with them if they seem likely to make a scene. If they disrupt the ceremony, throw their butts out! I don't see where the "open to parents" rule trumps anything else. OA works just like anything else. Parents are allowed to attend, but not distrupt. We once had a situation in the troop where a parent of one scout was creating problems for us. Our guidance from both our CO and our council professionals is nothing requires us to allow a parent to go camping with us. In fact, it should be fairly obvious that both common sense and youth protection concerns demand that we have the authority to control who does and does not attend activities.

GTA section 4.2.3.4.5 says "Often this questioning approach can lead a young man to the decision to measure up. He will tell the leaders how much of the service time should be recorded." Reminds of the scene in "A Christmas Story" where Miss Shields is lecturing the class after Flick froze his tongue to the flag pole: Miss Shields: "Now I know that some of you put Flick up to this, but he has refused to say who. But those who did it know their blame, and I'm sure that the guilt you feel is far worse than any punishment you might receive. Now, don't you feel terrible? Don't you feel remorse for what you have done? Well, that's all I'm going to say about poor Flick. Ralphie (narrating): "Adults loved to say things like that but kids knew better. We knew darn well it was always better not to get caught."

We do something similar. I buy 1/4" x 2" x 4' oak boards at Lowes and cut them into plaques about 8" long. I have a local engraver who has a laser engraver and burns the boys' names into the plaques. With me doing all the woodwork, he only charges $2 a piece for the engraving. Sweet deal. We use adhesive Velcro strips on the back to attach the plaques to the wall. We've tried small hook-and-eye screws in the past, but the alignment of those gets to be a hassel, especially with different people making the plaques over the years. The Velcro doesn't look as neat, but is much easier.

Nah, I'm actually excited to be able to buy the $70 silver coins for $49.

NO HYPE NO HYSTERIA NO HASSLE This cyber Monday at ScoutStuff.org!* *Excludes uniforms, uniform accessories, insignia, Pinewood Derby products and program literature. Hmmmmm.... Perhaps someone should review the meaning of "everything" with the folks at supply. Strikes me as one of those words which precludes the use of an asterisk. Come to think of it, maybe add "no hype" to the discussion as well.

I think Stosh is coming close to hitting the right balance. Competitions are fine, but in the context of Scouting they are difficult to apply in a meaningful way. Those things we try to teach are HIGHLY subjective and are very difficult to render into a score. For example, our district camporee scores patrols equally on leadership, teamwork, scout spirit and completion of task. Each of these are rendered into a numeric score. The winning patrols usually score in the 350 range with the top four or five patrols within about 10 points of each other. You're telling me they can judge spirit, leadership and teamwork within a 2% margin of accuracy? Back in the day, the camporees I attended as a Scout awarded patrols blue, red, white and yellow ribbons indicating excellent, proficient, good and "thanks for coming". Getting a blue ribbon at a camporee was a big deal and the honor was not lessened by other top patrols receiving the same award. Is the rank of Eagle lessened because more than one is awarded? Why the emphasis on producing one singular winner? As with most things in life, Scout competitions are best suited for competing against yourself or a standard of excellence.

732 is correct, a SMC can occur any time in the process. However most folks will agree the natural place for the SMC is when the other requirements are met. I think many troops use the SMC as the final check before a Board of Review. We do. Although I'll frequently conduct SMCs for upper ranks with NO requirements physically signed off -- completed, but not signed off. Service, leadership, and spirit are usually discussed and signed-off during the conference (and completed merit badges are self-evident). It is also worth noting that I confer with my Scouts all the time. I have conferences with my SPL three or four times a week. I had any number of conferences sitting around the campfire last weekend. There is nothing wrong with counting those for the official SMC, many troops do. Personally, when I am conducting a conference specifically for a rank requirement, I want it to be more formal, with a bit more effort and preparation by the Scout and covering specific topics. While we usually do the conference last, from time to time I'll have a Scout who hasn't completed another requirement or maybe is totally unprepared to advance. Since we have, in fact, conferred, I'll go ahead and sign-off the SMC before the other requirement is met, but remind him to complete the other requirement(s) before requesting a BOR. (Only once have I had a Scout in this situation request a BOR anyway. The BOR chairman caught the fact that the other requirements weren't complete and called me in to the board. Of course the rest of the Board was spent discussing "Trustworthy".) We now have a form I sign and give Scouts when they are ready for a BOR. It wasn't specifically in response to that Scout, rather a former advancement chair who wanted a note from the Scouts to help him remember to schedule the BOR. It now includeds a line for my authorization and contact info for the new AC. Back to Eagle, it seems to me the Eagle app process is detailed enough that I end up meeting a couple times with candidates -- finalizing project reports, getting the Scouts started on the application process, tracking down references (contrary to policy, our council requires the Scout/troop to do that), getting final signatures. Somewhere during all that we sit down over a cup of coffee for an more philosophical chat. But as with the other ranks, the topic of that conversation tends to be service, leadership and the Ideals. The Scout needs to have completed those requirements prior to the conference in order to discuss them.

Off topic a bit, Stosh, but as our troop improves our program for the new Scouts and backs away from a first year First Class program, I see that same attitude among the parents of the Scouts who tend to lag behind the others in reaching first class. I have four or five Second Class Scouts who are approaching their second year in the troop. Most are lacking the First Class cooking requirements which has a fairly high correlation with spotty attendance on campouts. I've had two or three parents recently ask me what Dear Sweet Thing has to do to finish First Class. I'd like to say, "show up and finish the requirements," but you know how that goes. Somehow it's our responsibility to chase after DST and make him complete the requirements.

Yeah, same system with the division of patrol equipment. When I came in as SM, everything was on shelves in the back and each patrol would draw what they needed for a campout. Left the pots dirty? Broke a tent pole? No problem. Throw it back on the shelf. Odds are low you'll get that same piece of equipment next month. Now everything is labeled with numbers and/or colors and permanently assigned to the patrols. We've always had plastic patrol totes, but we built lockers so even bulkier items like tents and stoves are assigned to patrols. It's made a huge difference in accountability.

If ASPL is not a leadership/supervisory position then what? Hanging around in case the SPL gets hit by a bus? We try to incorporate a leadership element into all troop positions. Our ASPL-Administration supervise the Troop Scribe, Librarian, Quartermaster, Historian, etc. ASPL-Troop Guided is supervises the Troop Guides and plans program/activities for the new Scout patrols. ASPL-Program is responsible for outings and activities and The SPL supervises the PLs. Troop Scribe and Quartermaster are responsible to work with the Patrol Scribes and QMs to help them do their jobs. For example, PQMs are responsible for their patrol gear, but TQM works with them to make sure consumables are replaced, repairs handled and does semi-annual inventories the same time we do PL elections. The TQM considers the PQMs his "staff" and goes to them when he needs help with a reorganization/clean out of the storage area.

I was only four and staying at my grandparent's. I don't particularly recall many details except that the TV was on all day. That was unusual. Usually it was only on at noon to watch Jesse Helms on WRAL then in the evening for Uncle Walter and Gunsmoke. I don't remember much about MLK's assasination, although I do remember going downtown that Sunday afternoon and watching a very somber and respectful march in his honor. I also reremember watching people on TV throw rocks at school buses full of black children in South Boston several years later. Unfortunately, Pack, hate has little regard for geography.

The Wuzification continues.

Just had that very conversation this weekend with a two boys and their parents. It's pretty clear to me they have no real interest in the troop's program, but see camping as an opportunity to hang out in the woods together will fairly loose adult supervision. Although they are both 15, neither ever take any sort of responsibility or contribute to the overall good of the group. I sent both families home to decide if they really want to participate in the program or not. I've learned being an advocate for the boys sometimes means convincing the parents he needs to move on to other interests. When a boy is 8, 10, or 12 years old, participating in Scouting is the parents' call -- like eating his vegetables or doing his homework. But when a boy reaches 13, 14 or 15, he's old enough to make his own decision -- and is certainly old enough to make everyone miserable is he's forced into something he doesn't want to do.

Seems to me there are two lines of thought going here. One, is that taking 8th grade government/civics is an automatic sign-off on Cit/Nat, or being in the school play is a free pass for theater MB. HECK NO! The requirements need to be completed as written. The curriculum of a school class should not be substituted wholesale for the MB requirements. Two, that when course work aligns with the requirements for a MB that the counselor allow a Scout to receive "double credit" and accept the school work to fulfill a MB requirement. Counting a school field trip to a federal facility for Cit/Nat, or the school play for a particular Theater MB requirement. Sure, I'm okay with that, but haven't we recently chewed the issue of double dipping?