Twocubdad

Part of WB is modeling a troop and patrol. I'd say you're getting the full experience. How many times have we all seen enthusaistic PL take the job and run into a bunch of lumps who don't care?

Question -- was your SM being sarcastic in his comment that he was diasppointed in your score of 1650? Did he happen to mention who signed the form for the pack?

Good discussion. Thanks. As to fundraising or not, 'round here that's not been a big issues as since in the past the council has actively discouraged fundraising. They intrepreted the rule that Eagle projects cannot BE a fundraiser as Eagle projects cannot INCLUDE fundraising. Consequently, Scouts were given no credit for the time and effort they put into raising money. That being the case, and if mom and dad were willing to simply stroke a check, why go to the extra effort. Secondly, as there has always been an emphasis on construction-oriented projects (although the CAC denies it), material costs can be significant. I've seen projects with budgets in the $thousands. That's a lot of cars to wash and doughnuts to sell. Personally, I don't get too excited the source of funding. I do think the Scout needs to have some skin in the game whether he's chipping in from his savings or part-time job or out raising money -- either is okay with me. I've never thought of fundraising as a significant leadership component as we've not previously counted fundraising as a part of the project overall. I'll allow that if we are now to include the time and effort spent raising money as part of the overall project, then yes, the Scout needs to be showing leadership while raising the money. On the other hand, if mom and dad are writing a check, then I would expect the implemention of the project to be of sufficent scope for the Scout to demonstrate leadership exclusive of fundraising. For what it's worth, as I mentioned, my son is in the throes of his project. He has a budget of about $500. He raised about $375 and his mom and I agreed to split the difference with him. As to my scenarios -- I'm beginning to discern a few lines in all the fuzz. Clearly, in the first scenario, the money raised belongs to the beneficiary and should be handled appropriately. In the third scenario -- using Scout account funds -- if the troop allows boys to use Scout account funds for Eagle projects, then I don't have a problem with it. In this case the actual fundraiser comes under the unit and their unit money-earning application. But from there, it's the Scout's money to do with as is permitted by the troop. In all the following scenarios, the Scout is earning the money one his own and how he handles it is his own business -- literally. How formal his job is -- pulling weeds for neighbors or a "real" job at the car wash or bagging groceries -- doesn't matter. It's his money. The second scenario is the fuzzy one and something I would judge on a case-by-case basis. The question is to what degree is this a real service/product and how much of it is trading on the generosity donor and the name of the beneficiary or the BSA. In this specific case, just by the nature of it being a carwash, I would strongly lean to calling this a fundraiser for the benefit of the EP beneficiary and subject to all the rules in the work book. But let give you another example (and this is really what I had in mind when I wrote the OP, but I couldn't figure how to expand it into the other scenarios): Several Scouts in our troop have raised money for their EPs by selling discount books. There are a number of local companies which produce this and wholesale them to any number of charities. They boys buy the books at wholesale (about $10, I think) and sell them for $20. My wife is a sucker for these things. We have stacks of them. Usually, when one of my Scouts approaches me with one of these books, I'll buy one simply on the basis of helping the kid out. I don't care if it's for his Eagle Project or church group. Don't care if the ultimate beneficiary is the local soup kitchen or sending the boy to summer camp. In this case, the young man is trading on his own name and reputation. Frankly, if all he said is, "I'm working on a community service project, will you support me?" I'd give him the 20 bucks. At this point, I still think this is the boy's money to do with as he pleases (although he has made a commitment to spend it on his unnamed service project and I trust that he will do so.) Where this drifts across the line and becomes a charitable fundraiser is if he takes it public by knocking on strangers' doors and/or evoking the name of the beneficiary organization or the BSA (which he really shouldn't do anyway.) Is this an iron-clad deal? No. As I said, I would evaluate each fundraiser individually. And frankly, if it's this thin of an edge, I'd counsel the Scout to treat this like an official fundraiser, fill out the application and give all the money to the beneficiary. While I said I didn't want us to get off-topic with this, there probably are municipal ordinances we need to consider.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

The Scoutmaster's signature on the blue card does not constitute approval to begin. I would not accept the time prior to the Scout contacting me. Otherwise that's a throwaway requirement for every kid who aalready has a pet. A troopmate of mine "trained" his cat to play the piano for the MB. He put the cat's food on the keyboard and the cat would walk down the keys to eat. Cats can be trained to do stuff they already wanted to do but they're not going to do stupid stuff for your entertainment.

They can add the device indicating the level at which the award was earned.

Nope, that's correct.

Thomas-- you need to read the new workbook. There is a whole page which is essentially the "Eagle Candidate (and Parent's) Bill of Rights." It is very detailed in what to expect and how to procede if the expectations are not met. I just addressed this idea in the thread on workbook issues, but here's the deal. If you get to the point of banging your shoe on the table and demanding the Scout do it your way, you've already lost. For one, you don't have a leg to stand on as far as policy goes. A Scout leader/mentor's opportunity to influence that outcome came and went months (if not years) earlier. It is about setting expectations, educating the Scout and his parent in the philosophy of your troop's program, and getting them to understand that the troop leadership does things in the best interest of the boys. If they don't buy into that, hopefully they'll move on well before Eagle.

And life is good.

Where everyone is getting torqued up over this is worrying about this is the last one percent of kids/parents who will want to game the system and get away with something. Unfortunately, if you've been a Scout leader for much time, you've probably been burned by such a kid/parent, I know I have. So it's not a totally unreasonable concern, you can't build a program or policy around the outliers. Nor should judge the new policy on that basis. I ABSOLUTELY agree that the old system was way over the top in the amount of bureaucracy and adult control it allowed. Our council was one of the worst. However, I think the new system may have gone slightly too far in the other direction. While it is now explicit that Eagle Projects are fully considered troop programs, technically, we can't require a Scout to provide the documentation we would require for planning a troop outing -- budgets, schedules, materials lists, logistics, etc. I think I've posted this before, but the key to this is setting the expectation with the Scouts AND parents that although we may not require this information, we do expect it. We need to help them understand it is GREATLY in their best interest to use the Final Plan section of the workbook and to keep the troop leadership informed of their plans. Failure to do so WILL result in delays in getting work days scheduled with the troop or in obtaining tour permits and fundraising apps. It may also result in the project being rejected by the SM, CC or BOR after it is completed. In short, failure or refusal to cooperate puts your project and Eagle at risk. In the bright light of day, just about everyone will agree. Problem comes when Dear Sweet Thang is two weeks from his 18th birthday and we decline to schedule a work day since DST has provided the troop with absoluted no information. Expect full Mama/Papa Bear mode. But that's why there is a new method for handling disputed Eagle applications. If, for whatever reason, the SM or CC declines to sign a Eagle app or project workbook, the whole process get swept over to the district or council advancement committee. But to my main point, I think there is too much focus on the doomsday scenarios. 99% of the time, the new procedures are going to be a great thing for the Scouts and leaders.

We do it every couple of years. We just do it. No one seems to care.

Pack make a reasonable point. An honorable retreat is something for the Scout to consider, but is his decision to make -- especially now that he's all grown up and everything. I would put a call in to the National Advancement Team and ask for advice. This is a train wreck. First thing is to figure out if he is appealing or requesting an extension -- maybe both. If it's an appeal, what is he appealing? Having his second proposal rejected? Is that appealable? The book only talks about appeals based on the Scoutmaster or Committee Chair refusing to sign the app (which would lead to a Board of Review under contested circumstances) or a rejection by the Board of Review (which is a different sort of appeal.) Has the project review committee given him a letter explaining why the second proposal was rejected (i.e., have the put the 100 hours thing in writing?) Where is the unit leader in all this? Under the new guidelines, even a failed project may be considered if it is deemed to have satisfied Eagle Requirement 5. My hunch is denying the second proposal on the grounds that it failed to meet minimum man-hour requirements (which is clearly in violation of policy, new or old) will be sufficient reason for an extension. That the kid had a reasonable plan to finish before his birthday is a big argument in his favor.

The new Eagle project procedures make it clear that any money raised for an Eagle project belongs to the beneficiary, even to the point that any surplus money must be given to the beneficiary at the completion of the project. There is a new Eagle Project Fundraising Application, different from the Unit Money-Earning Application, which must be approved by the beneficiary, unit and council. As with unit fundraisers, products sold must be of a quality people will want the product, not just because of its association with Scouting. (Makes you wonder if Boy Scout popcorn meets that criteria, but I digress....) The idea being that the Scout EARNS the money by providing valuable goods and services, not just standing on the corner and asking for donations. So my questions is this: if they Scout is earning the money without trading on the name of Scouting (or presumably the beneficiary organization) then why does it automatically belong the the beneficiary? Think through these fundraisers: --- A "free" carwash in which a bunch of boys do a half-way job of bucket washing cars in return for a "donation." Big banner out front says "FREE CAR WASH -- Donations accepted benefitting Billy's Eagle Project and ABC Beneficiary." Average donation is $25 per car. One man give $100 but doesn't want his car washed. --- Billy buys a shop vac, rents a pressure washer, and arranges to pay a business owner to use his parking lot and water. He and his buddies spend two weekends washing cars, charging $15 per car, the same as the car wash across town. Sign out front only says "CAR WASH" but when asked Billy tells folks he's raising money for his Eagle Project. --- Billy works at his troop's annual carwash. A portion of the money raised goes into his Scout account which he designates to be spent his Eagle project. --- Billy knocks on doors in his neighborhood and asks if he can earn money by washing cars. He washes a few cars, does some windows, pulls weeds from flower beds and gets hired to paint a garage. The money he earns goes toward his project. --- Billy has had his own "mobile detailing" business and spends his weekends running around town doing quality wash jobs for paying clients. He pays for his Eagle project out of the money he makes. --- Billy gets a job at the local commercial carwash. He makes minimum wage, plus tips and saves his money to fund his Eagle project. If I had the time, maybe I could come up with a couple "fuzzier" examples the blurr the line further, but you get my drift. But my question is, which ones of these are fundraisers? Which ones require Eagle Project Fundraising apps? At what point does the money belong to the beneficiary? (And let's set aside any issues of municipal permits and license.) And further, if his approved budget is $500, all of which he is donating out of his own pocket, but the final cost of his project is only $450, does he have to give the $50 surplus to the beneficiary, or can he reduce his "donation" to the actual cost of the project? I understand the idea here is BSA wants to make sure any financial issues (short falls, tax issues, etc.) fall to the beneficiary (which make since, as the are the one benefitting from the project), but that seems to create some grey areas for the individual Scout and leaders advising him. I have an idea of how I would advise the boys in my unit, but I'm interested in what you folks see as the guiding principles in all this.

Well there's your problem, BD, you're accustomed to dealing with a bunch of tightwads! Where are Scouts spending hundreds of dollars feeding their workers? (Granted, in Raisinemright's OP the instructor mentioned 25 pizzas, but since they were pulling policy out of thin air, I assume that's where they got the number of pizzas, too.) Reasonableness is an issue. I dont'think anyone is arguing food shouldn't be incidental to the project. For the most part, that's an issue between the Scout and the beneficiary (since the money belongs to the beneficiary). But if I have a Scout bringing me a Fundraising application and I feel his food budget is grossly out of proportion, we're going to discuss it. Maybe he has a good reason for the expense. Maybe he just hasn't thought it through. Maybe we can reschedule his work sessions to avoid meal times.

Curious, how much have boys spent on food for their work crews?????? Interestingly enough, my son had a work day for his Eagle Project today. He had about 12 boys who worked three hours for him on a cold wet day. Total cost of food: $4.58 for a tub of cocoa. This is out of a budget of about $500 -- the kid sold discount cards to raise over $300 for the project and is kicking in another $100 out of his own pocket (which mom and dad are matching). I don't know what makes you think these guys are living large off money donated to their Eagle Project. By and large, they are getting by on the cheap. My guys Scouts know minute-by-minute the cheapest pizzas in town. And when did food brought to a pot luck become free? That's just cost shifting. I've worked with probably 25 Eagle Scouts over the past eight years on their projects. Off-hand, I can't think of a single one who has solicited donations for their project. They are almost all funded by the Scout earning the money or his family doing so. These young men are responsible for thousands of hours and dollars being donated to the community. The idea that spending a few bucks on cocoa or pizza is somehow poor stewardship of the funds donated to them is as laughable as it is offensive. Have you guys never been involved in fundraising? Never been to a campaign kick-off breakfast? Never had your DE or SE pick up the tab for lunch when you arranged for him to meet your and a potential large donor? None of the council committees you serve on ever have lunch meetings? Have never been offer drinks or snacks at Roundtable or a training function? Where did that money come from? You guys really think there is an issue of budgeting a small percentage of a project's budget to take care of and show appreciation for the Scouts who are doing the work? I just don't get it.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Black ice is when running water or freezing rain freezes to the road leaving a clear glazing. It's difficult to tell if it's ice or just water on the road. Compared to sleet or slush.

In my opinion, you're doing it right and I wouldn't worry. The way you do "instruction" and not "merit badge classes" is spot-on. So what if no one earns the badge? They're still learning stuff and having fun. I think what you're seeing is a spin-off of summer camp merit badge programs. With only nine elective MBs needed for Eagle, most boys can knock that off in a couple seasons at camp without much effort. So they do the math and figure additional electives are worth the work, even if there's not much additional work to do.

Fred, no. If wanting to see how much is being raised and how it will be spent before putting my signature on a fundraising application is adding to the requirements, then so be it. I'll help you write your letter of appeal. If the council wants to approve the application without my signature, they are welcome to do so. If you ask me to approve something I need to know what I'm approving. The new Eagle procedures are neither blank check nor suicide pact. I'm not required to sign or approve anything I don't understand or agree to. if the only information I can base my approval upon is that previously submitted in the proposal, then make fundraising approval automatically part of the proposal process. That it is part of the final plan phase tells me that more planning and development is needed that what was available in the proposal. In the same way, Eagle projects are now officially unit activities requiring two-deep leadership and tour permits, if applicable. If I'm responsible for an activity, I'm going to know the details in advance. Just because a Scout and his beneficiary have agreed to clear stumps with dynamite doesn't mean I've got to go along with it. The faustian deal of the new procedures is a Scout can play games with the planning, development and approval of the project if he likes, but he runs the risk that his actions will not be approved by his unit leaders and board of review on the back end. Far better to be forthcoming with your leaders, give them detail they need, get them on board and have their support on the backside. I went to the council training on this stuff recently. It's amazing how wrapped around the axle people are over this stuff. Common sense. Common sense.

That helps. Crawlies don't have a place to hide and the wood doesn't hold moisture as well. Species of tree makes a big difference too. Around here, white oak would be the best choice; poplar the worst. Pine is easy to come by, but won't last long is messy to handle, especially if you peel the bark. Best method is to have some place covered to store the poles out of the weather.

Ah, A written budget plan shared with potential cash donors makes me feel better about it. List of materials and include lunch for volunteers. EVERY Eagle project run by one of my Scouts has that, a materials lists, schedule, tools needed, etc., etc. While I will grant you those things are now optional as part of the "Final Plan" section of the workbook, we will STRONGLY encourage out Scouts to complete those items, as appropriate to each project. Another new item in the new workbook is an Eagle Project Fundraising Application which requires approval of the unit, beneficiary and council. This unit will not approve a fundraising app without a detailed budget.

Eagle Projects are usually pretty well defined. If he is concerned enough to ask, Mr. Jones will be told Jimmy is building six benches and Mr. Jones donation will go toward the total project of building benches. If Jimmy and Mr. Smith, the park superintendent, agree that providing lunch for Jimmy's volunteers is a reasonable part of the bench project, then they include pizzas in their budget. But at the end of the day, Jimmy will complete the six benches as promised, pizza or not. Now if Jimmy wants to take all his buddies out for a steak dinner at Morton's two weeks later, to celebrate finishing the project, then I'd call that an unreasonable expense. But if I've got a bunch of folks volunteering their day to help me, I don't think it unreasonable to provide lunch, or drinks and a snack if it's part of a day. And I guarantee you that even springing for a few pizzas, Jimmy's Eagle project have a smaller percentage of overhead than any other charitable contribution that Mr. Jones makes all year. Another point, and this may just be how projects are typically run in these parts, few Scout get out-right cash donations for their projects. We do have a few places who always provide materials at cost (even pizzas!), but by and large, most Scouts EARN the money for their projects by selling discount book, doughnuts or washing cars. Many boys fund their projects from their own savings and/or earnings from a part-time job. And of course parents often kick in a good bit. My deal with my sons has been to set a fundraising goal and split any short-fall 50/50 with him.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

If enthusiasm counted, you'd be a shoo-in, but nldscout is right. That the committee sought out your Scoutmaster due to his experience should tell you what they're looking for. Keep in mind you and your Scoutmaster were not applying for the same job -- please see my earlier response regarding second assistant scoutmaster. In our council, in the past, there haven't been enough registered Scoutmaster to fill the SM and first ASM slots. They had to go out and recruit them. On the other hand, last time there were nearly 10 applicants for each second ASM slot. Very likely there are a lot of guys equally qualified for these positions who have been waiting much longer than you.

We have a stack of 1-1/4 closet rod at the Scout house we can use for boys to practice and demonstrate their ability to tie lashings. It's too smooth for real projects, but it is neat, clean and stacks easily indoors. In a pinch we've bought pressure-treated fence posts at either the blue or orange big box. I think they're either 4- or 6-feet long and 3- or 4 inches in diameter (the small is fine). Like you, we have a hard time keeping real timbers for pioneering projects. No easy source and we don't really have anywhere to store them. They sit out in the weather behind the church maintenance shed and rot after a few years. Mostly, when we want to do "real" pioneering, we do it at the scout camp which has an assortment of nice, solid timbers at the scoutcraft area.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Probably pulled the number of pizzas from the same place the pulled the "policy."

Military had first responders stationed around the site, but the regional medical facilities were staffed by volunteers and absolutely top notch. The couple times I interacted with them (all very minor stuff) they were on it like white on rice. If you were going to stroke-out, short of the parking lot of a trauma center, jamboree was probably the best place to do it. Sorry, E61, you'll have to find fault elsewhere.

Doesn't matter. Patrol A is responsible for their gear. If their guest damages something, it's still the patrol's responsibility to hold him accountable or assume the liability themselves. We handle gear just as Scoutnut describes. Had exactly the same problems as you describe until started doing so. It's not 100%. There is still much more wear and tear on gear than on the stuff you and I own, but it's a big improvement.