Twocubdad

In Avid's defense, the policy has been in effect for exactly four days now. The new guidelines and workbooks started leaking out less than 90 days ago and still don't seem to be in wide circulation. While we've had briefings at Roundtable, our council won't have it's first real training on the new programs until the end of the month. BSA is terrible at rolling out and implementing program changes and this is another example. But don't confuse poor execution with bad policy. In my opinion, the new workbooks and guidelines are right on the money and sorely needed. All your concerns are addressed in the new policy, Max. Your kid uses the new workbook to feed you a line of BS, your response should be the same as it would have been had he used the OLD workbook to feed you a line -- "NOT APPROVED" When the Scout submits his Eagle app to the council office with NO workbook (with or without a note that he will bring his iPad to his EBOR) it is returned to him with a letter referencing the appropriate sections of the new advancement guidelines. If it goes as far an EBOR, the board should be adjourned and reconvened when the proper documentation is provided. Districts and councils will need to develop some finesse in evaluating projects based on the new workbooks. We should expect a learning curve for units and councils alike. But it is absolutely doable if folks will get out of the Six Sigma mentality for Eagle project proposals. While I am in strong agreement with Fred generally, I'll take minor exception with one thing he wrote: "the workbook is really the only piece that can be used to evaluate if the scout led his project." No, you also have the Scoutmaster's signature on the workbook and Eagle application. The beneficiary also signs off that the project was completed to his/her satisfaction. As with all the requirements, it is the responsibility of the unit leader to sign off that the project has been completed. What is different about the Eagle project that we require pages upon pages of documentation from the candidate? Why don't we require him to bring meeting notes, plans schedules, meeting minutes and inventories from his POR? Shoot, we're prohibited from even touching merit badge requirements and that's the area of advancement with the most variability in quality, in my opinion. Another element of the new program you've omitted is the use of Eagle project counselors. Yes, they're optional and the Scout doesn't have to take their advice or even meet with them, but that's how a district can properly guide Eagle candidates from troops with new or weak leaders. If local advancement committees are smart about it, they would assign project counselors to troops, not individual scouts. That would give the mentors the opportunity to build relationships with the troop leaders and help them develop their ability to evaluate and coach projects. Something you wrote, Max, really caught my attention -- "I predict that I'm going to see a lot of disappointing paperwork, very little leadership, even less exposure to Project Management, and virtually no taking responsibility for a significant accomplishment." Interesting. Three of the four items you listed aren't part of what an Eagle project is supposed to be about. Leadership -- yes -- and community service is what I recall from my training. Delightful paperwork, exposure to project managment and an expectation that Eagle projects all be significant is exactly what the new changes are trying wring from the process.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Are you kidding? I didn't think ScoutNet worked well anyhere!

That's not true. We are supposed to send two-deep leadship to all overnight activities. Scouts attending lodge functions are responsible to their troop leaders, not the OA leaders. Granted, we can pair up in the campsites with other troops to get to the two deep requirement and when I've had only one or two boys, I've had other troops offer to take them. And don't think this is your chance to head off to camp for a quiet hike or a good book. The press gangs jump on you faster than the deer flies. "We really need an Elangomat for the adult clan -- Cheerful Service, you know." I cheerfully served the prior three weekends, thank you very much. When I've asked to send non-OA adults, I get a "Well..... if you have to but they can't go to any of the activities." Heck, I'd be more inclined to go if I didn't have to participate in the activities. I understand none of this may be official policy (which I have asked to have clarified a couple times) but it is very clearly the culture and expectation of the local lodge. Everyone is expected to be a gung-ho Arrowman. Just sending your Scouts really isn't enough. I always feel like I'm at an Amway convention walking around saying, "No, really, I just want to buy a box of detergent...." And yes, I've recruited other adults from the troop to join OA. It's not an easy sell. Most adults who volunteer a full week at summer camp (one of the joining requirments) may very well feel they are giving enough time to Scouting without biting off another commitment. Two of the three of our adult nominees were mis-fires. But after about three years of carrying the troop's OA program myself, I finally have an ASM who has really taken over as troop advisor. Of course, OA is now his full-time commitment, so I'm now down one ASM So please, don't tell me it only takes 10 minutes to schedule an election. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

And witness the numbers here who either have or want to give the OA a chance but have decided the program just doesn't work for them due either to structural problems in the program or operational issues with their lodges. Me included. I've posted a couple times (not necessarily this thread) about the problem I have dealing with the commitment OA requires of unit leaders. That's a real concern, but no one wants to talk about that. Instead, you want to fixate on folks have already make up their mind to reject the program. You have a handful of ready, willing and able buyers here who are looking for an excuse to buy in. But you don't want to hear their input or concerns about your product, just defend the status quo.

I also think it's important to remember that we are, if I understand correctly, talking about a violation of BSA rules, not criminal conduct. Grown adults sitting around a campfire sipping an adult beverage isn't illegal, even if there are children present. If you think these guys are getting hammered-drunk and ripping up and down the road with the boys in the back of the pickup, then call law enforcement. Around here, child endangerment would be one of the charges tacked onto the list. That changes your reporting threshhold considerably. And as Beavah, Esq., will remind us, may vary by jurisdiction. But if it's four guys splitting a sixpack after the kids are asleep, to me that's a matter for the pack and CO to handle internally. For those outside the unit it falls under the MYOB guidelines.

"... do I choose to hit him hard or use the situation to show leniency and guide him and mentor him?" Do you really have to ask? This whole thing with contracts and standards and concerned/nosey parents and DEs is just WAAAAY over the top. Someone, hopefully you, Cross, needs to be the voice of reason and throw a bucket of cold water on this fire. The boy's actions merit a short, friendly, informal chat from a Scouter with a sincere interest in the boy's well being. PERIOD. I sure wish the scout would post here and ask for advice. If any more is made of this than the above friendly chat, he needs to tell you all, "thank you for your concern, sir, but with all due respect, my personal tastes in entertainment are really none of your business."

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and scars. When I was in high school, my tight-wad father decided we needed to heat with wood. It was not long after the energy crisis and a lot of folks were doing it. It was fun for a while, being out in he woods, cutting trees, splitting wood. But soon, reality set in. To burn wood the whole winter, you have to cut wood the whole summer. The house, your clothes, you constantly smell like smoke. The house is always tracked up with sawdust, bark and dirt from hauling wood in and ashes out. With 5 or 6 neighbors doing the same, the neighborhood looked like something out of a Dickens novel. And no, it didn't heat worth a flip. We had a long, narrow '60s ranch which was not designed for single-source heat. You could hang tobacco in the den where the stove was and killed hogs in the bedrooms. Fortunately, I went to college after a couple seasons. When I'd come home with my girlfriend (now Mrs.), she would sleep on the sofa in the den to try and stay warm. By the time my brother went to school and the slave labor evaporated, the cost analysis changed and he converted to a new gas furnace.

In the thread on OA Flaps, Beaver wrote: "Being a Chapter Adviser, there is nothing I'd like better than have every boy who gets elected do their Ordeal and that every boy who does his Ordeal become active. That is my pipe dream. The reality is that they were elected by the peers to be honored for their example in their troop." I never really thought of it this way, but Scouts are elected by their troops to honor their leadership, service and commitment to the troop, not for their interest or desire to join the OA. Okay, so the guys in my troop think I'm the bees knees, what about that suggests that I need to get involved in another organization and commit to additional time and effort to a different area of Scouting. If they elect me to a Venture crew do I have to go? From that perspective, it really shouldn't be a surrise that a good number of inductees join but don't really get involved.

Is Jimmy's sister a #@%&! ? Or as I tell my new scout parents, "welcome to middle school."(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

You in my council, Fred? I've heard the complaint about the new program that, "we'll end up failing the projects at the EBOR" and "what happens when the EBOR turns down a project and the Scout is already 18?" Don't buy it. The crux of the new system -- and apparently what is bothering some -- is the responsiblity for approving the details of the plan fall to the unit, where it should be. "But some units will pencil-whip projects and some Scouts will get away with easier projects than others!" And how is that different from anything else? As has always been the case, the primary judge of the Eagle project, like all other requirements, is the unit leader. Anyone serving on and EBOR who approaches the process with the idea they are there to give a thumbs up or down to the project needs to rethink their involvement. The new workbook is sufficient for the Scout to communicate the basic scope of the project. If the proposal doesn't communicate to the council/district enough information for them to conclude the project is of sufficient scope and the young man has a handle on what he's getting into, then they should not approve it. There is going to be a learning curve here, for both the unit leaders and the council/district folks. I, for one, still believe projects should be of sufficient scope for the Scout to adequately demonstrate leadership. One indicator of a good project is to take more than one day and/or multiple steps to execute. Scout-hours (not to be confused with man-hours) are another indicator, but not as good as days/sessions. Over multiple days, good projects ebb and flow, problems arise which require adaptation and solutions.

I hafta say, Dean, I take it a bit more seriously than that. (And so you know from where I speak, I'll also note that as I type this I'm finishing off the last dram of a fine bottle of Glenmorangie single malt.) We don't imbibe on troop campouts period. I'm on the clock 24/7 when out with the troop, and I'm not going to chance having to drive a Scout to the ER at 3am with the last of a Red Solo Cup on my breath. And since they were about age nine, the boys stay up way past the adults anyway. Without the boys it's a different deal. Many a committee meeting has been held at the Irish pub down the way from the Scout House or at one of my ASM's really fine lakeside bar. I think your council showed a lack of judgement holding an open-bar event with youth in attendance. I sure hope the boys weren't serving the drinks -- minors serving alcohol is illegal here. Personally, if you invite my family to your daughter's wedding and have an open bar, I have no problem with my sons being in attendance. But Scouts are different. First, they're not my kids and I don't know how their parents may think on the subject. Secondly, it's against policy. That said, we're not far off in our advice for WCS. Here, I have a relationship with my DE where I could let him know what I have heard and he would let me know how to proceed -- all off the record. But not everyone has that luxury. That notwithstanding, I don't think it's WCS's responsibility to police other units. If the other parent wants the DE's number, I'd provide it, but the rest is between that pack, their CO and the council.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I've had one project approved under the new format and have another in the signature collection phase. My understanding is the boxes don't expand because that's as much as they want you to write. Of course the font size will disappear into the grain of the paper, but I'd say you need to cut back on the explaination. It's now a proposal, not a plan. The Scout whose project was approved was already well into the old-style plan when the new forms came out. He had already completed drawings, materials lists, budgets and schedules for his project. Since he had them, I suggested he add them as attachments to the new work book. My feedback from the review committee (our district AC and one spy) was that the committee (which had previously resigned en masse in protest of the new system) was actually rather satisfied with his proposal. Since the details of the actual plan is now the responsibility of the unit, we're asking our Life scouts to develop their plans to at least this level. We want to see that the Scout has thought through the project to the degree that he understands what he is getting into and has a resaonable chance of success. Consequently, it seems reasonable to include that material with the proposal we're sending the council. Of course, what we're eliminating is the 30 pages of boiler plate and baloney the council formerly required and just asking the Scouts to develop the stuff they really need to execute a plan.

I had a Eagle Scoutmaster conference once at the conclusion of which I felt the need to remind the candidate to watch his language at his Board of Review. His dad was an ASM and is a good friend so I knew well this was a situation where the apple hit the ground and rolled back toward the tree. I think I would find an excuse for a casual conversation with the fellow (not a formal meeting) and remind him his obligation is to follow the Scout Law "in his everyday life" not just while leading the troop or conducting a Scouts' Own service. Beyond that, I'm having a difficult time concluding why this would be any of the troop's business. Besides, my plate's full dealing with the stuff actually on my plate. And I heartily support Kudu's suggestion for him (and everyone else) to watch Patton! I'll have the Butter Lite.

So, based on the info in the thread on flaps, how is it in some lodges the requirement for receiving a flap is to complete the Ordeal, some lodges it is to complet the Ordeal and a certain amount of service work and in some lodges it is to complete Brotherhood? Is "don't add to requirements" not part of the terms and conditions for lodges?

To my knowledge, we've never had ordeal, brotherhood and vigil flaps, but we did have "lifetime member" (aka "prepaid dues") flaps. Those were dropped after the rule changed. I don't think anyone was particularly upset. I can't imagine a lodge withholding flaps from ordeal members -- I'd tell 'em to kiss my foot. If that's the only way you can get folks to complete brotherhood, then that speaks volumes about your program.

Every few years BSA contracts some company to do a directory. It seems to be one of those who's-who things where they list you in the book then try to sell you a copy at $80 or $100. I bit a few years ago. When I got the book, I spent some time looking up a number of Eagles I known -- guys I knew back in the day as well as those I know as adults now. Out of about 35 guys I looked up, I think only 6 or 8 were in the book. A real rip=off. On the other hand, if you're mining for contacts or leads among old Eagles, not trying to find individuals, it may be okay.

Oh for pete's sake. Is the mother bed-ridden? Institutionalized somewhere? When the child is at home it responsibility of the parent to control his behavior. This woman needs to do her dang job as a parent and quit trying to blame other people for her inability to parent her son. He's learning to build fires at BOY SCOUTS for heavens sake. What's she going to do when he starts practicing behaviors he learns from watching TV, video games, or hanging out with his friends? Who will she call and blame them? Sheeesh.

Do lodges have JTE standards or something like "Quality Lodge?" Are the results posted anywhere? How about statistics on retention rates -- Ordeal members who continue on as dues paying members. How rates for brotherhood conversion? Seems to me our conflict here is between those with good lodges and not.

Except that I am a Scoutmaster and Brotherhood member. I was chapter vice chief of somethin-er-other as a youth and spent three or four year pushing the boys in my troop to get involved. I drove my troop rep to most chapter meetings for a year and a half (Lord, what an incredible waste of time) and have attended at least one of the two ordeal weekends every year. I understand what the program should be. But it isn't. Still, I'm not the one saying "we don't do OA." I've worked hard to establish the OA as part of our troop program. But it's pushing a string up hill and my guys vote with their feet. Over four or five years, I've had maybe 15 or 18 scouts inducted. Most are gone after their ordeal. But I've had a few who have really given it a shot, tried to get involved, and stuck with it for a year or more. Eventually they run the numbers and they drop too. Fortunately, right now I have a troop OA advisor. But if he gets hit by a bus, I'm not picking up the slack again. There is no return on investment. My time and effort are better spent delivering a good troop program

Personally, I'd be out recruiting a new committee chairman so you can slide in as CM. More folks have the ability to manage a small volunteer group, fewer understand the Scout program and have an aptitude for working with the boys. Til then, one of the ways you drive this using the committee is to make sure all the plans are clearly communicated to the committee and all adult leaders. If everyone is aware of the plans, it is far easier for a DL or another parent to execute the plans when your CM flakes out on you again.

Sounds like the boy is having a difficult time overcoming his upbringing.

Don't get me started on behavior during the National Anthem. How about the the twit singing who's trying to turn it in to an audition for American Idol. Do I get to be the surley British guy who rips him a new one? The best renditions of the anthem are the folks who ask everyone to sing along, then sing the tune as written so everyone CAN sing along. Spare me the artsy warbling toward the end. Next are the yahoos who feel the need to let out a war cry at the end of every phrase. Used to be all the jackasses had to hollar after "land of the free", now it's through the entire song. A notible exception to this I will call the McHenry Rule. At a Ravens game, all the "Balimer" fans yelled "HERE!" after the phrase "that our flag was still there." Cool. I chalk that up to understandable patriotic pride. Of course there are the miscellaneous morons who continue to mill about, talk, text and drink beer. A disgusted glare works well. If not try a swat to the back of their head with your own hat, followed by a quick apology -- "Oh, did I bump you? I am terribly sorry. I was TAKING MY HAT OFF FOR THE NATIONAL ANTHEM" Back to the OP, I think hat ettiquete has changed. First of all, where are the hat check girls? I mean, what are you supposed to do with you hat? Take summer camp. 250 people with identical hats. What are we supposed to do with them? (I know you can tuck them the back of your belt, but that's beside the point.) And how about hat hair? After wearing a hat all day, I consider it a discourtesy to remove my hat in proper company. You guys remember Bill the Cat in Bloom County? I am pleased to report that our summer camp has changed it's philosophy regarding hats in the dining hall. It only took six years of me **** ing and complaining. Used to be, the dining hall nazi, um, steward would come up behind a boy with a hat and snatch it off his head, then hold all the hats which only Scoutmasters could retreive. So we're teaching courtesy by assaulting our Scouts? Nice. Finally, they've decided the way to enforce the no hats rule is to politely remind the Scouts to remove them. Now was that so hard?

This is no problem. The trick is you don't turn troop meetings into MB classes and make the MB automatic at the end of the month. Use troop meetings instruction time to teach merit badge "topics." Don't try to complete specific requirements and sign off on the merit badges themselves. If a Scout wants to complete the MB, they have to take the initiative to pull a blue card, make an appointment with the counselor and use the knowledge he learned during troop meetings to complete the MB. We do this all the time. Sometime a good number of the boys will go on to earn the MB, sometimes few or none will. That's okay too. Everyone learned something wether they get the badge or not.

Hi, Playtypus. It is always good to hear the persepctive of the Scouts here. Too often it is missing. It is terrific you are having such a great experience with OA. Actually, what you describe is a lot like what I experienced in OA as a Scout. We lived in a small town with a small chapter and only one high school. But we had quite a few strong troops. While many of they guys I was in OA with were from my troop, and I knew the rest through school, OA was an opportunity for all of us to get together in a Scouting setting with our friends from other troops. BUT, not one of my troop leaders were ever required to drive us anywhere or attend an OA function. We made our own way to meetings and the OA adults were only OA leaders -- not Scoutmasters pulling double duty. Of course that was pre-two deep days, so one chapter advisor could take 10 or 12 arrowmen out for the weekend. In my current lodge, Scouts' participation in OA is reliant on the efforts of the adult troop leaders. OA functions are essentially troop functions requiring troop resources to get arrowmen to and from events and to provide adult leadership. For three our four years, I've been the only adult OA member in our troop and it has fallen to me to attend OA functions with my Scouts. This is in addition to my other responsibilities as the Scoutmaster of an active troop with 60 boys. Fortunately, this past year I recruited one ASM to be troop OA advisor and he's taken most of the responsibility. But his focus on the OA means one ASM I don't have for general troop programs and I still have to accompany our brothers to events when he's unavailable. Perhaps your Lodge's rules for adult attendance are different, or maybe your Scoutmaster is also interested and active in the OA. Maybe he has his own circle of friends in OA and enjoys attending. If that is the case, hauling a car load of Scouts to OA activities is no additional effort. But the point some of the adults here are making is about priorities and resources. To some of us leaders here, OA is just one more Scouting activity asking for one more night a month and three or four more weekends a year away from our families. We neede to ask ourselves if OA is the best use of our time. Is providing you the opportunity to hang out with your friends more important that us handing out with our wives and daughters? Look, we are all already Boy Scout volunteer leaders. We have already made the choice to devote a great deal of time to the program. But as others have said, OA becomes just one more in a very long list of program options demanding our time. There is no lack of opportunities to do something else within the program. If I click on our council web site, the entire home page is full of programs our troop could participate -- some require a few hours of my time, some require a few weeks. So with all the options and competing interests, how do we decide where we invest our time? Of course in a youth-led program, we ask the Scouts. But personally, we each decide if the added value of the program justifies the cost of our time and effort. If our troop's involvement in the OA requires me to attend a chapter meeting every month, then four additional campouts per year and the only added benefit is the Platypus get additional hang time with his pals, it's just not going to happen. Frankly, you can set up your own play dates. Have your parents drop you off at the mall like every other teenager in America! Of course I'm just kidding about the mall. I absolutely see the value of you spending time with your OA buddies. But I need a better reason than that to invest in the OA. You, as an Arrowman, can help tip the balance in favor of OA. Hicountry posted some pretty good stuff about how the OA should approach it's relationships with troops. Perhaps you can guide your chapter and lodge to put more emphasis on Service than Brotherhood. How can your lodge serve the troops? What can you do to make your SMs jobs easier? (Usually anything involving coffee is a good start.) When was the last time you thanked your SM for making OA available to you? (That will go a lot further than you may imagine.) What can you do to involve more Scouts from your troop?

"Our collective fates are tied together..." Precisely. And the one party to all this which OUGHT to be most concerned with the collective image of Scouting is the council. The DE is in the best position to mediate this but has apparently washed his/her hands of it. At minimum, the DE should be the one calling the families and explaining to them that Sasha has nothing to do with the other pack. I simply don't think it Sasha's responsibility or place to intervene between the families and the other pack.