Twocubdad

My son's new troop handles this by having the Boy Scout Instructor/Guide initial the checklist in the front of the handbook when he teaches the skill and believes the Scout can do it. The Scout must then demonstrate the skill for the SM or an ASM who initials the "official" checklist in the back of the handbook. Seems to be a good balance between boy lead and taught but with the adults responsible for as quality control.

I think the membership policy has the potential to create some problems on the Webelos side. Perhaps that's the info that BSA is trying to collect with the questions (although I think an Eagle application is an odd place to gather it.) Depending on the age requirement for starting school in your area, most boys turn 11 sometime during the 5th grade. In our area the school age cutoff is October 1. So our boys are turning 11 anytime from the fall of the 5th grade through the summer and first couple months of the 6th grade. Since part of the Webelos-to-Boy Scout transition is to crossover the boys early enough in the spring that they get a few months in the troop under their belts prior to summer camp, better than half our Webelos crossed over last months solely because they had earned their Arrow of Light. They were neither 11 nor had completed the 5th grade. The potential problem is what do you do with the boys who don't earn their AoL and are not yet 11? Our Webelos dens dissolve March 1 when the boys cross over. I can't see a Webelos leader continuing to meet to accommodate one boy who doesn't meet the Boy Scout joining requirements. Fortunately, we've not had that problem as all our guys got their AoL. We did have one Scout who joined the pack last fall as a Webelos II. At the time, I advised him and his parents that earning the AoL in 6 months would would be an aggressive goal, or he could simply look at his time in Webelos to get to know the other Scouts and get ready to join Boy Scouts in March. I'll have to change my advice to boys in that situation. Unfortunately, it may mean that depending on their birthday, they will have to earn the AoL or have the possibility of sitting out a couple months during the spring. I can't imagine that is the route BSA intends.

along the same lines as the NRA medal, what's the deal with the US Heritage Awards. Our council really pushed them through Webelos Resident camp last year, but looking at the Insignia Guide, there is no mention of the award. My understanding was that the Heritage program has the same standing as the religious emblems. What's the deal?

I'm just dang proud to get to the end of the parade with the same number of kids we started with. You want them to march? Actually, a couple of times when my dens have been responsible for presenting the colors, we made a stab at marching in time. I came to the conclusion that it would take more time to teach than it's worth -- with Cub-aged boys anyway. Maybe Boy Scouts can catch on a little quicker. But I don't see the value in spending 2 or 3 den meetings teaching something that isn't really part of the program.

Since posting the above, I found that the national-run Scout shop stocks the "Webelos Super Achiever" patch, although our council shop does not. It's a round patch with a gold border, a big "SA" in the center and "Webelos Super Achiever" around the perimeter. The background is the Webelos tartan. Any Scout shop should be able to get it for you.

Foto has the right idea. A Cub Scout uses profanity or hits another kid, he goes home. No discussion. No okay from the Cubmaster or committee. Separate the boy from the den, call the parents and tell them to come get him. It is not your job to deal with the boy's discipline problems, it's his parent's responsibility. If this were the first instance, I would tell him and his parents that he is welcome to come back to the next meeting as long as he is able to behave himself as a Scout. But since he is already on strike two (or better) I would add that he is welcome back only if he and his parents can convince you that he sincerely wants to do better. If not, he needs to find another den. The Cubmaster needs to lead, follow or get out of the way, and I would tell him exactly that. He can either support you or replace you. As a Cubmaster and former Commmittee chairman, I am all about taking care of my den leaders, especially in a situation like this. If the CM wants to move the boy to another den or take him on as a personal project, then he can have at it. But I wouldn't tolerate the boy's behavior for a minute. I'm not a great believer in the sentiment that "boys like him are the ones who need Scouting the most." I'll agree with that up to a point, but I put greater stock in the idea that if you can't behave like a Scout then you can't be a Scout.

I a builder and buy 6 mil poly in 400sf rolls. It's cheap, light, tough and easy to fold or roll. When our pack goes on an outing, I'll throw a roll in the back of the truck for emergency backup. I don't know about Tyvek. One of it's properties is that it allows water vapor to pass, like Gortex. It will keep you tent bottom clean, but I don't know about dry. I got suckered into buying a Eurka ground cloth a couple years ago. I assumed it would be a much heavier-duty poly than what I use. When I got it home, it was nothing more that a sheet of poly -- and maybe even a little lighter than the normal 6 mil. For the 10 bucks I paid for it, I can buy 200sf of the same stuff at the lumber yard.

Are you just trying to be a horse's pittut, FOG, or did we not have our oat bran this morning? "If it makes no difference, why bother?" Is that how you teach your scouts about duty and obligation? "It makes no difference if we clean up the park, guys. It will look just like this in another month." "It makes no difference if we visit the nursing home. Most of the geezers won't know were there any way."

For sure it's ultimately up to the Scoutmaster/troop. I'm just intererest to know what the official answer is. It doesn't seem right that some troops allow it and other's don't. It would be easy to come up with a "net service hours" we could report back to the troops. It would be a nice touch to send to send a letter to the SMs letting them now thanking them for their Scouts' service and reporting the hours they put in.

I'm dealing with a number of bull-headed Scoutmasters, so I need a definitive answer, hopefully with some documentation to back it up. Should the time a Boy Scout spends volunteering at Cub Scout Day Camp count as service hours? The argument I'm hearing is that there is a prohibition against community service projects benefiting the BSA. I understand this is the case with Eagle projects, but does it apply to all service projects? It would make sense that, for example, building picnic tables at the campsite your troop regularly uses would be for your own benefit, not necessarily the community at large. However, I don't see a Boy Scouts working at Cub day camp is going to benefit the Boy Scout. I'll add that the way we usually use Boy Scout volunteers is to have them work most of the day, but also provide them an opportunity to work on a merit badge or two during the camp, so there is a little something in it for them. We also designate a day camp SPL and SM who work with the Boy Scouts, organizing them and planning the merit badge sessions. The response I getting seems to vary from troop to troop, SM to SM. As camp director, I'd like to be able to have an answer backed up by the facts. Thoughts?

While the thread in question seems to have devolved to "You're stupid!" "No, you're stupid!" "No, you're stupid!" "No, you're stupid!" etc., etc., etc, at least it involve a real, Scout-related political issue. (Anyone else see Brother Bear? That was my favorite part of the movie.)

You can set the table, but you can't make them eat. If that's the lesson the parents' want to teach, there's not much you can do about it. On the plus side, not having to deal with fundraising should make your life easier. I think one factor the parents may be responding to is the total number of fundraising events the kids are involved in. Scouting and school are the only two activities my boys have to raise money for. Popcorn is our pack only fundraiser, but the school is constantly raising money. A couple years ago the PTA suggested that parents simply donate $100 per child to the school and they would eliminate the fund raising. I couldn't write the check fast enough.

The "Money Where Your Mouth Is" knot. I like that, TP, I'll use it. A few years ago I organized a reunion of all the Eagles in my old troop. We collected enough money to have our SM made a West Fellow with enough left over to contribute several thousand to the local campership fund. Honestly, if I knew then what I know now, I would have contributed to entire amount to the Council's endowment fund. West Fellowships are great ways to honor someone. How many wool jackets and hiking staffs do they really need? Questions: is the $1,000 contribution a national standard, or does it vary from council to council?

My wife has a name for guys like that: shlubs. It's one of those quasi-Yiddish words for which the meaning is partially derrived from the sound of the word. Part of the difficulty is that there is a lot of variation in "field uniforms." While either may be technically acceptable, most folks understand there is -- or should be -- a difference between the uniforms you wear to your Eagle BoR and the one you wear to dinner the fifth night of summer camp. "Class A" doesn't really solve that problem, unless you're willing to go the Class A, B, C, D route. I will say that in our area "Class A" and "Class B" are synonymous with "Field Uniform" and "Activity Uniform," as described in the book. Our old CM was like yours, Beaver. Great guy, top-notch Scouter, but for some reason had a burr under his blanket for Cub Scout pants. At last year's new Scout orientation we intentionally assigned the uniform talk to someone else. Lo and behold, the Cubmaster jumps up to the mic to add that official cub pants aren't required, that jeans are okay. Aoy!(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Someone could write their PhD thesis on the Psychology and Psychosis of Pinewood Derbies. I think the conversation with the boy is a good idea and would probably leave it at that. If he is moved to return the trophy or do something more, fine, but if you've made your point, I wouldn't press it. We had a similar ballot stuffing problem two years ago. We fortunately caught it early on, threw out all the ballots and started voting over. The whole thing was handled with a very somber Cubmaster's Minute to close the meeting. Now we make sure to announce that you can only vote once and have an adult hand out the ballots one at a time. Sort of a funny counterpoint to that: this year we had one Cub with a really, really cool car. Everyone ooohed and aaaahed over the car and it was pretty much a slam dunk for the design trophy. But the kid who owned it over-played his hand. While in line for the voting, he was politicking for votes, saying stuff like "Wow, that's a really cool car. I'm voting for it," all the while pretending that it wasn't his car. As things often happen in the jungle and on the playground, retribution was swift. The other boys took offense at his tactics and blackballed him. He only got one vote. His own. At the same time, the voting for the best Wolf car was very close -- an eight-way tie for first. Every single kid voted for his own car. Secretly, we grabbed a committee of disinterested parents who broke the tie. You gotta love those Wolves!

If rlculver is still around, I'd be interested in an update. What was the outcome of the appeal to national? Did they list any grounds for approving/denying the appeal? Were there any specific instructions to the troop advancement committee?

Cubmaster Asst. Scoutmaster (brand new, no real assignment yet) District Day Camp Director District Committee at large

A couple of thoughts/observations: First, I don't think it is correct to look at BALOO and WLOT as "basic" and "advanced" courses. In my opinion, BALOO is much better in terms of covering health and safety, BSA policy, planning, etc. WLOT short changes much of that information, but adds information on how to teach Outdoorsman, Naturalist, Geologist and Forester Webelos activity pins. I took WLOT first and learned things in BALOO that weren't covered in WLOT. If I were going to change anything, I would make BALOO the basic course with a suplemental course for the Webelos pins. As has been said before, don't expect any course to make you Daniel Boone overnight. These courses are more about BSA procedures than camping skills. But more to the point is that you don't have to be Daniel Boone to take Cubs camping. You need to be thinking "backyard" not "backcountry." Our pack has never camped anywhere that flush toilets and running water weren't within sight of the fire ring. Our camps always have a permanent emergency shelter and either an ice maker or refrigerator. You can usually pitch you tent immediately beside your car. This is camping only in the sense that we sleep in tents. When I think about taking our pack camping, I think in terms of two problems: one is programming. We are essentially planning a 36-hour den meeting. In our pack the Cub Master and den leaders take the lead in this. The second problem is catering which is the responsibility of the outing committee (along with planning, reservations, transportation, etc.) This can vary greatly from pack to pack, but when we camp we typically have from 40 to 125 people to feed. We've had other threads about camp cooking for groups, so I won't repeat it here. But the bottom line is this: when planning a Cub Scout camping trip, if you are worried about a clean water supply, having to poop in a cathole, and how to find your camp on a map, you're camping in the wrong place.

Cub Leader version, in a junky old hardshell plastic Sampsonite briefcase, listed roughly in order top to bottom: A thick stack of papers (most of which could be tossed) primarily consisting of flyers and registration forms for various activities and training sessions, uniform inspection sheets, den rosters, advancement reports, etc. Webelos Handbook Guide to Safe Scouting Bag of ashes from our last campout. Youth and adult applications. Two half-finished USA Today crosswords. Ziplock bag containing an assortment of Cub Scout advancement badges and push pins I use to make a display board at ever pack meeting (and provide emergency backup for our advancement chair.) Stack of blank Whitlin Chip cards. Cub Scout Leader Fast Start video American Flag Half-dozen patches from various outings Variety of pens, pencils and Sharpies. Envelope of magicians' flash paper Small bag of summertime participation pins And most important of all, an emergency stash of Advil.

We do FOS at our B&G in February. If we wait until March or April, attendence is way down due to spring sports kicking in. We've played around with where to do it on the program, but this year we did the opening, invocation, FOS and then dinner. This give parents the time to complete their pledge cards over dinner or while waiting their turn to get in line. It also allows our FOS guy time to button-hole specific individuals. Some presentations have been better than others, but I can't say that any have been notably bad. This is just my opinion, but I don't really think the actual presentation makes a huge difference. Generally, folks are either committed or not and and will contribute what they feel they can. Probably more important to the bottom line is making sure folks understand the mechanics; that you're only looking for a pledge not a check, and that they can break up the pledge and be billed monthly or quarterly.

Excellent! Yesterday I wrote a fairly long post on the general direction of the board which I decided to sleep on. The subject line was "ENOUGH!" if that gives you any indication of where I was headed. I like your approach better. I'll move mine to the draft folder.

My first thought is what a remarkably vain comment that was. But then I'm reminded that very little in politics is off the cuff. McCain has been actively campaigning for Bush is the primary states. Most likely is that this is simply an attempt to remind the Republican power brokers not to steer the campaign too far to the right and ignore the moderates. Even if McCain came up with this on his own, it's his way of saying, "Don't forget about me or I can still cause you trouble." Jesse Jackson has been doing it to the Democrats for years.

Marty, that was essentially what I was asking a few days back when I asked if this is really just a matter of semantics. If ItsMe has all the bases cover and asks his CM and CC to approve his den campout as an official pack event, is he legal? We, or at least many of us, are not just leaders of Cub Scouts but also leaders of other Cub Scout leaders. I don't like to get into the game of manipulating the rules to do what we wanted to do in the first place. That's not the example I want to set. HOWEVER, there is a difference between that had having a sufficient understanding of the rules to intelligently apply them. Thus far, no one has disagreed with the idea that a pack campout needn't be cancelled if only the members of one den choose to attend. Why not? That's not covered in the rules. That's the 56-in-55 kind of violation I believe foto is talking about. If one of my den leaders wants to take his den camping, I would tell him den campouts are against BSA policy, but let's see what we can do to make the outing happen and stay within the policy.

Repetition. Start early leading your Tiger den in the Promise and Law of the Pack. Ultimately, memorizing those are the only real issue. Have a poster (from Scout shop or make one) with the words on it so they can read along. You can make a game by writing each line of the Promise and Law on a separate strip of paper and have a relay race to see how can get them in the proper order first. But the only way the boys are really going to learn them is to spend 30 minutes focusing on memorizing them. Once they do that, they've got it. Until they do, it will be a struggle.

Congratulations, Wheeler, on what must be your most conscise and reasonable post to date! (This most recent one, most definitely not the first one in the thread.) But here is the essential flaw in your thesis: You begin with a false premise that the purpose of Scouting was to "rigorize boys into men," therefore your conclusion that Scouting has been compromised is also false. Time and again you have demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of Scouting. Until you are willing to eduacate yourself as to the purpose and goals of Scouting, you're not going to be taken seriously here.