Twocubdad

Any thoughts, suggestions? My son's troop is looking to replace its old Coleman camp stoves. The SM is strongly in favor of more white gas stoves, his main reason being that propane won't burn when it's too cold. But here in the southeast, I don't really think that's a problem. We were out a few weeks ago in 18 degree weather, about the coldest we get around here, and my own propane stove worked just fine. Personally, I think the safety of the fuel is reason enough to go with propane. I also like the ability to run mutiple stoves and lights off the same cylinder. I suggested we have the PLC study the subject and come back with a recommendation, but was looked at like I had something hanging out of my nose.

We pay for them all. We won't, however give a scout a duplicate if he earns the same BL twice. So far our pack pays for religious emblems and heritage awards, too. That can be a big chunk of change. I just ordered a bunch of heritage awards and they are $8.50 each. When my sons earned their Religious emblems they were over $20 each, including the mothers pins, etc. Pretty expensive!

We don't have a bugler, but we do have a piper. Now that will wake you up! They're not much for revelle, but they're great for Scout's Own services and Courts of Honor. (I usta be a bugler, and a good ol' bugler too.)

The boys came up with a few ideas at their last troop meeting. My job is to workout the construction details and required materials. I'm just trying to understand the parameters.

By the book, I don't think there's anything with wrong with this for Tenderfoot, Second and First Class. For Star and up the requirements require that certain things be completed "while a First Class Scout" or "while a Star Scout" etc. This would preclude doing this for the higher ranks. I assume that the Scout in question has done all these requirements over a period of time and is just behind on the BORs. Is there any reason he can't wait a month or so between ranks?

Number One Son has made it off the waiting list and into a Jamboree troop. Wasting no time, the Scoutmaster, a buddy of mine, asked me to take the lead on designing and building the gateway. Does anyone have any experience with these things? I've downloaded the engineered plans from the jambo website, but may have the wrong plans. This thing looks more like a parking deck than a gateway -- the way it's engineered you could drive a truck across it. The leaders' guide seems to say that the plans are suggested, not an absolute. How much variation from the plans are allowed? Are the dimensions on the plans maximums or are there any such specifications. How far do you break the gateways down for transportation? The trade off is between compactness for shipping versus the amount of construction time required on site. Can you count on the site being fairly level? Otherwise, how do you account for the slope? I could put jack screws on the bottom of all the bearing points, but that gets pricy quick. What else do I need to consider?

We give a "best design" award at every age group and overall "best design" and "most creative" at the pack level. The boys all vote on the winners. We've seen some interesting dynamics in the voiting. One year all the Tigers -- all 14 of them -- each voted for their own car, a 14-way tie. We had a couple parents secretly break the tie. Another time one boy who had a really cool car spent the evening at the table politicking for his car to win. Worse yet, he pretended the car wasn't his -- "Ooo, look at that car, isn't it cool? I'm voting for it." Everyone knew it was his car and voted for someone else. I think the boys are onto the awards that everyone receives. A few years ago we had a Lad-Dad bakeoff and came up with a creative prize for every cake, "best use of the color green," and stuff like that. I overheard a couple of the boys grousing that the prizes were bogus and that everyone won something. Nine and 10 year olds especially have a very good sense of when adults are blowing smoke their way. We now give participation prizes at check-in. We also try to do something the boys will like, not just a ribbon. In the past we had little caribiners, compasses and pen lights. They're usually about a buck or so.

Our tigers build PWDs and have a ball with it. Building a car should be a parent/son project.

I don't believe that leaders are so much interested in merit badges per se, but in seeing that the boys are involved and active in some valuable activity. In addition to merit badges, our camp offers a week-long COPE course, an 1850 farmstead program, high adventure trips, etc. None of these result directly in merit badges but are great programs.

I'll second SP idea. Although we make a big deal of everyone moving up at the end of May, we also turn somewhat of a blind eye toward the timing of any advancement during the summer. If a boy need more time in the summer to finish last year's rank, fine. If he wants to get started on next year's (which most do as summer camp), that's okay too. Besides getting the TDL trained, I would also involve the Cubmaster and Committee Chairman. (Although if these are the ones coming up with the goofy schedule, I don't know that they will be much help.) The pack is in great danger of loosing these five boy and someone needs to intervene NOW. It isn't the Den Leader's den to do with as she wishes. Here commitment is to deliver the program as it is outlined by BSA. If she wants to simply do crafts, she needs to start a different club for that. Point out to her that coming up with a craft out of the blue every week is a whale of a lot tougher than to simply follow the program. Franlky, most of the Tiger stuff is pretty basic and easy to execute.

Our troop is purposefully light on "policies." Since I'm one of the primary ASMs for the NSP and have a son in that patrol, it makes it a bit awkward not to sign off for my son. The troop doesn't have a problem with me doing so, although I personally prefer not to. My reason is more that I want my son, a normally shy kid, to have to go to another adult for his sign-offs. But when we are in a group setting, for example the whole patrol recently completed the orienteering course, I'll sign my son's book along with everyone else.

You may have missed the part in an earlier post where I explained that each "heat" consists of four runs with the cars rotating across the track to eliminate any lane bias. So everyone gets to see their cars make at least four trips down the track, although it is only four consecutive trips for some. I'm more than happy with the PWD. I just think six hours of racing, plus another hour of the pack meeting the following night devoted to voting on design awards and giving out trophies is more than enough, thank you very much. Personally, I much prefer building the cars than the actual race. I have a fairly substantial wood working shop and have anywhere from 20 to 30 boys and dads over to work on cars. A couple den usually schedule den meetings here during PWD season. To me, that's the fun part. Race day is just a lot of work. Personally, I think the Raingutter Regatta is a better program. There just isn't as much fancy stuff you can do to the boats and the outcome is much more dependant on how well the boys blow their boats. It is also very easy for the den leaders to set up two gutters and have a mini regatta at a den meeting. The boys enjoy playing with their boats as much as they do actually racing. Our PWD track takes about an hour to set up and not quite that long to tear down. It also requires reserving the church gym. Not many den leaders want to put forth that effort for 30 minutes of a den meeting. Besides, after watching the boys "play" with their PWD cars on the second track during the race, I don't think they really have that much fun simply watching their car run down the track.

Good point, kenk. Hitting another Scout -- regardless of the underlying reason or cause -- is a two-strike offense at most. You have an obligation to the other boys in the den. Going the extra mile to keep the ADHD boy in the den is of no benefit if others drop out because they are tired of getting hit. Loud, unruly, disruptive -- those you can work with. Hitting gets you sent home. I would think long and hard before getting involved in how the parents want to deal with the child. As Scouters we are trained that certain things are the exclusive domain of the boys' parents -- questions of religion, sexuality, punishment, etc. Health issues are certainly included in the list. Deal with the boy's behavior at den meetings. Let the parents take it from there

Maybe I don't get out much, but where would you go that you envision a group of Scouts being required to show photo IDs? How is security enhanced by someone checking that a 12-year-old kid has his school ID with him? When you show your ID on the way to work, the key part of the security process occurred when you were issued the ID, not when you show it at the gate. If National wants to go to the trouble and expense of issuing actual credentials so security people can verify that you are who you are and that you are authorized to be at the event, that's a different story. But requiring a school ID or something the troop cobbles together with a digital camera and laminating machine is nonsense.

So at a steady pace of one race per minute -- which would, frankly, be impossible to keep -- 600 races would only take 10 hours. Eagle, you may be right about the number of heats. I think I came up with the 1800 figure before we got the four lane track For those of you appalled by double elimination races, we're actually running a single elimination race. Half of the cars are retired after every round. Every couple years when we get a new PWD chairman we take a look at other formats. Frankly, given the number of boys we have and the time it would take to run one of the N races, it just isn't worth the time commitment. We're talking days.... We've eliminated the standing around factor by assigning start times for each rank. We start with the Webelos 2s and work down to the Tigers. We leave an hour for each rank. Because we normally have fewer Webelos and more Tigers, that give the race officials a little extra time in for the early races and pushes any overtime to the end. The pack final follows the Tiger race, which means the Webelos winners either leave and come back for the final of hang around all day. Bottom line is that it works for us. The boys who are eliminated from the race have plenty of other things to do. Many really get into watching the races and cheering for their buddies.

Has anyone come up with a design for a lightweight patrol box? When I was a Scout my old troop made patrol boxes to take to jamboree and used them extensively thereafter. They were build out of 3/4 ply with steel legs and weighed a ton. Fully loaded they took at least four people to carry. But they were really great to use. Each patrol customized their box with the things they liked to have on campouts -- spices, hot sauce, gear they like to use, etc. The door also dropped down to form a nice work surface. My son's troop uses plastic tubs, but they only hold the basic pots, pans and utensils. They are are difficult to keep organized. It would sure be nice if there was some compromise between the two.

How about the passive aggressive/backdoor approach. Start assigning the CC responsibilities to all the other leaders you have. If anyone questions it, just pass is off on the CC's new job assignment. In effect you're replacing him, you're simply avoiding the hassle of the confrontation and paperwork. We did this in our pack a few years ago. The then CC was AWOL most of the time and clueless when he was around. The new CM and I agreed that I would take over as CC. I assumed all the duties for about six months and then at recharter we just changed the names on the charter.

Another great example of useless security requirements that do nothing but create the illusion that the security people are doing something.

I ran the numbers on the Perfect n system for our pack a couple years ago. With close to 100 boys in our pack entering cars I believe it worked out to something over 1800 heats. Even if you could keep a pace of one heat per minute, well, you do the math.... With a four lane track each heat consists of four runs rotating across the lanes. The top two cars advance, the bottom two retire. Living in the heart of NASCAR country our boys are very familiar with the phrase, "that's racin'." We do have another track set up that the boys who are out of the competition can play on. We have Boy Scouts staff that track. We also bring in about 30 pizzas and make a full day of it. We've run the races this way for about thee years and it has worked well for us.

I've intended to jump in this thread for a couple of days. Your post, ST, gives me a good opportunity to make my point. Unless there are SUBSTANTAL changes to the overall training program, I hope to goodness they don't adopt the three year rule. Here's why: All BSA training courses are geared to the brand new volunteer with no experience in Scouting. And at one level that makes sense. For any particular position, it is probable that some of the people taking the course are newbies and the instruction needs to meet them at their level. But where does that leave the leader who has come up through the ranks with his son and is now training to be Cubmaster? Why does he need to sit through that infernal Pin the Badge on the Cub Scout game for a fourth or fifth time. The current cirrculum focuses on new leader training to the exclusion of growing leaders. There is no 102 course, much less 200 or 300 level courses. This is especially true since the changes in the Woodbadge program. Where Woodbadge was once considered "advanced" Scouter training, now they are making the point that that is no longer the case. While the Woodbadge leadership training seems beneficial (I sure hope so, I'm registered to take it this spring), where does one learn the details of the program? (Before anyone jumps in with the answer that Roundtable and other supplemental training is available, I'll say that our Roundtables have never provided any kind of useful training. The best we've ever gotten is a list of announcements and a couple craft ideas. But perhaps that's a local problem. Maybe other district's Roundtables are better run. Because of the way they are scheduled, our local Pow Wows don't do much good either. The are usually held the same day as the major training sessions. Especially with Cub leaders, most leaders who are tracking along with their sons need the next position specific course and can't take the Pow Wow electives.) I have three ideas I think would help: -- For Cub Scouts, I think they should go back to more of the old Cub Scout Leader Basic Training course for all Cub Leaders. The truely position-specific portions of the current course take less than an hour. Once a leader has the basic training they can add endorsements for each new position the take on. -- Combine BALOO and Webelos Outdoor training into one course. If you move the info on the outdoor-oriented activity pins to the Webelos position-specific course, there's not much difference between the two. If you are qualified to take a 60-boy pack camping, why can't you take 6 Webelos out? -- I think the Boy Scout Outdoor Skills course is a good one but would like to additional courses in the same manner. Maybe another course on advancement. How to conduct JTL could be a whole course. Perhaps one on administrative issues. But the point is the training process is cumulative, with one course building on the other. I can hear the training people out there saying "Geez, we can't get them to take one course, you want us to teach four more?" Well, yes. There will always be people who will only do the minimum but also those who want more training and information. And most importantly, for both programs, create an annual program update course. I would envision an hour or so session that could be offered in the spring (after the training staff is throught with the bulk of the fall training) and highlight any changes in the program. Over the past three years every level of the Cub program has been revised with no new instruction or training for the leaders. (I, for one, still don't completely understand this Character Connection thing.) This is the one way I can legitimately see a requirement for taking additional training every year or three. But if all they are doing is making me sit through the same introductory class again, that's a waste of time. How many folks out there are required to take continuing education for their jobs? Is it the same course every year, or is it new material? Sure, for some skills like CPR, you take the same training to maintain a certain level of proficiency. But most professional continuing ed courses present new material on changes in the profession. Many allow you to take specific courses on your area of expertise. I'll second KoreaScouter's thoughts on making training more available to leaders. Almost everyone of our courses here are held on Saturdays. While that's fine for 90% of volunteers, what about the other 10%? Holding training at camporees and summer camp is a great idea. I was able to knock out Safe Swim/Safety Afloat, Trek On and Climb On at camp this summer. It's more difficult to pull off a Cub events since adults are usually responsible for direct supervision of the boys, but it would be great to try.

I didn't know Greene was an Eagle. We've have Panther season tickets since the first season and I never knew that. Did Gerald Ford play in the NFL? I know he played at UM.

I was going to mention the West Fellowship, too, if you can go the $1000 they require. How many Eagles has your troop produced? How about a plaque with one "Silver Eagle" dollar coin attached for every Eagle in the troop? Does he have a red Woolrich Scout jacket? How about one personalized with a SM logo, his name, and something about Scoutmaster Emertius? (This is somewhat going along with Eamonn's thought that no one really retires and will have other opportunities to wear it.)

A couple points back on the original topic. First of all someone mentioned that Eagle, Religious Emblems and heroism awards are the only youth awards which can be worn as an adult. There is also an adult knot for the Arrow of Light. And yes, I have one on my uniform. Secondly, El Generalisimo may very well have earned more than the current 36 knots. There are a number of knots that have been retired but may still be worn if they were previously earned. Tiger Cub Coach is one that comes to mind. Thirdly, and most importantly, I don't honestly believe -- or perhaps I should say I can't comprehend -- that anyone is involved in Scouting solely for the knots. I've been back in Scouting five years since my son joined and I've earned four knots. Admittedly, the three den leader awards are fairly easy to earn. But still, they required four years of commitment to the program and training. If all someone is looking for is those knots, they're working awfully hard for scant return. The fourth knot I've earned is the District Award of Merit. In our district I will tell you flat-out that the DAM recipients put in a great deal of work. I would take a special kind of mental illness only be in it for the awards. I proudly wear all the knots I've earned as a Scout and a leader. I've written before about the boys who ask about the patches and give me an opportunity to pitch some part of the program. None of us truely know the motivations of the others. No question that my number one motivation is to make sure that my own two sons have a good program to attend. I also have a deep sense of obligation to the leaders who provided a great Scouting program for me. And yes, I enjoy earning the awards as an adult just as much as I enjoyed earning ranks and merit badges as a Scout. Don't like the look of all the fruit salad? Great! Don't wear them. But if someone else is proud to wear theirs, please keep you condecention to youself.

This is getting confusing, so let me clarify: Wolf and Bear have different rules. As a Wolf, to complete Achievement 1 you must do 1a through 1e, and one more of the remaining six requirements (1f thru 1k). If you complete all six of the remaining requirments, one of them counts toward completing the Achivement and the other five count as electives. That is not true for Bears. Achievements for Bears are grouped by God, Country, Family and Self. Take Country, for example. You must complete three of five Achievements (numbers 3 thru 8). Say you complete numbers 3, 4 and 5. Out of the 10 requirements under number 3 you only have to do three of them. If you do extra, they DO NOT count as electives. However, if you complete any of the requirement for Achivements 6 or 7, they CAN be counted as electives. This is better explained on page 286 of the Bear book.

1. Right 2. Right 3. No