Twocubdad

Can't or Won't organize outings are two different things. Both, however, are failures of the adults. If they won't do it and would perfer to stay home and play on the computer, the adults need to step in and provide more direction. Youth leadership is one of eight methods. I'm not going to sit back have let the failure of the troop leaders crash the entire troop program. Yadda, yadda, I know we're supposed to let the boys learn from their failures, but this isn't a failure: they're doing what they wanted, playing video all weekend. And how much learning is going on among the rank-and-file patrol members if the outing is cancelled do to inaction by the PLC? The adult leaders need to be enforcing the program. The Scouts get to decide where we are going camping, but the adults decide THAT we are going camping. It is a standing order in our troop that we go camping the first weekend of every month. November is the Webelos campout, July is summer camp and August is Troop JLT. Within that frame work, GO! The Scouts figure out the rest. If the boys CAN'T organize an outing, that is an adult failure too. My new mantra is that Scouts fail when the don't use the training and advice they've been given by he adults. Adults fail when they don't give the Scouts those tools. Beav asked for specifics. Here's some of the stuff we do. Forms - lots of forms. We have a worksheet for just about everything. The troop meeting plan, PLC meeting plan, campout planner and campfire planner are literally out of the book. We also have a menu planning form with one column for the menu, another column exploding that into a grocery list, and a check-list across the bottom of the cooking gear needed. Patrol menu plans must be completed and checked by an ASM before campouts. We also have stuff like blank duty rosters and tent mate signup sheets the patrols can use if they want. We've recently added a patrol outing worksheet. Our troop never had a tradition of patrols operating on their own, only within the troop structure. Last year we started declaring a troop meeting or even a whole weekend campout to be by patrols. The first time we did it was a disaster. The worksheet is pretty basic who, what, where stuff, but also includes some BSA-specific stuff like asking if the outing requires special BSA certification or training, i.e. Safe Swim or Safety Afloat. The key to this is that we train on this at TJLT. At JLT the guys work through planning a patrol activity using the sheet. It's not busy work, they will execute the plan later in the year. The menu planner isn't busy work either. It's set up to help the scouts meet the first class cooking requirements. We go through the sheets when we sign-off on the requirements. Yes, the boys' first reaction to all this is "MORE HOMEWORK?" Anything involving paper (well, I can think of one exception) is automatically related to school. It takes training and more than a couple tries before the scouts realize that using the forms makes planning easier. It's cool when you see a younger Scout scribbling a menu on a scrap of paper towel and the patrol leader says, "No, no, you need to go get the menu sheet." EUREKA! We do other very specific training at JLT. For communications, we have the boys take the patrol activity plan they just made and pretend to call their patrol members with the info. They literally make the phone call (to an adult in another room) and everyone listens in on the speaker phone. The adult answering the phone alternately pretends to be the Scout, his mother, his 8-year-old sister or the answering machine. The Scouts have to adapt their message to each situation. Follow-thru is a nut I haven't cracked. I'm coming to the conclusion that the part of the brain that processes that doesn't develop until sometime after age 18. I try to tell the boys, especially the SPL, he needs to make a habit of every Sunday night calling all the guys responsible for program elements at the next meeting. Most are adamant that if they made an assignment at the PLC, that should be enough and shouldn't have to follow through. Maybe we're doing too good a job of teaching delegation.

Interestingly, my boys call me Mr. ________ when they are trying to get my attention. They learned long time ago that yelling "Dad" in a room full of Scout leaders will get everyone's attention but me.

In that case, the Scout would go to any regularly registered counselor for the badge to finish up. I tell you the thing that bugs me at our camp is the policy (habit?) of the camp counselors to have the Scout ask me to verify things I have know knowledge of. Example: one of my Scouts taking Sports MB came to me at camp this year and asked me to write a note to his counselor verifying that he had played on two different sports leagues. Turns out one of the football teams the boy wanted to count was several years earlier and prior to the boy becoming a Scout. I wrote a note saying just that. To my chagrin, the counselor accepted the requirement as complete. I don't mind sign sending notes for stuff I know about (like nights camping) but this bothers me. I think in the future we're going to let the Scout know that things like this must be approved prior to camp where we have the opportunity to think it through a little better.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

This is exactly the situation I found myself in six years ago. My older son chose our current troop because he thought the other troop was run by the adults, which was true. Problem was, the troop he joined was just as you described. I call it Boy-Led-Into-The-Ground. The Senior Patrol Leader was a really great kid, but he was essentially little more than emcee for troop meetings. Meetings began by deciding between Dodge Ball or British Bulldog for the evening's progra. Many campouts were cancelled, usually due to lack of adults, but often because we would get to the week of the campout and no one had made any plans what so ever. Advancement was no problem as one lady was counselor for all 12 Eagle-required merit badges. She met with the Scouts during troop meetings for merit badge classes. In my first 18 months with the troop, the Patrol Leader Council met once that I remember, but maybe twice. We were neither Scout-led nor adult-led. Our problems was there was a leadership vacuum and no real Scout program. Boys don't come out of the womb knowing how to lead a Boy Scout troop. They must be taught. In an ideal situation, the older Scouts teach the younger Scouts how to do things. But more often, especially in a turnabout situation, the adults must do the teaching. The advice to observe and study the troop is sound. Is the troop really youth-led now, or is that just an excuse for the adults to do nothing? Why, specifically, are the boys failing? Would some simple planning and management techniques -- like using the troop meeting and campout planning worksheets -- solve the problem? Or are the problems deeper? If failure has become a habit, have the Scouts given up trying? That's a tougher turn-around. Are the adult leaders ready for a change and behind you, or do they think everything is fine and are looking for someone to maintain the status quo? . Your number one job between now and March is to develop a vision for what you want the troop to be. What do you want the troop to be known for? A heavy emphasis on nights camping? High adventure and backpacking or more traditional Scoutcraft/pioneer camping? Maybe a greater emphasis on community service than camping? One thing I observed about our troop prior to my becoming SM was it seemed every campout was the first time we had ever been camping. No systems, no routine, no standing assignments. Everyone just milled about until one of the adults started shouting instructions and/or doing the work himself. My vision for the troop was to be able to go on a campout as a well-oiled machines whith the Scouts all knowing what to do and getting it done with little effort. To do that I knew we needed to camp more. Looking back on it, what I really wanted was a Scout-led troop -- one where the older Scouts were involved and had the competence to run things without the adults being involved. (The noise you're hearing is a big "DUH" from the rest of the crowd.) That's not going to happen overnight. Now, six years in the troop and four as SM, I'm just now seeing a troop which operates that way. What I know now is a big part of that is maturity and experience on the part of the youth leaders. I think it is rare for young Scouts to truely be effective leader of their peers. Not only do you have to grow the leaders, but the rest of the troop needs to learn to be good followers. The Scouts need to enough experience to understand that following the leader makes life easier. When new Scouts first join a troop, their life experience is that might makes right. Everyone who has ever been in charge them has always been at least 20 years older, a two feet tall and has the ability to punish them if they don't follow instruction. Other kids who try to take charge are just "bossy" and not seen as a leader. My observation is that it is very difficult for a boy to learn to follow the leadership of a peer. All of which takes time on a generational scale. I am just now getting through my first generation with the troop. The is only one Scout who was in the troop when I joined and he is three months from 18. The boys from my old Cub den now earn or almost earned Eagle and moving into their "elder statesman" status in the troop. Tonight is SPL/PL election. The boys who will be leading the troop starting tonight crossed over after I took the troop and they have never had a SM other than me. While I have begun to see cycles and pattern from year to year, something new comes along every day. Hopefully, in another six or eight years I'll get it figured out!

Your troop sounds a lot like ours, except for the COR thing. As a general proposition, we go camping the first weekend of every month. We don't put any constraints on what the boys do, to the displeasure of some of our adults. They start with a clean slate when trying to decide what campouts they want to go on. I think it is reasonable that the adults provide some framework for the boys to build their activities around. Afterall, that what the overall Scout program is. We require the Scouts to have an outdoor program. We require (at various levels) uniforms. We require service to be part of the program. There is a structure to the Scouting program which makes it Scouting. The things you list are reasonable extensions of that program. To me, the real youth-leadership takes place within that framework of program. It's difficult to put overarching definitions or standards to the what consititues youth leadership, because it changes everytime new leaders are elected. Part of our job to figure out what the Scouts need to be successful and provide those resources. I've had SPLs with learning disabilities and I've had one apply to the Naval Academy. Someone please give me a definition of Boy led that covers both. I've been thinking about a kernel I got off another thread (and I'm sorry for not giving proper credit). When Scouts fail, it should be because they failed to follow the program, training and guidance they were given. If they were never given those tools, the failure is that of the adults. There should be room for controlled failure, but the emphasis should be on control, not failure. Safety, obviously, is a factor. But while a failure may be a learning experience for the youth leaders, we also need to make sure it doesn't mean the troop is delivering a poor experience to the younger scouts.

I think there are enough pluses and minuses that you can justify doing what you want. Peronally, I would feel like I owe it to the other pack to give them a head's up. If that's what you want to do I would suggest that you not discuss the situation with the other leaders or even the DE. Doing so could be considered slander. I would suggest providing a copy of the arrest report to the other unit leaders and your Scout Executive. Arrest records are public records so there's much less liability on you part. If you have a attorney who will answer a quick question for you, I'd run it by him or her. No I'm not an attorney, but if I'm paranoid, it's only because I've been down that trail

I found out that our pack was playing this game at crossover when one of my soon-to-be-Boy Scouts turns in an application listing his age as 9 (seems like his birthday would have been over the summer) and in the fourth grade. Sorry, no way, no how can I register that kid as a Boy Scout. Turns out his parents decided it would be easier on them if he were in the same den as his older brother. Both boys went through Webelos, both earning Arrow of Light, but until the kid turned 10, there my hands were tied. Supposedly, the younger brother agreed to join one of the Web.I dens and repeat the year. The older showed up for a few meetings, but never joined the troop. What we heard was that the parents didn't didn't have time for boys in different units, the both brothers will join the troop next year. Sure. (And yes, we went through all the stuff we could trying to accommodate the family, so don't write. This is the short version of the story.) The point is, the cub leaders did both these boys a great disservice by pushing the younger brother through. I know the older brother has dropped, and while I haven't heard for sure, I seriously doubt the younger brother is really hanging around to earn his AoL a second time.

Exellent observation, E. After last year's campout with the Webelos, the feed back I got from the Cubmaster was that, while the parents were generally very impressed with the troop program, some were concerned that some of language being used by the Scouts was inappropriate. So I asked my SPL if he had heard anything on the campout which was beyond the pale. "Oh, yeah," he says. "A couple of those Webelos have a real mouth on them. I learned a couple of new words myself." Again, trying to manage expectations, my message to new parents is "welcome to middle school." Crossing over into the troop in March of the 5th grade, new Scouts and their parents get a very mild sneak preview of what everyone else will get when they move up to middle school in the fall. You think you hear rough language on a Scout campout? Hold on to your shorts, it's going to be a bumpy ride. Our kids are Scouts, not Saints. Living the Scout Oath and Law is a goal, not a prerequisite.

Yeah, frequently the highway is the best option. If you have a parent like this who just shows up in the middle of a typically chaotic troop meeting, it's a tough sell. They see all hell breaking loose and it's hard to get them to see the organization. Normally, I try to manage the expectations of parents by explaining what's going on before they come to troop meetings. We have a couple opportunities to meet with the parents before first troop meeting. Our biggest and best opportunity is on our campout with the Webelos in November prior to crossover in March. We send all the Scouts off on a hike around camp and do our major orientation with the parents then. For one, the chaos on a campout doesn't seem so bad since we're in the woods. But more significantly, the Scouts are typically well prepared and have planned the demonstrations they are doing with the Webelos. The parents are seeing the finished product at the campout. They didn't see the sausage being made at the troop meetings prior to the campout. In fact, they tend to come away impressed with the job the junior leaders are doing. The way I explain it to the adults is Scouts learn leadership the same way they learn piano or hitting a baseball -- practice. The SPL and PLs leading the group are practicing leadership, as are the troop instructors and guides who are teaching the younger guys. Yes, it's messy, but it is just as important for the older Scouts to learn the leadership skills as it is for the younger guys to learn basic Scoutcraft. Controlled failure is part of the process. We'll make sure the older guys learn from a bad meeting the same way the younger guys will learn from a burned dinner. Be sure to make the point that the adults aren't there just occupying space, but are watching to make sure the controlled failure of the older Scouts doesn't have too much of an adverse consequence for the younger guys -- the same way we make sure the controlled failure of the younger guys learning to cook doesn't result in food poisioning. Even with advanced warning, over the years I've had a couple parent's who just couldn't handle it. One was a fellow who had been a great DL all through Cubs. As a general rule, this guy was wrapped around the axle pretty tightly. He ran a very tight ship in the den. The boys were well prepared for the troop, but the DL just couldn't make the transistion. I think he was rather burned out, too. He made a handful of meetings and one campout before he quit showing up. Unfortunately, his son followed about a year later.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

My old Scoutmaster was, and still is, Mr. The adults in our troop are still Mr.

I'm not over weight, I'm under height. Doing some extrapolation from the height/weight chart, I need to grow about 14 inches taller. That's probably almost as likely as loosing the weight. So who among us has the cajones to write a letter to the editor asking which of the key three posed for the photo on the next page?

Bleeeeeeeth.

I think you did the right thing. What BS post is correct, but as Scoutldr says, many MBC serve a particular troop. They may be registered to the district, but around here (and from what I read, most places) they are attached to one troop. If the old SM's intention was to register with the district, he should go through the district advancement chairman. Let sleeping dogs lay -- especially the ones that bite.

I tend to agree with you, Sherm, but I think we have it within our ability now to guide Scouts into increasingly more challenging and leadership-based positions as they advance. I've posted on a number of threads that there are ways for the adult leaders to subtly guide Scouts onto higher standards. This is another one of those situations. I'm not advocating that we blatantly add to the requirements, as one of my neighboring troops does, and require that a Scout serve as SPL in order to earn Eagle. Not only is that against advancement policy, but it's ham-fisted and unnecessary. I have a new Life Scout in the troop who has always been small for his age and rather introverted. His first couple years in the troop he had a lot of problems working with the other guys because he just wouldn't engage. He tended to wander off or hang back, especially when there were group activities at hand, like cooking, cleaning or packing out gear. The other guys read that as lazy and gave him a hard time which only compounded the problems. All that changed when I convinced the kid to serve as a Den Chief. To say he thrived is an understatement. He is the first in the troop to earn the National Den Chief Award. The confidence he gained as DC allowed him to also serve as Troop Guide. Clearly, given his size and introverted nature, working with younger Scouts is a big plus for him. So when we sat down for his Life Scoutmaster conference a few months back, I asked him what leadership positions he would like to take on for Eagle. Of course he wants to continue at Den Chief and Troop Guide. I told him he has done a great job at those positions and has them down pat, which is why I think it's time for him to step up and look at taking on more of a troop level position like ASPL and eventually SPL. He was visibly terror-stricken. I explained to him that he's not longer the smallest, most shy kid in the troop. By the time he makes Eagle, probably half of the boys in the troop will have had him as either Troop Guide of Den Chief. They don't see him as "Little Joey" like the older guys did, they see him as one of the older leaders in the troop. He needs to step into that role. Well, I haven't closed the deal, but I have strongly planted the seed. I don't know if he will ever be SPL, but I think he will definitely take it up a notch. Maybe he can become ASPL incharge of Den Chief and Troop Guides. Who knows. The point of that long story is that we have the opportunity to guide our Scouts into something beyond three terms as Librarian. In my mind, I don't want to see an Eagle application for a Scout whose leadership positions were Librarian, Historian and Bugler. I won't make that an added requirement or troop policy, but very clearly I will guide Scouts to more leadership-based positions for Eagle.

I'd count it too. But here's another way of looking at it. If a Scout can't get enough service hours for Second Class, Star and Life by participating in troop service projects, I'd question what's going on with the troop program. Our guys can easily pick up all the time they need through the troop.

Hmmmm.... What do you think the chance is that they just grabbed the wrong line off the receipt and in error wrote the check for the wrong amount. When you asked about it, they didn't want to go to the trouble of cutting you another check, so you got a smart aleck answer instead. Give a choice between incompetence and conspiracy, far, far more things can be explained by incompetence. But either way, it ain't right and I would persue it.

My sons' school requires 40 hours per year of communtiy service to advance to the next grade and as a graduation requirement for Seniors. Based on the flurry of emails during the last week or so of school, there were a number of kids who didn't consider it a "real" requirement and there was apparently some scrambling to get it done. Last year my older son did a "reverse dip" and counted his Eagle project for his service hours at school. The school certainly didn't have problem with that. Generally, I don't have a problem with Scouts double dipping. Call it appropriate use of resources. If a Scout has done 20 or 40 hours of service for school, I'd say he has adequately covered the six hours for Star or Life. Double-dipping seems to be a fairly well engrained idea. Scouts playing on school teams may count team workouts for Personal Fitness (provided they go the extra step of tracking their workouts and doing the interim tests.) Using the school DARE program or something similar is specifically listed in the second class requirement. One thing I require of my Star Scouts working on the Life service requirement is to give me a written proposal for their Life service project. No big write-up, one paragraph is fine. Going into the project, I want them to try to do the entire six hours on one project. If they come up short, they can fill out the six hours with something else. My purpose is to get the Scouts to give some real thought to the projectand do something which is meaningful and memorable. Otherwise what I get are Scouts who after-the-fact just stitch together stuff they've done without really thinking about -- "My church group helped at the homeless shelter for three hours and, uh, I did Scouting for Food for two hours, and uh, uh, uh, I cleaned the erasers for my teacher and, uh, uh, uh,." That's not service, that's a creative writing project.

Yeah, that's been around awhile. The first time we saw it, it came on and they were just getting through the introductions when my older son looked at me and said, "man, if your Scout troop is on "I Shouldn't Be Alive" it can't be good."

I would say that if the Scout doesn't receive some direct or indirect benefit from the service and it service doesn't fulfill some obligation the Scout has, then I would allow it. Work days at summer camp would be out because the Scout will benefit when he attends camp later in the year. Helping with an OA Ordeal would be out since that is an obligation of being in the OA. On the other hand, I would allow service for working at Cub Scout Day Camp, unless he is doing so as part of his obligation as a Den Chief.

I hadn't thought about it (because I don't have a new shirt) but even with the old shirts, unless you keep the pocket buttoned you're likely to lose the patch. With the new shirts it's not possible to button the button. How about this: Take one of the tiny rubber bands kid use on their braces (should be readily available among a group of teenagers); slip it over the patch loop and slide it down to where the loop is attached to the patch; button the patch to the shirt button; then slide the rubber band up under the button, cinching the loop closed around th button. No idea if this will work, but my thought was to somehow cinch the loop closed around the button. Maybe someone has a better idea that the rubber bands.

OH M GOSH! Sound, accurate advice from someone who is an actual professional in the field. Has that ever happend here before? Moderators, aren't you supposed to do something about this?

Prior to my becoming SM and for the first year or 18 months, this sort of Prodigal Life Scout was the norm in our troop. Some of the Scouts returning from the wilderness had left prior to my joining the troop so I couldn't pick some of them out of a lineup. Still, as SM, I had to sign the Eagle app. I relied heavily on the leaders who were around when the boys were active. My standard was to ask if they had ever "walked the walk." In other words, prior to becoming less active, had they met the letter and spirit of the requirements. In other words, if you could pinpoint a day they became inactive, would the troop leaders have signed their Eagle app then (assuming the other, less subjective requirements had been met). In every case but one, they had. The one exception was a Scout who became inactive within a month of earning Life and did not meet the standard. I declined to approve his Eagle app and was ultimately upheld on appeal. Based on what we know here, it sounds to me like this kid did "walk the walk" and I would be glad to have him back to finish his project. Of course I would push/encourage/threaten him to actively participate in troop life while he finishes things. I can't argue with da Beav's comments that these things are within the normal variations of the various troop's programs and the vision/standards each troop sets for itself.

Guide to Safe Scouting, page 48: "The taking of prescription medication is the responsibility of the individual taking the medication and/or that individual's parent or guardian. A scout leader, after obtainging all he necessary information, can agree to accept responsibility of making sure a Scout takes the necessary medication at the appropriate time, but BSA does not mandate nor necessarily encourage the Scout leader to do so. Also, if your state laws are more limiting, they must be followed." In our troop, per the above policy we choose not to get involved with a Scout's medications. Early on in the Webelos transistion process we let parents and new Scouts know that they will be responsible for medications, not the troop. Usually, that means before summer camp the parents need to teach their sons to be responsible for taking their medications on time. Yes, some of the parents wig out. But do they plan to go to college with their son to make sure he takes his medicine? Assuming no, that means at some time he is going to have to learn to be responsible for himself. Why not now? Like everything else in Scouting, it's not a totally black and white issue. The adults leaders know what meds are being taken and when and will informally ask the Scouts if they've taken them. We do NOT chase a kid around the campsite with a pill bottle. Thinking about it, this is the same approach we take to showers, changing underwear and brushing teeth. We may ask/remind, but it's up to each Scout to be responsible for themselves. At summer camp we are required by the camp for an adult to keep the meds in a locked tackle box in their tent. The scouts are still responsible for coming to the adult with the meds and getting their prescriptions as needed. On troop campouts the Scouts take full responsibility. So far this system has worked just fine for us (other than causing some heartburn for a few of the parents). And we do have two boys with serious health problems which require regular medications. As you may expect, these boys take their medications very seriously and are quite diligent about taking them on time. If they can do it anyone can. Spit, my advice to you would be to cite BSA policy and decline to be responsible for the medications, regardless of what the rest of the troop wants to do. Take a copy of the Guide to Safe Scouting to your committee meeting. If others want to be responsible, they should do so. But they need to commit to going to camp for a week, too. I'll also second the suggestion to separate medication from behavioral issues. Even if here is a 1:1 correlation between the two, the Scouts need to behave like Scouts, on or off medication.

That's somewhat of a false premise. Part of the purpose of the SMC is to confirm whether or not the Scout has completed the rest of the requirements. Things happen. I've had Scouts come to conferences without having things signed off. I've had Scouts who had things improperly signed off. (And no, if I know a Scout didn't complete something properly, I'm not going to turn a blind eye just because he has it signed in the book.) In these situations I've signed off that the Scout completed the conference, but obviously told him he has to complete the other requirements before I recommend him for a Board of Review. In that situation it's important to let your advancement chairman know what's up. One of the reasons many troops use the SMC to sign off on participation, positions of responsibility and Scout spirit is because those are much more subjective and lend themselves to more conversation. If there is any question about the completion of one of those requirements, the conference is the time to discuss it (subject to the above notes that it shouldn't be the first the Scout hears of it.) On another point, I'll disagree a bit with the notes about not passing a Scout along to let the Board of Review turn him down. I've done that before in certain circumstances. But it's done in very close consultation with the Board of Review. I wouldn't just dump an unqualified kid on the board and hope they turn him down. Sometimes when I'm having problems with a boy, I've talked with him about an issue until he's tired of hearing from me. I've passed the Scout along to the Board of Review just so he hears the message from the board. I've also had Scouts pull some disciplinary boner after the conference, but before the board. I'll add that the Scoutmaster needs to have a close working relationship with the advancement chairman and the folks sitting the boards. If I don't call him first, my AC always ask me "is there anything I need to know about this one?" We've got Scouts with learning disabilities and the board needs to know what to expect from these boys. Perhaps a Scout has an opportunity to do something and needs encouragement. Maybe a boy is Patrol Leader and having issues with another Scout. All this makes good fodder for a board of review.

Yeah, I don't like making general policies for specific situations. And I sure as heck wouldn't be changing the way the troop does things to accommodate this one family's rude behavior. Here's another thought: At the boy's next Scoutmaster Conference or Board of Review, just before you get to the part where you sign off on the boy's advancement, everyone get up, announce that since all the fun stuff is over you're leaving early, then walk out. Go home and wait for the phone to ring.