blw2

Love it! After our 2nd to the last campout, which was a WEBELOS AKeala event....I vowed never again. We were hosted by the troop, and the troop had decided that adults would just eat form the patrols' meals.... except for dinner which was supposed to be in the dining hall, but a last minute change had them bringing tin soldiers already folded and prepared by camp staff. No seasoning, just plain hamburger, potatoes and I think carrots. al different sizes, some not folded well what a nightmare.... so I plan on always bringing my own stash, or backup stuff at least. In your example, i would need to make sure I have butter and flour, if I knew the group planned on burger tim soldiers.... I can always use sugar that I keep packed for coffee, in place of the brown sugar.... My following camping trip at that camp was for a cubscout council event. Meals provided in the dining hall..... but after that tin soldier nightmare, I threw a couple freeze dried meals into my pack as a backup, along with my backpacking stove that I bring anyway for emergency coffee..... thankfully I didn't need either....

just listening to a podcast at the moment, that made me think of this thread spin off http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-259-socratic-scouting/

I have oft thought we should have a binder (theoretical at least) of notes, to encourage DL's to document what they have done, what works, what doesn't work, etc.... Not a rehash of the requirements and such. that is already printed... but what I imagine is local notes..... places to take a hike or a required bike ride for example It's one of the things I had hoped to start, but due to lack of help I just haven't had time. I doubt if I'd get most of our folks to participate anyway... but it has always struck me as kinda dumb that we set up to re-invent the wheel over and over again... Like you said, it doesn't help new leaders for sure.... I think an interesting side note to such a collection of notes would be the history. It would be interesting to me to look back to see who was doing this job 5 years or 10 years ago.... what kinds of things they did, etc.... It would be interesting to see how things change over time too. But on the other hand, with the www, pinterest, and the like, is this sort of thing really needed anymore??? Taking this back to the original topic, an indirect result of having more meetings would be more opportunity for hands on and fun with the requirements, as opposed to trying to blast through them..... and having such a notebook or history would be helpful to new leaders taht had the energy to read it.

nice.... I think I hear what you're not saying Stosh! I think I'll have to try this one the next time I break out the oven

Oh yes, so true..... but unfortunately it is. Many times it's almost driven by the program.... the DL or someone else has to "explain" something often, it's just an inherent fault in us adults.... we read that the requirement is "demonstrate how..." and so we demonstrate how. this second point I try to keep up front in my mind, and I try to remind or hint to other leaders when I see it happening. but more often than not it almost has to be that way just because of lack of time, lack of resources, etc...

sure sounds like you ran an active den. I think that's a good thing and a nice target for all den leaders to shoot for. In our pack, the DL's aren't quite as active as that but what I see is the big miss is that on top of den meetings you ran an outing too. Well that and putting more of the achievement off to be done at home. The boys have gotten most of the way along through several of the required pins but there always seems to be at least something left for homework. Your story about the boy not knowing what readyman was makes me think of a recent conversation I had with a friend, who just finished up his roles as DL for a 2nd year WEB den in another pack.... I was telling him how I have have been reviewing my son's book myself, so I know what he needs to do.... so as dad, I have been steering him to complete things and he doesn't even know it... until I send him for his book and show him that he just finished Handyman, or whatever... BUT my friend had the opinion that, in theory at least, it should be the boys reading the book and driving the bus. I don't know that I totally disagree with him but it was cool to see my son just having and fun and learning, not even knowing that he'll be getting a pin for it.

oh, one more counter thought to frequent meetings.... and it points to a problem cub scouts is full of too much repetition and boredom anyway. I can imagine that 3-4 den meetings every month without fail + den outings + pack meetings + pack outings may very like tip that repetition to an extreme.... So much in cubs is demonstration anyway Take fire building as an example. My son is finishing up his 1st year webelos year.... over the last two years (Bear and WEB 1) he has been shown and told how to build a fire at least 4 or 5 times formally, by scouts or scoutmasters. at two WEBELOS Akela Weekends (council camp) where a SM taught a really good lecture class at at least two other council camps where scouts showed the cubs how and at the den meeting to work on his outdoorsman pin, where scouts visiting from our troop showed them how never was it hands on.... except for the many times he has done it with me on our own personal camping trips.... So by the time he's being presented the lecture in his first year in the troop, you might understand why he'll be yawning..... yeah yeah, i know... teepee..... log cabin.... fuel/oxygen/heat..... yeah yeah, I got it....

interesting. My son could be on track with that, except in the current program it's not possible. One of the AOL requirements is "be active 6 months after completing 4th grade", or some such thing.... and from what I understand the new program will be even more focused on 5th grade But my son didn't do it in den meetings. Not saying I like it, but the way our pack rolls I don't think any boy makes rank solely in den meetings.... occasionally an achievement or web pin will be finished, but the norm is to do some or even most of the requirements.... but not all in the meeting.

yep, no doubt about it... less than 2 den meetings per month is a bad thing from my perspective. 2 per month is less than ideal for sure. but having a meeting every week is a burden on parents. In my opinion, 1 den mtg per week would be good, but as a parent I would plan on missing some..... especially the week of the pack meeting Someone mentioned sports.... now that is a burden... at least one practice a week, maybe more + game day But the difference is that is usually for a shorter period, maybe 6 weeks or something. One reason we don't push our kids into sports is that we both work and it's impossible for us to make it happen.

a favorite is honestly hard for me to come up with grilled steak maybe.... but one thing is for sure.... foil packet Tin Soldiers with hamburger aint it for me. They are very popular it seems, but not my idea of good on any level. I've been thinking of trying them with better ingredients, such as steak, asparagus, broccoli, squash, with butter and seasonings.... with insulating layers of cabbage on each side to reduce burning.... but so far have not tried it. Besides the usual bland ingredients, my other reasons for dislike are that it is very hard to get them sealed, and we are always dealing with at least a few that have either torn or pulled open.... or folks use cheap/thin foil..... &/or they burn horribly and stick.

With that being said I think sometimes it makes sense to reduce meeting frequency. If for example you just don't have manpower to share the load..... but it's a catch 22 I know of at least one pack that has some sort of combined meeting where the dens all meet the same night, then they come together for a pack gathering.... or maybe it;'s the other way around with pack first....

We try to have 1 pack meeting per month, on a Friday and encourage the dens to meet the other 3 weeks in the month But it's up to the DL to work out and coordinate with the parents in the den re. day, time, etc.... It's really more complicated when you dig into the weeds though.... looking at any given month, there are other variable to consider pack camping events to work around school calendar and events to work around holidays room availability conflicts at the church etc.... so some of the months it really gets difficult to have any meetings. Our reality has been that the DL's meet less frequently than our target of 3 per month some months my son's DL meets 3 weeks but really shoots for 2 meetings per month which sometimes results in 1 meeting in a month due to last minute schedule conflicts, weather cancellations for outdoor meetings, etc... My other DL's I suspect average closer to the 1 meeting per month number I've had a few discussions with my son's DL, who happens to also be a good friend.... about this very topic. As a parent, i agree with his target of 2 den meetings per month + the 1 pack meeting, results in 1 week a month that isn't tied up with scouts..... assuming there's not a camp or event in that 4th week. But I understand that more frequent meetings serve to keep folks engaged and with more meetings, if a boy misses one or two it's a low percentage that he's missed I see it in our less engaged dens that meet more sporadically..... head counts are dropping and folks are not as engaged.

well I sure wouldn't go plagiarizing the whole speech word for word.......... I just meant some of the concepts. Changing the world, starting with making your bed as the 1st job of the day.... and the little guys are smarter than you might think. They'd understand as much as most younger scouts would.... good on you Lecastor. That speech was good inspiration, Sounds like you sent him off well.

thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed it. I'm curious how you used it though..... I can't imagine that you repeated the whole thing. Can you elaborate? You have my wheels turning for my last Cubmaster's minute next month.....before summer break

packsaddle said it, but I'll repeat.... Using a debit card does nOT give you the same protections as a credit card

I was thinking about this statement.... This past fall, we had our Field Director doing it in place of our vacant DE. He was actually a very good guy and even came out and helped with our sign-up night after my leader that was chairing the event quit the day before.... I would say that he did an excellent job of recruiting, EXCEPT he mislead them a bit. Not purposefully I don't think though.... An informal survey of our new kids mostly were lassoed in with promises of camping on the local pro ballfield and watching a movie on the jumbotron..... and to a lessor degree BB shooting. Once they found out that these are limited council run events, and not the norm, we had a high drop rate this year....

how many meetings do you hold, that seem like too much? This has been a side discussion I have been having with a DL lately, who generally does 2 den mtgs per month. Some months with pack camping &/or holiday conflicts may only have 1 den mtg.... It strikes me that 3 den mtgs + 1 pack meeting makes a mtg every week but would likely be good to keep them engaged. Not so big a deal if one is missed, etc... BUT he feels that 1-2 den mtgs is about right. Actually I agree with him from the perspective of a parent, but not as CM....

Not that it may be all that productive, but I'll bet your pack could put a stop to it if you really wanted to. It might take printing up your own flyers instead of using theirs.... or maybe even telling them to not bother coming to your school, that you will do it.... Just don't provide support for it or a leader

My son in 3rd grade last year had significantly more homework than I did in High School..... I don't disagree with your point (re. maturity level), BUT I would say that kids even 3rd-4th grade could benefit from good time management training.... especially in this day and age with so many controlled activities..... school, sports, band, scouts.... although it's not used for anything more than a homework agenda, they issue what amounts to a daytimer calendar to elementary school kids at our school!

Interesting thread If I were in your shoes, I would drive to just say no to the Lions council can push, but that can't make you do it. What are they gonna do, cut your pay? Fire you? i agree with this point. I'm finding it hard enough to get parents to volunteer the first time for one meeting. and there is a real conflict between too many meetings, den or pack (tough for a parent to get to them) and not enough meetings (easy to lose energy) I understand you point though about splitting so that the pack isn't dumbed down, and think it's a good one, but I predict more problems than not.... This thread reminds me of something I have posted before, and thought of many times.... The only way I see good from the Tiger program, and I suppose this would extend to Lions, or to Wolf if we went back to a 2nd grade start.... but I think the 1st year would work much better if a pack were to have a perpetual leader for that entry level den. I always picture a retired school teacher that loves kids and just want to be involved, even if her own kid or grandkid isn't involved. This grandmotherly lady would be able to help them to hit the ground running with a fun program She already knows the drill. Knows the players. Grounds them into the program. she would be able to eliminate the stress on the parents of the push to recruit one of them as leader right away. Let them ease into it.... and help to select and groom future leaders

I don't think you should actually spend more money.... except to bring the balance down to where it should be. Hopefully the bulk of that extra money.... & I'm only assuming it's extra because we don't spend that much.... but assuming the extra came from fundraising this year.... what i would suggest is this...spend it on the boys, "they" earned it. Using my off the cuff number of $3,000 as your target, based on my pack's experience (we liked to end each year with $3k in the bank as a comfortable break-even number). Your break-even would be different.... so let's say you need $3,000 to get you through the summer and to cover the expenses kicking up in the fall to pay for the popcorn show n sell inventory, books for the scouts, neckers if you provide them, deposits that will be needed for the fall trip, or whatever.... So you have $2k EXTRA I'd suggest spending that activities or presenters at pack meetings, &/or have an end of the year party with the money, or take them on a trip or outing... a museum, a tour boat ride, etc..... I'm not suggesting to waste it, but rather let the boys have fun with it and maybe learn something. Then, re-evaluate. Maybe you could reduce dues a bit if you think fundraising will remain the same. or you could hold dues high and plan on a party every year.... or have a BIGGER B&G, etc.... IF I had more money this year as CM, i would have taken advantage of the many options such as our local science museum coming in to run an active science pack meeting (which carries a fee). I know of one pack that brings in a guest activity or speaker for every pack meeting, most of which cost.... You may very well find out though if you dig into it, that $5k is your pack's number.... it's what scouters that have come before you have determined as what you need to cover thing till next year....

yeah, fair enough point about the boy thing.... that's a BSA thing (I personally think that i MIGHT like the coed approach as the do in the UK better, anyway... but that's another thread) As I understand from my somewhat limited reading about Baden Powell, his plan was using concepts from his scouting manual, which was written for soldiers to teach outdoor methods, but BP found that it was being used back home by boys for fun in the woods.... So he was using some of these concepts as a 'method' to teach boys certain values so that they could grow to be good upstanding men and good citizens. As I understand it, It wasn't so much about teaching them to be expert outdoorsman even in the beginning. That was just the conduit for learning. Is that not right?

I met our unit commish once last year, right before he was retiring. I was manning a ministry fair table at our CO. He approached. Seemed like a nice fellow, offered to help. We had a nice general chat for a minute or two, he explained how he was retiring at the end of the month, or some such thing, but repeated his offer to help even after that if I needed anything... as he handed me a business card.... So I say, now that you mention it, I have been wondering about something..... and proceed to start to explain some situation or issue.... i don't even remember for sure what it was now.... it was funny. He almost cut me off interrupting as he turned away saying he had to go, or some place to be or something..... Figures.... I never did hear about any replacements for him.

Recently camped with our CO's troop for a WEB/Akela weekend. I was surprised to see some scouts that have only recently crossed over already in positions such as APL and PL. I thought it much more the norm for the older boys to be in those roles. I didn't really discuss with the troop leaders, just assuming it was because they have only recently grown out of a shrunken troop with only a few boys, to now a more healthy head count.... Your post makes me wonder about this as a "new normal" In theory at least, I think it much better for the younger boys to have a significant older boy to follow (assuming of course that older boy is a good scout per the scout law).... AND also good for that older boy too in helping the younger ones which would help him better understand the meaning of some of the points of the scout law.... A young boy leading a young boy... not so much..... make me wonder about the program a bit.

I often think of myself sort of an in-betweener.... at almost 49years old I have been exposed to many of the things your write about Stosh, but i can't say that I lived them. I'm a suburbs boy. My parents were both from poor farming families. Mom was born in a log cabin. Both clearly remember when they 1st got electricity and indoor plumbing. I have used outhouses, and have experienced farm living when visiting grandparents. My dad raised me hunting and fishing and boating and camping. I was free to roam the neighborhood with my friends. Mom knew generally where I was, but not really. I had many of the freedoms my parents did, but not all. Sadly, my kids know none of that freedom... with the exception of camping and boating. They do get some opportunity to roam the woods a bit, but not as freely as even i did.... But, back to the discussion of Eagle requirements.... and the discussion to focus on outdoors skills This thread makes me ask, is outdoor skills really the point of scouting? ultimately, what is Scouting's goal in teaching the boys? outdoor survival skills? leadership? citizenship? to tie knots? exposure to hobbies and career choices? character? Looking at the scout law and the scout oath, I see no mention of a good scout being required to be a good outdoorsman at all. Why is it that most folks think a good scout knows outdoor survival skills? I have to admit, the chance to get outdoors and practice or learn wilderness survival skills is what I enjoy about being a scouter... and it's what makes me want to encourage my son to do it.... It's a way for me to expose him to these things....