blw2

Hard to explain my question in a title.... Someone once told me that their pack had one of those established habits.... doing it because that's the way it always has been done.... Anyway, the habit was to reduce leader burn out and to share the load setting the expectation that every parent would be expected to volunteer in some fashion and that through the process of the program, folks would be groomed for jobs in the future..... For example usually a parent form the 1st year webelos den that takes on the cubmaster job. The thinking being - that this would be a parent that has been involved in the pack for a while now, so they are more comfortable with how things work, etc... - it's an established expectation that someone grooms into - they go into it knowing that it's a finite commitment and not something they will be stuck with - and this person would then be around for a few months in their son's 2nd web year to advise and support IF needed I believe it was that a Bear parent would take the Assistant CM job in grooming for the CM job Wondering if any of you have experience doing something like this.... or have thoughts about it? What are some logical ways to handle other positions in a similar fashion? (DL's, Committee Chair, and other roles) This came up in a recent discussion with my son's DL, who is getting a bit burned out. Anyway, he has been an advocate that we should have been setting early expectations that everyone is expected to help... and I have agreed....and so this idea came up, but i can't wrap my head around how one might handle the Den Leader position in a similar fashion.

It seems that the district folks were un-invited, but the others met, inviting some on the committee but not all....and I guess the old CM, who has quit twice before has now been invited back, bringing with him the support of a few "retired" leaders. but, at least for the CM, it's filled with someone in the same boat as me... a short timer 2nd year WEB parent.... soon to not have skin in the game and it looks like other roles will be filled by others with no skin in the game.... (I know Stosh, that in itself this isn't bad, but in this case it's short term motivation, doesn't seem so healthy for the pack to me) oh, And now we have filled positions that nobody new is going to see a need to fill It's probably for the best in a way though, because he brings support that I could never seem to garner because we just don't have the interest in the new group of parents.... but I feel it's a step backwards in another way because they are all so disconnected now, from the boys, and refuse to play along and follow any program but what they have always done..... I've told them, but since they only half listen....I doubt if any of them are seriously aware that there is a new Cub Scout program that just started.... and probably don't really care. They'll run it like it always was.... The good old boy network....

True enough @@packsaddle and Stosh, true enough.... I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to me except that I've put a lot into it and care about the pack. Stupid I know, but i guess I don't feel respected. I don't disagree with most of what they are doing, but it seems there's no good reason to not involve me and the rest of the committee in the discussion.

It's been a long week, & I feel like a deflated balloon. I've been flanked and undermined So after our poorly attended parent meeting where we discussed the possibility of drawing another deadline in the sand, and my staying through crossover next year.... I figured in the mean time, i would reach out again, individually to the parents in the younger dens that are the best candidates for the job.... making another recruiting attempt on my own and I started to prepare for the beginning of next year either way.... But my goal was to leave the position "formally" open as long as possible so that someone might feel the need to step into it knowing that I was there to support them. So I attend the round table last week, primarily for two reasons 1) to find out the dates for the sign-up night training... for the parent who expressed interest in helping with recruiting, and 2) to put a bug in the ear of our Field director/DE &/or the district commish about our problem I barely get in the lobby with the commissioner yells across the room.... "I'll be there at your meeting tomorrow night!".... "who, me?... we're not having any meeting?".... so he looks at me puzzled, and he pulls out his smartphone.... "Yes, tomorrow night..." and goes on to name our CC and one of the dads who has resigned from the pack committee some time ago to take a more active troop role.... interesting.... So I called the CC who was unaware that the commish was invited. Now he's ticked. & I'm put off that I'm getting end rounded and the CC is going along....

after reading @@SlowDerbyRacer ' s post, makes me wonder what the view is to the parents and boys..... to the "public" If the Cumbamster or Scoutmaster is all they see. And since the CM or SM are generally referred to as the unit "Leader" I'm guessing that to the "public view" that leader is the "buck stops here" guy.... then with the CC in reality that guy, you'd have this situation where they think that the CM/SM is either a great guy or a bonehead, depending on what the CC is.

well now actually I'll bet you'd see.... well in fact you do when you do a google search for unit versions of this that are already out there..... far more variations in bad English usage, improper punctuation, and the like.... when it's left to the masses to cobble together their own things at least if we were using one template, the odds are very much better at least for consistency But in reality, is the senior patrol leader the senior most patrol leader or is he the patrol leader of the senior patrol or... could he be the Patrol Leader's senior? What do I know? I'm an engineer.... Where's an English Major when you need one????

And I notice there really is no game or activity time. I guess skits and such could be inserted in the Den demonstration section.... which is what I have always encouraged for what we used to call "den time".... they would put on a skit or something, or demonstrate what they have been working on. I estimate that September script will finish out at no more than 30 to 40 minutes.... seems almost a little too short I guess though, it could be bolstered with a snack or a game while the adults stack chairs.....

looking at September's now. Yes, a huge improvement over the old..... looks like a format that is actually easy to follow and implement, and seems to have some fun ideas and elements. But I can see the older boys rolling eyes at some of it.... targets a bit too young of an audience at times.... and then the advancement ceremony, what's up with that??? So they think in September we're gonna have boys that earned every rank? OK, so we could in theory omit any that weren't earned.... but seriously? In September? we might have an odd boy that finished a rank after our last pack meeting in May. and we might have some WEBELOS that earned a pin or two.... or maybe an old belt loop or two... I could even imagine a pack might have a few boys that earned a few of the new adventure belt loops......but none of these things are even addressed in the script!!!

well yes, ok fine. You see.... there's always an angle that you don't see. good one!

sumping? no water?

yes indeed! See if you can sell it to BSA, like the scoutbook guy did with his code! I can see a lot of work went into that Taking the risk of derailing the thread with a rat trail...... One question @@Peter H.... I didn't read every word, but skimming through it I noticed something about a requirement that parents were not allowed to sign off on WEBELOS requirements. Is that a unit tradition thing? I must admit I read something similar to that a long time ago, and thought it the case.... but once my son progressed to WEBELOS, neither me or his DL could find it in the handbook.

My thinking is that clearly defined lines or roles would only serve to eliminate the posturing or "politics", in that the players don't have to wonder or posture or guess what they need to take charge of - you know your job - you know his job - he knows enough about your job to know that you will get that part done so he doesn't have to pick it up - and you know just enough about his job so that you know to not worry about those things.... I don't know, this is mostly theoretical from my perspective anyway. With no skin in the game, our cc, while having a good heart and wanting to serve, has been mostly hands off.... so I have worn many of the CC's and other committee member hats. and our COR is even less involved

ok, as part of the brainstorming discussion here... I might be persuaded to agree with this idea. True enough, the buck has to stop someplace.... but honestly I can say that in my time it has never really come to that firm of a disagreement.... although I can imagine that occasionally it might for some.... but sorta to my original point, it aint really clear. Almost as many perspectives here as the number of posters.... And that really shouldn't be I have to say, once I read everything I can find & mull it over through the rattling cogworks of my mind comparing with my experiences and observations my gut tells me the best logical answer is more as @@CalicoPenn described.... a horizontal line between them, each over their own department (or maybe better in Stosh speak, "Supporting their own areas") So that for questions of the boy program, it's the Cubmaster or Scoutmaster But for all other supporting business it's the CC and together they should work, not separately, not over, not under....

@@Stosh, I think you've pegged this one pretty good in tacking it to training. The info is there if you have the energy to look for it. I took the online training, did a lot of reading attended U of Scouting classes in person leader specific (well that was a flop, but I tried it) participated in this scouter.com round table etc.... But the average parent doesn't. Even the average active veteran leader doesn't even do this much. They think they know... but do they really? Most folks are too frightened but of the folks I find that have been reluctantly willing to help such as the Den Leaders I have recruited for our younger dens are very intimidated by the idea since they know NOT of what is required and IF they are courageous enough will step up and mostly wing it. Better training more frequently offered training easier to take training more consistent training would all help and I would add that better job definitions would help and program definitions would help (boy led & patrol method are a good example of something that is relatively simple has countless variations in practice) Short clear concise is needed with all of this

This showed up in my google now recommended reading today http://scoutingmagazine.org/2015/04/how-to-create-a-pack-handbook/ I have thought about doing something like this often.... but then I feel like it adds redundancy and it adds one more thing that folks won't read and it's one more job, that someone need to keep it updated. and since I was already wearing way too many hats, with nobody in a position I could delegate this to.... it has always been dropped It strikes me that 99% of this stuff is already published by BSA, and other places such as boyscouttrail, usscouts.org, etc.... anyway BUT it's not collected in one easy to read thing to give to new and old unit parents and boys Seems like this is something the BSA could do, with all the money saved in not sending out those membership cards .... I'm imagining them publishing a template, short, clear, concise outline bullet points or "ten commandments" The only things in it that really should need to be customizable are email/contact info, meeting time and place, etc... Rules, parent expectations, the way the unit operates, etc... really could be almost universal. sadly though, it seems no two units operate the same.... might argue that this is good, but i think mostly not so much The boy led patrol thing is a prime example of a simple and proven concept that gets mixed up, interpreted, and jumbled into countless variations. I figure if the BSA would publish a bullet point outline, such as... how the troop functions 10 commandments for parents etc.... Then it would be much easier for units to stay on track Leaders wouldn't have to feel like they need to reinvent the wheel every time & easier for new parents to jump in and get the concept I know it'll never happen, but just something rattling around in my head....

Seems like a bit of a grey area for many. I think for the most part we all seem to get along in the interest of helping each other to help the boys..... but it seems to open up a lot of potential for adult posturing non-sense In a recent thread, it seemed like the CC was mandating stuff to a leader, perhaps SM I just had a recent experience at the pack level with a bit of confusion between me and our CC... very minor in my case, but it got me to thinking about this whole hierarchy thing. I've seen and heard this as issues in other discussions, perhaps as side issues I've re-read the bsa "job descriptions". Sorta clear, sorta not so much.... They even have on their web site a tree for the pack, showing the CM under, or reporting to, the CC, and so on... but this is contradicted in other places & no such graphic for troops that I have seen, at least official and recent and I've given it some more thought I have my opinion.... but I must admit that I confuse myself if I think about it too hard..... So how do you see it? Who does the SM lead? Who does the CM lead? Who does the CC lead? If the SM is leading, who do the ASM's lead? the COR? Who follows who in a point of disagreement?

Ok then, it's more like a wedding.

@@andysmom, sounds like there's confusion about there being a chain of command between the CC and SM I'm coming around to realize that this may be a common point of "unknown", & at the cub level too maybe a new thread..... Back on the bigger point though... and I'm just looking at this logically, not from first hand experience.... i liked Stosh's analogy of the graduation ceremony One ceremony private receptions and parties graduates don't write individual scripts... they don't pick the commencement speaker I get it that it's a big deal for the boys so having a guest speaker in someone that played an important role in his life..... makes sense as a gift or prop given TO the boy.... as in say the parents surprising the boy by inviting his former SM from the next town over... the one that meant so much to him before they moved away.... or a teacher.... or whatever.... but having the scout script his own thing seems like me staging my last pack meeting as CM as an award presentation to me for all the good service I have done, complete with my writing a speech for each boy that he can read, telling me what a great impact I have made in his life....

honestly, I think what I would do in that case is find the closest matching adventure loop and present that, calling it the belt loop he earned. The boy gets bling all is well in the world

Well what you outline is very likely what will happen. I'll stay on through December or Feb or whatever.... but that sure ain't healthy for the pack. In fact it helps my son's den, but If I had a boy in any other den, I would just go ahead and go to another unit now, in that case.... unit size? we have 26 boys on the roster now, which is down. We used to carry closer to 30-32 this time of year 16 of those boys are 2nd year WEBELOS, but not all of them are active so 10 boys after crossover next year + recruits

you're right @@SlowDerbyRacer in that is is a bum deal to walk away mid "season" So that's why I drew the line for the CM now saying we need a new CM for next year. Crossover is my last day to be involved with the pack because I have to draw a line someplace. That is a very natural point. So you would have me do what, so oh never mind about that line in May 2015. I'll stay on another whole year to give you folks a 3rd chance to step up. what happens when they don't step up next year?.... I've put in my time, worn more hats than I should have, and since I've had little support with effectively no committee, no assistant, etc.... I'm done. I'll say this, if I had all of that sort of support and the job is what it really should be, then I would actually be having fun. I am starting to feel that I'm getting a role with it and would very likely be willing to run it another year as CM if I were needed.... but the thing is, there really is no excuse why someone else should take a turn.... Actually @@pargolf44067, my plan/hope was to get someone in the ACM role last September to get their comfort level built up.... but now what I'm offering is a second chance for my support.... that I'm still here as a dad, committee member, or whatever.... to answer questions or to help with almost anything you need.... if you want the help.... Otherwise, I'm happy to just be dad in the back of the room, and I might even be willing to help stack chairs on occasion @@Stosh, no guilt here.... well maybe a little, because as I look back there are some things a better person than me could have done better than I did (& who doesn't want to be better than they are?).... but knowing that I did the best that I could at the time, with what I had to work with, I'm ok..... ....and spot on about the COR. Really nice guy, but completely hands off and COR on paper only. So now I'm left with trying to put my all in to this failing transition so that i can say that I did my best about that too.

So the CC finally got around to calling the parent meeting We had a very poor turn out. I'm extremely frustrated, but feel that I have done what I can. We had our cc one Bear parent... well as of yesterday 1st year WEBELOS the 2nd year WEBELOS DL and one 2nd year WEB parent, (also the exCM) None of the younger den folks so summing up I drew a line in the sand. Lightly, but it was drawn that now is the time, and I'll be here to help through crossover... dared them to step over it. They did in affect by not showing to the meeting Now the committee wants to step back, draw another line in the sand... maybe this time in red paint?.... saying if nobody steps up by the end of the month we'll plan on not rechartering and folding the pack. Just makes me chuckle in a way, but mostly I'm just frustrated Think I'll make contact with our Field Svc director (DE vacant), just to cover bases. I doubt if they can do anything, but I might as well try....

I have yet to understand these cards. I'd rather they save the money to be spent on something more worthwhile. So what am I supposed to do with them..... take them to the next several meetings until all the boys finally show to get them, so they can throw them in the trash or loose them..... or should I just cut to the chase and loose them for the boys?......

I'll just add this.... I too am generally of the opinion that washing dishes is primarily to remove the bits that will enable the yukies to grow... and it seems to me the ONLY advantage to this whole bucket method is as @@Hedgehog wrote, to reinforce the patrol method. My observation after attending our recent WEB/Akela weekend, was that the common community wash water is dirtier than my dishes are after I'm finished with my meal! Yuk! I'm enough of a germaphobe to not want to put my stuff in that! Wipe them off and I'm better off. Unless that sanitizing bucket is kept up very well, I see this whole process as a way to cross contaminate the entire troop from the last latrine trip

paper bag with straw taped to the top string through the straw and stretched across the room 2 or more of these set-ups, side by side boys blow up balloons inside the bags, holding them closed on your mark, get set, go!