blw2

yeah, I guess I shouldn't have been so broad-brush.... I personally would be very selective of the cheap stuff. My one experience on this end re. the subject of tents.... Before my wife and I even met, i had a little Kelty tent I used to camp in. I don't recall how much exactly, put it was probably a couple hundred $ that I paid for that thing. it was really overkill for my needs, but "I believe in buying quality" (that was me standing up puffing my chest out saying that....) If that thing were set-up on top of a mountain a hurricane likely wouldn't topple it.... Meanwhile my frugal wife to be bought a cheap tent from Big Lots. probably paid $20-$30 for it. fast forward a couple years When we started camping together, we used my tent once..... then used hers till sometime after our first kid! That thing was just fine. It was easier to set up than my Kelty but had the same footprint size it was a little taller so a bit more comfortable to change clothes in. weathered rain and storms just fine... We used it occasionally until my son and wife lost one of the poles at a Den Meeting his Bear year... or maybe it was Wolf (i was sick that day and couldn't make the den meeting where they were having "set-up-the-tent" races.....) Meanwhile, the poly coating on my kelty turned to sticky goo so it went into the trash eventually. SO, that's why I'm not afraid to recommend an in-expensive tent for someone starting out. Almost certainly will last a season, likely more... and if it doesn't last, you're not out much and in the mean time have figured out what you want or need. Backpacks and other things....eh, maybe not.....

Oscar de la Renta http://mashable.com/2014/10/21/oscar-de-la-renta-boy-scout-uniform/#LWdHLGCpi8qt

oh, and nothing wrong with very basic tents from Big Lots or K-Mart for plop style..... they'll hold up fine for a while....

This was actually my question as I was reading through the first few posts of this thread.... I was thinking that the question of camping style depends really on what the boys want to do.... But I realize they probably don't know! Personally, I'm with you... I would prefer to treat almost every trip as a backpacking trip, even it were tailgate or plop camping.... except that I would steer to some use of coolers, better menus, and such for plop camping..... even though most of my experience is plop camping in some form or another I just like the idea of teaching simplicity and having options.... thinking that if they're used to more minimal equipment, it won't be that big of a difference to mix in some adventure now and then, on trail or with a paddle. I think I'm in a minority with this though. Our CO's troop has the boys supplying their own tents. I suppose they share though. The boys provide their own mess kits, which might be as simple as a plastic plate and such.... and their own bedding. I don't see a problem with this approach personally

I was wondering the same thing..... So lets say scout A keeps selling and reaches $275 what does he get for his efforts?

admittedly, I'm new to this issue but I can see how this is a hot button as a conservative, this has socialistic indoctrination written all over it.... ok, based solely on this thread I get that the funds earned were on behalf of the CO.... they own it but if Billy Scout earned that money under the guise that it was for the CO to send him to philmont or wherever..... then at some point in time Mr Marx the new scoutmaster wants to pool that money for the good of the troop.... to also help little Joey Scout who refused to do the work the whole time the fundraiser was going on "Sorry Billy, we just don't have enough money to send you and Joey to Philmont this year.... you'll have to stay local." Well that just ain't good. It's just not right.... IMHO On the other hand if little Scout Billy did the work knowing all along that it was to help the troop as a whole from the start, that's a different story altogether!

well there I go learning something today! still just looks like satan to me! evil and inappropriate I'll have to read that link when I get some time later.....

My interpretation.... could be all wrong, but based on subtleties..... If the adults that are writing these emails (committee and leaders) were properly on board with the boy led concept, the tone of the emails would be different.... not written as adult to adult, but adult to scout. I guess since we are treating scouts as young men, there may not be much of a difference..... who's in the salutation line? & if a paragraph or an email is meant for parents.... words such as "please remind your scout" would change the tone.... or perhaps even better would be the PL sending the email in the first place.... not form the adult at all. and I couldn't agree more @@Krampus, many parents are very disorganized.... especially with email.

off topic, but since the question has been answered.....@@Krampus what's with that profile picture? I must be an old and curmudgeon, but it just doesn't strike me as appropriate.... I've been trying to ignore it, but can't...... like seeing a scouter cursing or smoking in front of the boys, I've just gotta say something.

great post! it reminds me I need to follow up on that other troop visit soon.... I'm in a similar boat....but only on the mailing list for our CO's troop mostly I think as a carry over from my short time as their Committee Chair while also being the Cubmaster. They use troopwebhost to spit out the emails. Lots of emails from adults, reminders, dates, bring this, do that... some are automated I think from the system based on calendar entries.... reminders for round tables, etc... Very few are from a boy through an adult.... (sent by adult on behalf...) Because of these emails, I'm constantly getting the impression that they are more adult led than they seem to be. When I talk to one of the leaders or committee members, I sometimes ask specific questions about how certain ideas or plans came to be.... almost always it seems like a fairly decent boy led troop based on what they tell me.... but then I get another email that sure does seem like the adults are doing the planning and such... the latest example was a string of stuff setting up for a full meal dinner in conjunction with the upcoming COH One thing is for sure, there is a lot of adult energy in the troop..... good or bad I'm trying really hard to not read too much into it....

its ok @@Stosh, you got my reference & I got your humor. Don't know what's up with the other folks!

I agree to keep the plank owners together... UNLESS there's a friend in the new group of one of the old boys..... In my son's den, of what's left of the original tigers.... there are really two groups of friends. It would be a non issue to split these groups if there was a mutual friend in the new group. Also, our den has been big, almost that big in the past... I suggested to the DL that we consider splitting it but he wanted to hold off....many of the boys turned out to be very inactive, some eventually dropped.... Almost every den has had some small percentage of inactive and drops... they join but reality doesn't match the promises of the DE at the school presentations I'd almost suggest waiting a couple months to see who sticks.... maybe one den will do in the end. Just maybe

the orientation & training I'm writing of, is for the parents and behind the scenes MBC's and such... as much as for SM and ASM I'm contending it's the lack of specificity here in the existing program, that really leads to the rough start new adults have... and the wide variety of programs we have. It really isn't that hard to get, but yet here we are...!

class B, anyone?

my point exactly!... not understanding boy led..... well, that and the patrol method. But when you get down to it it's not really that hard of a concept for any mature and thinking parent to grasp. As I mentioned, I've done a fair bit of reading, and thinking, and discussing here and elsewhere.... for me what really cinched it was a short podcast..... story of likely no more than 2 or 3 minutes With a little effort, I think a lot more consistency could be had form troop to troop by just making this better understood. But yet we have boy led, we have patrols, we have adult led, and infinite variations in between.

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method.... I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be. I'm a cub scouter, and only one for a relatively short amount of time compared to some.... But I'm also the type of person that is patient in research. As with most things, when I get passionate about something I tend to search out info and learn. Many folks don't have the same patience or drive. I'm fairly certain I'm the only one in our unit that visits here regularly.... I also have listened to many podcasts from scoutmastercg, listed to interviews of greenbar bill, read some books, etc.... I'm not saying that I'd make a great SM. Far from it....There's certainly a personality component and other variables to that, along with nuances and experience that I just do not have..... but in terms of understanding the base concepts, I've got a fairly decent handle on it. At least the ground level stuff that a lot of folks will take a long time to get.... especially considering that the troop will be their only exposure in training, and so many troops are at least partially clouded with adult inference.... most folks will never invest the time.

I seriously don't remember much about my SM form the short time I was a Scout in the early 1980's.... & I have zero memory of any assistants. I was a cub scout, but joined a troop later, and only in it for 1-2 years I remember working with more senior boys. I was talking with a fellow scouter (eagle) not so long ago, and i made the comment that i really don't remember much about my old SM. He was surprised, and said something like that's a shame, your relationship with your SM should be something special that you remember.... I'm starting to think that maybe my SM was doing the boy led thing right!

@@Stosh, what sort of mess kit do you recommend? edit: I should qualify..... re your simple mess kit cooking that you've written about. Also not just Stosh, anyone else too.... the std BSA one, or something a little better?

That depends a bit I think on perspective. I'm currently reading Andrew Skurka's book, Ultimate Hikers Gear Guide. I can't remember exactly how he put it, but at the start of the book he defined three different kinds or styles of camping The two that stuck in my mind were these The ultimate backpacker which is more about spending time at camp, then hiking to the next camp site. it's fun to do and fun to tell about it later. the ultimate hiker which is more about maximum distance per day. It's not so much fun to do and sometimes not so fun to tell about it either... (the pain, the misery, etc..) (I may have butchered it a bit, but that was my takeaway) I'm more of the backpacker, or camping inspired person.... and that is the perspective I'm thinking of when I say that i wish I had more culinary tricks up my sleeve for backpack cooking.

Except I wasn't commenting on the MB.... I'm thinking more about the normal routine. An occasional plop camp or DO is great in my opinion... but it can be such a big production.... But again, this is just all my opinion and preference..... not necessarily what any given patrol wants to do.... I enjoyed your links on baking ideas by the way! I think I'll try some of those in my jetboil some day!

My anecdotal evidence.... our pack recruits the whole school, but the focus is probably more 1st grade Tiger our pack overall is close to the same size, but slightly smaller than it was 4-1/2 years ago when i got involved. A couple very small tiger dens the last couple years. I ran it pretty much the same.... the scout was always welcome, even if they didn't show often.... Sometimes though, I must admit I just bit my lip when they would show up in sports uniform, as my response would have been in conflict of my support of them showing up.

to me... the takeaway from that is that the parents probably don't know how scouts can benefit their son.... with the real benefit likely coming in 5th/6th grade at the troop level.

I agree with and have echoed most of what you've written before.... this one bullet point Start Cub Scouts at the age when we can teach knives and fire and how to setup a tent. Is a powerful statement. I agree, that is a great measure of the right time, and also points to a great thing to grab them with... I'd argue that perhaps that boy you describe will have that conflict no matter if he starts 1st grade, 3rd grade, 5th grade, or.... He's always going to be overextended.... most likely is a sporty kid from a sporty family that will most likely prioritize sports over scouts anyway....

That's one aspect of these sorts of discussions that bother me..... I guess I'm more of a wanna be backpack camper, since I've done far more plop or tailgate camping in my time... But I enjoy it and wish that I had more opportunity & skill to really get out there off the grid... So aside from the lesson of teamwork and such in this plop patrol cooking, I think it would be great if scouts showed more focus on backpack style cooking, and even on an individual level of cooking for one or only a few.... such as will likely be done in their future non-scout camping .... just like Stosh explains.... This is the kind of outdoor cooking skill i wish I would have gained in scouts. Baking in a mess kit, that's a new one for me..... Seems like there would be way too many hot spots and temp control would be hard... Baking being the one big novelty of dutch oven cooking that I think most folks find impressive..... But I sure would like to take a few lessons from you @@Stosh! I had one of those aluminum kits a long time ago, but sadly never learned to use it at your level. I think I'll keep my eye out for a good one!

I'm all for all of that, to a point.... But isn't that sort of adult led stuff though....and not totally necessary? Wouldn't it be better to suggest, encourage, &/or illustrate? (by illustrate, I mean let them see you eating large while they aren't..... see you marching strong on a hike while they are on a sugar crash) But in the end, as long as they aren't feeding PB to a severely allergic boy, why not??? I'll bet some would want to continue with frosted pop tarts for 3 squares for the week, but I'm thinking at least some will take lead and drive the patrol to something better.....