blw2

True and one hand... I know of nothing that specifically defines same age patrols.... but that also reminds me that I know of nothing that they said or wrote that says you can't have it that way. Regardless, perhaps you're right...except in at least one point. I'm not reading into what they wrote to "fit into my vision". Fact is, I had no vision prior to my study. My interpretation yes, but not my vision. I would say that my interpretation evolved over time. It wasn't a single thing I read or heard that led me to it. Maybe it's wrong, but it certainly holds some salt. Oh one other point where you're misunderstanding me a bit.... I'm not thinking they should be "same aged" at all either. That's far too rigid. It can most certainly be mixed age. I'm just thinking about how natural groups of friends form in boys and kids in general. My apologies....This will be a bit long, but please bear with me and read on.... Last year when I was pushed aside from my CM duties, I was in a way happy because it freed me up to start paying more attention here to troop level conversations, as well as do more reading on the topic, listening to podcasts, etc.... I listened to an old recorded interview of Green Bar Bill. I thumbed through the original "Scouting for Boys" and I read Aids to Scoutmastership. i also listed to a particularly interesting podcast presentation and interview of "The Scouting Party", which was about Seton, Baden-Powell, and Beard. During my study, I only started to best understand the benefit of the "Patrol Method" once I read some things about how the early patrols formed naturally. We've all heard the story of how Baden Powell found that boys back in England were using his book to play the game of scouting... this being what inspired the creation of his Boy Scouts. Who were these groups of friends that were playing scouts? In his book Aids to Scoutmastership, he wrote "From the boys’ point of view Scouting puts them into fraternity-gangs which is their natural Organisation, whether for games, mischief, or loafing; it gives them a smart dress and equipment; it appeals to their imagination and romance; and it engages them in an active, open-air life." "... their natural Organisation..." to me implies similar age and interest only because that's all I've ever known and seen. When I was a kid, there was a group of boys in the neighborhood. Most of us lived on the same street or within a block. We were mostly the same age, in the same grade, at the same school. We had some older and younger brothers in the mix but they were usually no more than a grade or two away in either direction. Some of these boys came from larger families and had brothers and sisters that were much older and some that were much younger than us. They didn't run with us and we didn't run with them. They had different interests and different abilities. Besides that, they had their own "fraternity-gangs" to run with, so why would they want to hang with the little kids?. We interacted together, but only on rare occasion. Think of things that happen naturally, such as sand lot pickup ball games. There may be some age mixing, and naturally the older boys might be more capable than the younger ones. Perhaps the older kids would be helping the other kids in some way. they might be helping to teach.... or they might be helping by inspiring the younger ones in the challenge to keep up. This idea also occurs in countless stories, movies, and tv shows where there will be a gang, a fraternity, a team, or just a group of friends that are all similar in age. It happens in youth sports too. and then think about yourself as a kid. When you were 16 or 17, did you really enjoy spending a huge amount of time with 10 and 11 year old boys? Now what sounds more fun and motivating for a Scout, hang with his true friends and peers, or get split from those guys and hang all weekend with a mixed group of acquaintances? I'm not thinking that there should be no interaction. Not at all. Actually this idea of structure lends itself well to healthy interaction of good character, where the older boys are like ideal big brothers, that from time help the younger ones to get up to speed, to coach and to teach. To introduce their younger "brothers" to the troop and to introduce them to new things. Then challenge them to catch up! It encourages interaction between the older and the younger in a way of good character. all of this thinking still fits with another statement in Aids to Scoutmastership, "The Patrol System is the one essential feature in which Scout training differs from that of all other organisations, and where the System is properly applied, it is absolutely bound to bring success. It cannot help itself!"

true for recent past maybe, but my line of thinking is coming from writings of Baden Powell and interviews of Green Bar Bill, so it predates 1989 by just a bit. I was a cub in the 1970's and a scout in the early 1980's, and I honestly have no memory of how the patrols were formed up in my troop. Whatever it was, the program didn't hold my interest so I ended up dropping after not very much time in.... so my memory is fuzzy. The sad part of that sidetrack story is that I clearly like scout stuff, and I always have liked doing the things that scouts do.... so it's sad in a way that I gained little or no benefit from the program.

good idea about printing off everything I just went and downloaded my training report so I could grab it before I'm removed as a unit "Key 3"

so the membership number is permanent then? even if I don't pay dues next year or even for a couple years it won't get deleted? that's great!

I know this is a side track to this discussion, but I'm really puzzled by this energy put into NSP vs mixed age and all the forced shuffling that happens because of it I keep remembering that the patrol concept grew out of a naturally formed "group of friends", the neighborhood "gang". These would naturally be boys that a) Have compatible personalities and interests b) probably live near each other, and c) and are generally close in age, likely most of the time in the same grade but might naturally include a few that are one grade or so higher or one grade or so lower so by my thinking, the NSP is really a natural progression and in keeping with the idea that patrols should be kept intact as BP wrote in Aides to Scoutmastership, and which only seems natural taht good friends would stick together through their scouting career, so except for an occasional shift in a scout or two it doesn't make sense to me that we would be having all of this patrol shuffling.... and then the troop naturally becomes a "mixed age" troop made up of older patrols and younger patrols In this mode, then the Patrol Guide &/or SPL, being one of the older experienced boys, really become a key position for every scout and every patrol as they move along through their scouting career... not just while in a "New Scout Patrol"... THEN the Scouts, in a patrol of their friends and given the independance, are having fun doing what's interesting to him and his patrol group and so they naturally become more motivated and grow in character as Scouts

Since my pack won't be listing me on the recharter this year (my son is crossing to a troop), I have been wondering... what's to happen with my training records, membership # for access to my.scouting, etc...? I'll most probably sign on as a scouter with his troop at some capacity in the future, and would hate to have to redo the training and loose my history. So what happens when a scouter is no longer connected with a unit? I'm registered as a Merit Badge Counsellor so I'm thinking taht might help to hold everything "active", but I'm not sure....

I have no experience with this directly, so I guess this is worth about as much as the electrons used in communicating the opinion... but, my thought is that this is the logical approach. Just thinking of it practically, it seems to me that it's a) good to give the scout the patch immediately at the next troop meeting or camp (in the spirit f immediate recognition), and then not make such a big deal about it, beyond special short and simple ceremony during a normal and routine COH according to the troop's tradition, and b) suggest a reception after... could be immediately following, or might even be at another date and time and a different location of the scout and his family's choosing... totally on them to do. Sort of along the lines of what is typically done for so many big-deal events.... graduations, first christenings, weddings, confirmations, and so on...

this reminds me of the hack of using an empty milk jug (or similar thing) with a small flashlight inside

It's been a while since I studied the flag code, and I know Stosh, that you have tons of experience here so I WILL take your word for it.... (since I'm not gonna look it up this morning) But I surely don't remember this bit about the flag staying to the congregation's right. What I remember is that the flag when travelling stays to its own right.... what I always tell boys is that the US flag bearers left hand should point to the other flag(s). Thinking that this applies to the flag, no matter which direction it is facing. BUT when they are displayed in front of the congregation the US flag is know "facing" the congregation, so they must be crossed in order for the US flag's left hand to point to the other flags. I suppose in what you are saying, the flag is looking to the speaker But in my thinking this puts the US flag to the speakers subordinate left side (which it should be under the context of God comes first, if not considering the flag code... this is the part I think that gets confusing) Re the cross, I have no idea, but to comment that it seems to me the suggestion to have separate ceremonies makes sense to me. Probably flags first, then do the cross to start the religious ceremony it seems to me so that the country doesn't interrupt the religious ceremony, but the other way around might very well be the better answer since God comes first.

This is an ideal by my way of thinking... how it should be most of the time. Seems to me camping in general is more fun when you keep it simple. I've been thinking this for some time that the backpacking style setup should be more of the norm if it were up to me.... or at least a minimal set up as if you were maybe canoeing it.... even when plop tailgate camping. Unless some odd situation arose where you might want a big cooker along or something like that. It would generally give better experience in preparation for real backpacking or adventure trips... Regarding the refill idea.... aside from the character issue that @@Stosh brings up. I remember reading some time a go over on an rv forum some folks talking about doing this for grilles and lanterns. If I remember correctly, a lot of folks have problems with these things leaking after a refill. Apparently the newer cylinders aren't up to the same quality taht they used to be. regarding a lantern.... for what its worth, I was just looking over at scoutmastercg a while ago, he has some christmas shopping lists posted.. One of the items was his prefered lantern, a ray-o-vac led unit.... for what that's worth. (I still don't like them)

Side note question.... It used to be that the AOL award would let a scout join a troop earlier (at a younger age). I assume this was as a perk for having tenure as an active scout, along with the assumption that he has proven himself ready to be a scout, and with a head start over a boy off the street that was never a cub scout or a cub that didn't go through the 1-1/2 year cycle of WEBELOS. Has there been any indication that the Boy Scout joining requirements will change? If not this it seems would in affect de-value the WEBELOS rank as well as the AOL? (again, not that it matters much to me, just a thought for the sake of discussion)

shoot, I don't think my Tivo recorded it. I didn't see this thread bump until just now.... not that I really want to see this president, but I do enjoy the show. Ah whatever, I'm glad I missed it. Probably would have just gotten my irish up....

fair enough. But only on patrol is deciding what the other patrols are doing..... so that in a large troop, you have 6-8 boys deciding what 50 boys are doing. Seems like it's a little closer to home if it's all at the patrol level..... especially if the patrols are natural patrols made up of friends with similar interests and abilities..... the small group can steer their activities to what interests them the most..... perhaps more motivating. Anyway, it's just a thought..... I guess where I'm going with this line of thought is that if scouting happens on a patrol level, why are we having "Troop" meetings at all? Let the boys do what it is they want to do..... among all of the stuff that scouts do. Then the fun happens naturally without being 'forced', as well as advancement, and motivation....

My thoughts exactly! I have really grown to "hate" lanterns. The 360 degree blinding light is rarely ever needed, and I have grown to think of anyone carrying a lantern as an ameteur camper because It seems that the folks that carry them around at the cub and scout camps aren't the veteran campers for the most part, so that's where I'm coming from. (I know you folks aren't amateurs, I'm just trying to describe how I feel about them). It seems that every time, just when i'm finally getting my eyes adapted to the night someone will walk by with one and destroy my vision for the next 45 minutes! Now I might understand the desire to have good broad-area lighting for the camp kitchen, but I propose there are better options that do not annoy neighbors and destroy the night vision of everyone within the line of sight! If you simply must have a lantern, I have seen several solar powered LED versions out there, that seem like they might be a great solution.... I have no first hand experience with any. But I suggest a better option is to encourage the development of night vision, and small personal flashlights or headlights for emergencies or personal tasks when absolutely necessary. For tasks such as camp kitchen area, where you might make a sound argument for general area lighting, I think small and directional is the ticket. I picked up one of these a while back from one of those by the cash register displays at a hardware store or a batteries plus, or somewhere similar. I like it a lot. https://www.nebotools.com/prod_details.php?id=165&cid=16 It has a clip and a magnet and throws out a good amount of light. I thought mine used AA batteries that can be had very cheap from dollar stores, but it may very well be AAA as described for this one....I have forgotten if its one or two cells and if it's AA or AAA since the batteries last so long.... and another great thing about these is you could buy a case of them for the price of one lantern and have tons of redundancy! Or perhaps this one http://www.amazon.com/Cliplight-111112-Clipstrip-Flashlight-Emergency/dp/B00HAQBEH0/ref=pd_sim_263_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=418hM6FDi9L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0CW1METM5DW24177N1E2 or something like this might work http://www.amazon.com/Cliplight-24-458-Pivot-Powerful-Flashlight/dp/B00HX526CU/ref=sr_1_74?ie=UTF8&qid=1450450804&sr=8-74&keywords=led+flashlight Or a rechargeable task light along the lines of this might be ok http://www.amazon.com/d-light-S300-Charger-Rechargeable-Lantern/dp/B00BJE7K18/ref=sr_1_19?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1450450453&sr=1-19&keywords=led+task+light

good point @@SeattlePioneer

you are right @@SeattlePioneer. For what it's worth...My last sentence points to how I feel about it.... My focus is building character. IMHO, good character doesn't mean getting credit for work not done. Doesn't mean pencil whipping. My son gets that, and I think most scouts do too. I agree with you about how discouraging it is to see the other boy get pencil whipped through. That element of character, to me is the biggest deal of all in this stuff. and the thing about AOL being such a "coveted award". The folks in my pack have always made a huge deal out of it. A big point about it being the "Highest Award in Cub Scouting" (said with chest puffed out proudly), and how hard it is and all of that. My son is among the last group to earn it under the old program. Honestly, I don't think it was all that big of a deal to get, and I don't think he does either - despite all the pomp and glory over it his 4-1/2 years in cubs. He was finished with it last year, with the exception of the time requirement and the troop visits, which ticked by easy peasy this year, and he earned it when the calendar flipped to December. No big deal. I wonder how it will be presented for the groups in the future coming through the new program of it being a "rank", and not some prestigious "award".

Yep, I'm not as familiar with the new program.... & I know nothing of the LDS twists... But there's nothing that requires any rank to be earned for the next (with the exception of the old AOL award). If a boy was lazy and didn't finish Wolf, he could still earn Bear the next year. Regardless, this is cubs. Aside from doing their best to do what they think is justifiable and right, who cares. It's cubs. It's not that critical. It's more important to build character and have fun while they are doing it.

When i read the initial post, "ideas of how to motivate scouts" And then read that they are putting one patrol in charge of the agenda for the month.... My immediate thought was sort of along the lines of what Stosh said. I'm thinking, why do that at all? maybe the boys would be better motivated if they were doing what THEY wanted to DO....with the idea in mind that "Scouting Happens at The Patrol level" why not suggest that the patrols decide what they want to do or need to do? Let each patrol plan their own destiny every month. If one patrol wants to just hang, or shoot hoops, or something, great! If the other patrol needs to work on a skill, great! If the 3rd patrol needs to plan their patrol hike coming up next month, fine. Or, if there is a troop level event coming up, ALL the patrols might agree that everyone should be working on the plan for that. Let the PLC and the SPL coordinate overlaps. Let them decide if they want to share resources with the other patrols for the event planning for example, or if they need to work on their own patrol level stuff.. The PLC could also coordinate things like shared skills work, if more than one patrol wanted to work on a particular skill, for example. My thought - NOTHING motivates a person more than doing what they themselves are interested in.

my experience was the same... a new application needed. and as I recall it was easy to go back and forth through the system.... but not after you click that last button. After that it's locked in. It gives you good warning at that point as I remember.

This thread keeps me thinking about the book I recently read, So Far So Good, a new Scoutmaster's Story the story is exactly the kind of thing that Renax wanted to do, I think,.... but you just didn't quite have the buy-in and trust from the CC. It seems like it's really tough for any person not in either the SM or CC positions to really have much of an effect in change. Anyway, heres wishing the best for your son @@Renax127, & I'm hoping you can get the distance you need to let it go.

I don't really understand the idea that "the boys aren't ready" The boys may not know what it really means. They might know that the authority given to them is only surface, or an act & I would even understand that some of the older boys m just not want to do the work. But I've gotta imagine almost any group of boys would jump at the chance to be able to decide their own fates, make their own plans, and do what it is that they want to do. I agree though it's unlikely to ever find that perfect troop. This has been exactly my dilemma. I spend more time here and elsewhere researching and gaining a better understanding of what things could be, than most scouters I know. Most seem to march along on whatever it is they have always done. But while I have interest and energy, I won't be in a trusted position to make really effective change. I may never have the opportunity to really take on a job for my son's troop that is really in a key position. Overall, I might even buy the argument taht I'm not necessarily the best person for those jobs, but at the same time I might be more energetic than others, more knowledgeable than others. So, it's sad and a bit frustrating that my son will be very unlikely to ever gain the benefit of a truly boy lead program.... and there's really not much i can do about it. But like I wrote before, I'm coming to realize that odds are good that he'll get some good out of it if the troop is at least doing some of it right. Renax, I think you're in the same situation, just a bit further along the path than I am... It'll probably take you while to let go of it... it took me a long time... but I hope you can gain some distance from it... the adult junk I mean....

Hey, that's tough. very similar thing happened to me leading into this year with the pack. It really was a kick in the gut. Just to show the similarities....Some folks met with the CC without me. These were the folks that were active leaders and the CM before, but have been completely inactive and not supportive during their "vacation" for a couple years. and Honestly, I think a lot of their motivation was driven by their inability to let go, they wanted the "glory". The funny thing was that if they would have invited me to the meeting and said they wanted to take it back over, I would have eagerly said, how can I help the transition! I made it clear to the CC that I thought it was bad form to take the meeting without me. That I felt it was a kick in the gut. I made it clear that they didn't step up to help to help in the transfer on their way out or offer or suggest things while I was doing the job, and that these would have been a much better and above board things to do..... But I also made it very clear that I was not about to add to the adult drama. I wasn't going to fight for it or get in their way. That I intended to continue to support the pack, and that was not quitting. I made it clear to the pack parents too, that I was not quitting. I didn't make any statements or points to the boys at all though, just taht i was not going to be their CM next year... To me the "not quitting" was the message I was most concerned about. Anyway, I took some time to back away form Scouting completely. It was easy since we break for the summer. I even stopped reading about scouting, stopped visiting this forum for a while just to distance myself and gain perspective. It's ultimately up to the CC, their decision. I would want to make it clear that you are disappointed in the decision, and disappointed that they did it behind your back, but personally i would not make any sort of stink out of it at all. I would offer support just like they should have offered you. Support the new SM with the program he is trying to run..... as much as you can stomach anyway. Just don't do anything negative or undermine it. The fact is that you didn't have the cc's support, so it was probably doomed to failure anyway. It seems that a scouter really can't affect change without gaining the support and trust of the CC @@Renax127, i didn't catch it.... what is your current position? I'm assuming ASM, is that right? IMHO, I think JoeBob is right. Stick around and give as much cooperative support as you can muster.... not so much for the sake of giving the support, as it is to send a better message to your son and the other scouts. this podcast sort of addresses this point. It was in direct response to an email conversation I had with Mr. Green. Maybe it could help you just a little http://scoutmastercg.com/podcast-294-cooperative-volunteering/ Who knows, maybe you can affect a better change in the troop from that way in some other position. Some folks just aren't cut with the right personality or skills to do the SM job. Maybe they see that in you in some way, right or wrong. I know I wasn't cut out for CM, but I did my best and put a lot into the job. That's all I could do in the end.... I stepped up and helped when nobody else would and ended up doing a pretty good job, but I can honestly say it wasn't the best fit for me. In the end I'm coming to realize that BP was right, when he wrote more or less, that any boy can get good out of scouting, as long as the scouter does no harm. SO, even in a less than perfect program your son can get something out of it good. BUT, I'll bet odds are that he would be best served in a different unit. It sounds like he's frustrated with it anyway.

ah, but scouting happens at the patrol level, right? Big unit or not, the patrol is approx 6-8 boys... nothing more. Not so hard for the PL to track his patrol and communicate needs and progress as necessary to SM And taking it a step further, seems like the scout should be responsible for his own stuff anyway...easier still to track one edit: oh, sorry, I forgot we were talking cubs. so, the scout being responsible for his own falls apart just a little.... I do think they should have more responsibility, but that's a point for another thread I suppose.... but if you think of a den like a patrol, it's kinda the same, right? So I still fall back that it doesn't matter if its a big unit or not.

I just caught wind of a troop near by getting dropped by its CO. It is/was a fairly large troop at around 50 or scouts I think. As far as I know it's a non-denominational church, for whatever that's worth. Funny thing, I don't necessarily disagree with churches for doing this... they have to follow their faith after all.... and I have to say that I think the BSA was wrong for even making this an issue. But what strikes me even more is the message that sends. That's a lot of scouts trying to find a new home. That's 50 families that reduce contact with that church. For whichever church agrees to pick up that charter, that's 50 families that start coming in their doors. 50 families getting exposed to their message. 50 families worth of potential new church members. That's really something when you think of it in those terms.

How about selling you on dropping the software all together? I spent a lot of time looking into various options out there, over a couple years. I also spent considerable effort in trying to manually track my son's dens progress when I was Assistant Den leader the 1st time around. I was using a spreadsheet template http://trax.boy-scouts.net/cubtrax.htm and I tried using the poster that they sold at the scout shop, thinking that a visual aid during the den meetings would be useful to trigger interest and energy. I tried checking books during meetings I tried emailing parents asking them for their updates I tried asking the boys. The fact of the matter was taht none of them (boys or parents) were the least bit interested in tracking it. And I eventually came to realize that tracking it for Cubs really just does not matter. Aside from making the award chair's job easier being able to see which awards are due or almost complete, there really is no benefit. I think these tracking software options really are only a benefit for troop level stuff, and even then I'm doubtful. They just make work to do. My suggestion, let the boys, parents, den leaders do the signoffs in the book When the earn something outside of a den meeting, it's up to them to let the DL know. Use a group email &/or SMS service for communication. (such as emaildodo) and set up a online syncable calendar such as a google calendar.