blw2

Yep, America OnLine! so getting through it by say mid to late January is not reasonably likely then.....

yep, the unit key three can enter the date training was completed for everyone except themselves So I assume you would get another one of the key 3 to enter you. No proof required. Scouts Honor.

I believe the signature that you are looking for is either district or council so i would go back to your DE Give him or her the application and let them deal with it. or, if it's easier for me I would give it to the registrar in council's office yeah, i know.... that can be a black hole for paperwork.... my point is though, be strong and push it off to "them". It shouldn't be this hard to volunteer! For what it's worth or my one and only knot, after getting the committee chair's signature i emailed the application to our Field Service Director, who was then filling in for the vacant DE who forwarded the email (without attachment) to the registrar. The registrar then replied asking for the attachment, which I resent to her. I have no idea who ended up signing the thing.... but they gave me the knot and a certificate a few months later at a round table

I haven't heard it in NFC

does anyone else have anything different re the time to complete IF he were to do the new program? @@Eagle94-A1 said 7 months. Seem about right?

I really don't understand the big deal..... say the pledge outside....call it a ceremony. let the boys run a flag up a pole if you have one...... doesn't take too long. march the flag and post the colors.... great! it's not a requirement, but an opportunity. Do it outside.... it's an outdoor ceremony. Light a candle and sing God Bless America while looking at a flag.... easy enough. It's a requirement in the book, to participate. If this is such a big deal, ask the boys in your unit what that means to them..... and do it their way! A lot of these are just examples of ways we have gotten through the requirement &/or taught the boys a little about flag protocol....

I don't disagree with any of that @@qwazse. Well said. all of that is more or less what was meant by "above board".... kinda the greater point of it all I think. But a lot of this is really between this boy, his parents, and God. I think it's fair to say that the DL and I are just looking for his options to help steer him on the path....

that reminds me.... my son's Wolf year, we did a trip to Patriot's Point to sleep aboard the aircraft carrier. On that trip, we did an excursion to Ft Sumter with multiple scout units from the ship They have 6 flag poles there, and the rangers did an outstanding ceremony/lesson. At each pole, the boys stood shoulder to shoulder around huge flags, unfurling them while the rangers gave their lessons about all the flags, then they all participated in the raising of the flags. This was done in the morning before the Ft was opened to the public. It was very well done.

@@Stosh, I'm with you. It would be different in my mind if he was a bad egg. A trouble maker.... but he's a good kid. I honestly think that he probably will shine more in the troop I don't like the idea of teaching him, or any kid, that it's ok to short cut the program, break the rules, you can get by without doing the work, etc.... So my hope would be to work him through to a "reasonably legit" finish. But in my mind it's not so much about taking it all too seriously. It's not even really about the Cub Scout stuff. It's about helping him to meet the joining requirements for the real "show". Honestly, I suspect the troop would take him regardless.... we're just trying to grease the skids and make it as above board as reasonably possible for him Assuming he wants it. We'll ask him soon enough!

valid point BUT I'm of the opinion, in this context anyway, that the intention is probably participate in a color guard. it's not that big of a deal really. What we did..... at a den meeting, lined the boys up at the school flag pole, and saluted as each boy had a turn. Most of the boys got a kick out of it. Actually, we went beyond that.... I think it was Wolf year that teh DL & I bought a couple flag poles like these http://www.valleyforgeflag.com/Prod-18-1-63-351/.htm one for the US flag and one for the Den Flag I made a couple wood stands out of some scrap lumber He's gotten away from doing it, but for a long while we ran through a whole posting the colors routine at every meeting (march the flags to the front, and all of that) Sometimes when we were meeting outdoors, that would be an outdoor ceremony. Proud to say that my son's den has always done the best when it's our turn at the pack meetings.

oh, popcorn.... last year I could get nobody interested in chairing it, so we didn't sell it nobody wants to sell it in our pack anyway, even though the pack has done well with it in the past. But the folks taking back over have a big popcorn push going. Should be interesting....

Well, I can't believe i didn't think of that. Good point! Pencil whipping never sits right with me, so I'll make sure this is known but at the same time if he's a good way along on his WEBELOS in the old system, I'm not so sure I wouldn't "look the other way".... 7 months eh? So figuring that most packs are like us, and get started up sometime in September, then they are shooting for crossovers round about March then? Nice! Our pack for some reason is driving to do it in January this year, so this could be tough for a boy like this.

Our 2nd year WEBELOS den is continuing with the old program to finish up The DL and I were doing some planning yesterday, and we were discussing a boy that has been with us since Tiger but has never been all that into the requirements and earning rank. in fact a few years he never finished them.... he didn't get his WEBELOS badge last year Honestly, I don't think he cares about rank, he's just in it for fun. He comes to some meetings, just for fun. He's not what i would call overly active & he goes for long plugs with no attendance. Some was due to illness But he's consistent anyway. A real positive attitude, an older brother in scouts, and good parents anyway, at the first meeting, the DL is planning to review the Boy Scout Joining Requirements completed 5th grade or 11 YO or 10 YO + AOL so that everyone knows the end goal.... "Do you want it or not?" This boy will be 10 at crossover time, and in the 5th grade.... We feel it would be a shame for him to not be able to cross the bridge, IF HE WANTS IT, with his den So, our question Assuming he wants it We were wondering if the new AOL rank program might be a better option for him, depending on how far along he really is with his WEBELOS badge work... Is it possible to run through the new AOL rank program in the new book, for a crossover in January?

yeah, I would agree with that in fact the swat team seems more like a cub meeting. Fun? of course!!! If i'm a boy or parent visiting, I'm there to see how the troop operates, ask questions, maybe hear some stories, maybe just sit quietly in the back and watch, maybe join in.... but I'm not there to learn about the swat team. What does that tell me about the troop?

lots of great discussion, thanks! ... and so true that many of these questions are things that could, or perhaps should be observed.... I'll amend my stated goal to make this a list of things to look for in a troop AND tips on how to observe a troop. I sure am really going to need to take some time to compile this somehow, eliminate duplicates, etc.... and boil it down into something easier to grasp. this is great! About the ringer meetings. At first jerk of the knee, I might say that i don't want the boys to see a ringer meeting.... but there's something to be said for the troop to make effort and make the young boys feel welcome and have fun. Some things, like that OOA ceremony, may very well not be understood and might complicate things. and after thinking of it more, I wouldn't want to do an unannounced visit as the first meeting I think. Maybe as a more casual follow-up visit. and maybe with a call to the SM just a couple hours prior to confirm that its ok....

This is great everyone! thank you all very much to those that have chimed in so far. I'm getting quite a list of ideas to chase, that are going to require a fair bit of work from me to boil down into some simple guidance! Thank you all so far!!!

I would agree that a long list isn't appropriate to send or even to plan to run through each and every question... But I do think it's a reasonable idea to blast out a few brief questions ahead of time. Interesting idea @@5yearscouter Some questions could benefit from a bit of fact checking &/or reflection... One that comes to mind is regarding the size, participation, and age demographics of the troop... as examples I certainly wouldn't be too happy with a snarky reply either... A scout is helpful afterall.... Very valid points, me thinks! My point of this thread isn't to generate a multi paged list.... in fact I'm not even sure I would share my current list in its entirety as it is.... but there are a whole lot of good ones in there now! I do think it's good to go in prepared thinking ahead of the things that are important, and how best to use the limited window that we'll surely have to find out as much as reasonably appropriate..... and how best to pick through the show to get at the truth.... if that's the case.... I think it's important to remember that these boys, if they don't have an older brother in, they don't know what patrol method is (for example).... or boy lead. They might have heard of it, but the don't really know.... so they don't know to look for it, they don't know what to ask. They might not even understand why it's important to look for it, even after it's explained or demonstrated! That, I see as falling under Akela's wing, or the Den Leader's, to help guide the boy a bit.

I find that there are a lot of egos in scouting, at least in my limited experience. Especially in leaders that have been around a while, leaders that were eagles, etc.... they have very specific opinions some times, even to the point of "know the only right way". Maybe that's what you're up against or maybe they feel they have too many leaders already or maybe its something else....

I'll bet many aren't that good @@Stosh! Here's my rough list so far.... again, I'm thinking this is just a list of questions for priming the pump.... could ask some, might scroll down and ask them all, or might just use it as an example of the "kinds of questions you might want to ask" Troop Shopping Questions: How big is your troop? How Assistant SM’s? how many boys? ask Adults - Who leads your troop? ask Boys - Who leads your troop? How long has the leadership been in place? Are any getting ready to move on? (aged out kids or other reasons) How are the decisions made such as where you are going and when? What sorts of trips do you do? special outings normal outings? high adventure? How is your youth participation rate in activities (%)? How much interaction is there between adults and boys? How are your patrols formed? Who decides? Do your patrols get reformed periodically? For what reasons? Who drives it? Who decides? What nights and times are your meetings? Do you have any new scout normal practices, special patrols or duties? What leadership positions are scouts allowed to have in the first year? Second year? What are the requirements for these leadership positions? (Hint: they should have a document they can email to you) How do you handle disciplinary issues? Are your adult leaders trained? What training do they have? Are your youth leaders trained? What training do they have? Age split of the troop (%) 11-13? 14-16? Over 16? How active are each of these age groups (e.g., how often do the older scouts show up and help at meetings or campouts?) Do you have rangemasters or RSO’s in the troop? Merit badge counselors in the troop? How are merit badges taught and what prompts it? What if anything do you require from parents?

but the OP is asking about a Pack..... as is my example I guess you could think of it the same and handle it the same as a troop, but from my perspective it's a bit different...... with more need for a schedule and plan.... since we're dealing with adults.

guessing, but the $10 is likely what council collects to cover dues till recharter..... that's what they do around here.... Personally, I like the model that our pack follows We try to do one fundraiser per year. It limits the focus on money we charge a one lump sum Pack activity fee payment. I think we're doing $85 for the year this time. it covers most of the expenses - boys life, a t-shirt, the awards an average boy will earn, leaders dues, and in theory some other operating expenses. that + our one fundraiser covers everything if someone can't afford it, we'll cover it..... but I'm not sure that ever happens. didn't in my time then we can focus on the program and not another fundraiser regardless if your CO covers dues or not, I would think a better approach would be to collect dues. Your CO is covering $24 a head, so yours could be $60, or whatever your committee feels it needs to be.

that seems like a great suggestion!

all very great points, and some great suggestions! I would believe that it's not the best criterion to consider, but he's 10. & my 10 year old isn't king social and only has a few good friends. Jsut started school and was put in a class with none of his friends..... he's getting by with a positive enough attitude, but seems pretty miserable.... He'll go where his friends do if left to him, no matter how bad the rest of it is. and that's really my point.... to at least prime the pumps with potential questions.... I know what I would do, and most folks will..... at some point we'll arrange for a troop visit as part of the AOl requirements. The troop will be ready for it, with some planned presentation &/or activity. We'll sit like good lumps on the log, and soak it in, trying to get a read on the people and the troop. We'll ask a few questions that come to mind, but we'll miss a whole lot of stuff.... IF we don't prepare! even if the troop answers the questions honestly, instead of what they think we want to hear, the point as I see it isn't so much the answer itself as a conduit to read the people and the troop.... such as @@Stosh 's comments about his lack of older boys, for example.... @@fred johnson, I think that's kinda to your point too. And to your point, and @@Eagle94-A1, because it's my church.... my CO's troop would be where I would prefer to go and prefer to steer my son, if all things are equal..... but I think it would be dumb to not look closely at the other choice. I seriously doubt if either is the perfect model of patrol method and boy lead and folks not worried about their egos, and adventure trips, and so on..... But my hope is that my son and friends can pick the best option for them, and for the right reasons....

I think the approach Badwolf suggests is the way to go. @@ShutterbugMom, most of your post could have been written by me. It's a real struggle. I have thought a lot about this. I've attended university of scouting courses on recruiting volunteers and I've read online a lot about it There are lots of good suggestions to be had.... have detailed and honest job descriptions at the ready target a specific person and ask them directly..."I need YOUR help, and you would be perfect for ..." start with small jobs etc... I've tried all of that I've tried general appeals I've pulled the heart strings.... pointing out at pack meetings that these few years are the ones we can make the biggest impact memories in your son's lives I've tried Sign-up Genius lists I have tried the idea of just dropping things.... doing what I can handle, and focusing on what I and the other few volunteers could do for the best program possible given what we have to work with, and if somebody doesn't step up for XYZ, then we just will skip it this year... I've hoped that when folks see a need, that they would step up But it really comes down to two things i think 1) some folks have a "servant's heart", and others just don't 2) setting the expectation early and clear! 45 parents.... So am I right to assume 20ish boys in the pack? Oh, one more thought... if parents don't pay dues, then they are less likely to value it. That's true with most things.... If you pay a doctor a $5 co-pay, and that doctor advises you to do something difficult you are less likely to do it than if you paid a doctor or other consultant $100 for the same advice. It's a psychology thing.... The guy charging $100 is perceived as more of an expert.