blw2

Thank you Sentinal and others.... Yeah, I think I might have mislead you in my thinking. I said ok so far, to taht... seeing the good in the monitoring. Certainly they can't advise or coach without knowing what's going on. oh, and I certainly didn't mean that in my theoretical scenario that the whole thing just be handed to the boys to let them steer it. I just meant that it seems like it has to be put very clearly that it's their troop, their program. Of course the adults have to be envolved... but it sure seems like its a balancing act!

Totally agree that it's a lot about choosing the hills worth dying on. I have come to learn that this is true in almost all things in life! and that's exactly where I am now... I now it, now I have to settle on it I was hoping that all these little flags I was seeing were just the small little things that they each are on their own merit.... but with just a very short time with the troop I'm thinking they are all kindof lumped together from a bigger systemic issue. I could be and very likely am wrong, naive maybe, but I believe that while it might seem that much of this is a continuum, it really doesn't have to be. It does seem to me that the transition could be much shorter, if the following happens. 1) the SM has the vision, and completely understand what it is that he's after 2) he lays it out for the committee chair and get's their support (or visa versa, the CC's idea and they get the SM's support) 3) The two of them present a united front in supporting each other, rip off the bandaid and lay out the vision to the scouts and the parents. Throw out all the rules, and tell the boys very clearly that it's up to them. Make it very clear that it is their troop. Their handbook is their guide book. The adults are there to support them, and they are in charge. But do all this in a way to gain everyone's trust so they will give it a chance. 4) and then be very consistent in giving the scouts the authority and support, making it the SM's job to manage the adults and keep them over by the coffee pot till everyone gets used to it. I can't imagine a scenario of making a fast wholesale change though, without both the CC and the SM. Seems like ASM's, committee members, etc... aren't in a position to do it. I can also see though, that some variables such as a CC or SM that are not in a strong and trusted place... or with some seriously negative and strong influence from other key adults, etc, maybe be huge variables to overcome. I like your motto very much! "Never, ever, let perfect be the enemy of good. " much like the BP I keep going back too.... " the boys will get soem good form scouting, as long as the scouter does no harm." or something to that affect...

yeah, probably so, but at least the folks on the program side get to do fun stuff and spend time with the scouts doing what scouts do

That might be a factor, at least a small one.... Regardless if that plays into this or not, I love the idea of a scout hut or dedicated "room" or "rooms" A place where they can hang their own stuff on the walls where they want to a leave it there. A place of their own!

one reason why I was hoping to be asked to fill a ASM role instead of treasurer!

yeah, after last nights meeting I'm pretty confident that all these little yellow or red flags I have been noticing are not lying. I came into the meeting a little late, but what I saw was the patrols all sitting at separate tables doing something, while the SM and an assistant or two were roaming the room watching an listening.... ok so far i think, although arguably it might be better if if they would have joined me and the other committee members and ASM's in the back of the room Then at some point, it very closely resembled a pack meeting. The SM started addressing the troop, with announcements and such. He then asked the adults one at a time if we had anything to add... a few did. Meanwhile, the kid at the front was sitting looking bored as a rock, elbows on the table and head in hands. (I think he was the ASPL since the SPL couldn't make it) there were some other things too, but it was a very adult lead meeting for sure. I certainly don't want to throw stones, but just bringing it up for this discussion... for learning. The troop certainly has come a long way in the last 1-1/2 years or so when they had dwindled to a very small fully adult run group. They still keep saying "we are working on it" or "we are trying to change" Now that I'm on the committee I'm going to have to start quoting Yoda at the committee mtgs. Good job I think. no question that in my case the SM or other committee member would send the email oh yes, true enough.... it's a nitpicky thing for sure.... but that was sort of my thought starting the thread. Little signs you might see.... yeah, prob makes sense for sure. If I was the one doing it, I would try to make it clear in every case, by the wording in my email.... that either I am sending at the request of the scout leadership, OR I am Sending to that parents as a courtesy update I do see your point that the term is used maybe too often and does get tiresome but scout enjoyment is I think one of the things, maybe the first thing, that erodes very quickly with adult led methods. As a new committee member I won't be able to significantly turn the ship. So, I think I'll prob have to learn to let some of this go. Seems like an ASM or even more so the SM has the most control to steer it. I get that they are working on it.... but honestly it seems to me that if we are willing to let the kids fail as was previously mentioned, it doesn't have to be all that long of a process... if one were to really practice never doing something a boy can do.

ooo, I like that one! In the conversations I've had with fellow scouters about this whole topic of what is boy lead, I think this concept has resulted in the biggest eyes! My favorite one was from somebody on this forum, sorry I can't give proper credit.... but it was a story about scouts on a hike, and the SM was pulling up the rear, following the troop..... and he had given the map and compass to the SPL. I like the reactions I get from that story.

The other current thread about food at COH made me think of a topic to throw out. What are things you see that might be a red flag that adults might be over stepping? I'm new to the troop as an adult volunteer, and I'm trying hard to keep an open mind and not judge too much. & that's hard for a person with my personality type (engineer and naturally look for issues that need to be corrected) I'm also planning to go with the flow as much as absolutely possible, and not backseat drive or in anyway make it seem that i want to take over... especially early on as I both learn & earn trust BUT.... as a committee member, it seems that part of my responsibility is to "suggest and advise" So, all that having been said..... Of course there's the obvious stuff.... perhaps adults talking in an average troop meeting beyond the SM minute, an adult in charge of a 3rd year webelos patrol, or stuff like that..... but what are some smaller things you have noticed, that in hindsight turned out to be pretty good indicators? A few little examples I've noticed, that might be an indicator.... or they might be perfectly ok in the overall balance of things. At this point I'm just looking at them as "little yellow flags" for things to keep in mind, but not as things that I feel I need to address at this point. Thumbing through a troop POR job description handout, I noticed that several of the positions "report to" the SPL.... great.... But more than a few are described as "reporting to" the SM. My first thought is that all should be reporting to the SPL.... The food at the COH had all the markings of being thought up by adults, planned by adults, and executed by adults.... all emails to the troop... reminders, directives, instructions, etc.... are send from adults to "troop", with no indication that a youth leader asked that adult to do this... So my question: What are things you see that might be a red flag that adults might be over stepping? And some secondary questions: At what point, or give an example of, something that is big enough that needs to be brought up or addressed now, or at the next committee mtg? and how is that best done in a positive way without seeming like a backseat driver, or something?

Stosh Posted Today, 11:15 AM Krampus, on 02 Feb 2016 - 10:27 AM, said: Tell him I still miss him. Yeah, no kidding Stosh!

I'm new to my troop, so I don't know the history of why we do but what they did for my first meeting after my son and I joined is a potluck They set up a potluck dinner 30 minutes before the start of the ceremony It was mostly what I would call heavy horderves My impression, this is one of those adult-run things we do since the adults seemed to be doing most all of it. It had all the markings of adult anyway.... I'm keeping my mouth shut for now, in the spirit of cooperation, but I'm trying to come up with a way to "hint" that the boys should be deciding if they want it, and heading up the whole thing.

yeah, you know I don't disagree with where you are going with that at all!... and in a perfect world I'd be right in there suggesting she be replaced (of course based only on what we know here) My story again as a parallel..... My pack's DL's did a lot of these things.... partial or no uniforms not participating in the pack's calendar infrequent committee attendance at best in some cases probably not the most ideal adult role models etc... But if there aren't other den leader candidates waiting in the wings to take it, it might be better to work with the people you've got OF Course as long as YPT guidelines, general safety, and so on aren't violated AND if things are in keeping with the scout oath and law, and the boys are having fun and learning.... and if the parents are generally happy. Otherwise, what's the alternative? Close the den and tell the boys to not come back? Going back to the concern I had when my son was troop shopping that there just were absolutely NO perfectly run boy lead patrol method troops in this area, and so he was going to miss out on EVERYTHING that scouting can bring for him. I eventually came to realize that BP was correct when he wrote something to the effect of this "All boys can get something out of scouting, as long as the SM does no harm." So, one might argue that this leader is doing harm because she's depriving the boys of the full good that can be had but on the other hand if the boys are getting some good out of the experience, isn't that at least a partial win?

I would suggest that a patrol of 6 isn't really small... actually right in the "perfect range".... unless maybe half of them are not active and never there. I would echo others, and suggest that the ASM shouldn't be a) over a patrol (sounds like 3rd year WEBELOS to me) b) doing anything not directed by the SM And agreed let the boys work it out... I might suggest that someone point them to their "game book" to reference what a patrol should look like in size and structure. It shouldn't take too many questions or nudges for them to figure out that 12 is more than it should be and, oh would you look at that.... 12 divided by two gets you dead smack onto the perfect range. and personally, I would suggest that if it works so that the two patrols aren't split exactly 50/50..... who cares?!? Let them figure out what they want.

I had the opportunity to trade a joke or two with Tico Perez over the weekend, and shake his hand while we were both waiting in line for coffee. Not a meaningful discussion, or even a discussion at all really, but he seems like a nice guy. Later, I was trying to explain to my son, who was with me at the time, who the guy was.... and I realize I don't really know myself. I know what Unit Commissioner does (at least in theory, I've only met one once...) But what is Mr Perez's job?

I have a few comments Your den leader sounds a lot like the previous pack leadership in my pack, many of which were still involved with younger sons, really had a "anti BSA policy" attitude. Partial uniforms at best, blowing off requirements such as BALOO for camping, and so on. Some of it really drove me nuts, but I have to admit in a few small ways some of it makes sense. You might say that their bad attitude rubbed off, but I think of it more as looking at things realistically, and determining which things are truly important. To me, the only really big issue in your case, is the thought that the requirements might have been pencil whipped. That was the thing that most drove me nuts through cubs, and where I feel the boys are most cheated. It's also one of the most difficult things to really address. Pencil whipping was probably my biggest pet peeve, and one that I was never able to successfully eliminate. since so much of it falls on the parents to certify that it was done and that he did his best. You kinda have to take their word for it. but remember, this is cubs. I think holding regular fairly frequent meetings and more than that is having FUN as long as it's all in keeping of the scout oath and law, are way more important that following every letter of the requirements. If the boys aren't having fun they will want to drop, and we'll lose the opportunity to build character, give citizenship training, or give them good adult association through scouting. With cub scouts, it's not nearly as important to track completing requirements and such as it is in Boy Scouts. It teaches work ethic and good habits of course, and there are great lessons built in for the boys. For cubs it's gotta be more about the fun kind of learning. Regarding the tour permits. My council, at least the last time I looked only required them when not going to a council event. When I first started as ACM and then CM, I like you was really trying to follow the letter of the law. I gave good effort to filling out these things, but very quickly I saw the stupidity in that. The form asks for licence plates of every car, and so on.... At least for us, EVERY event was a family oriented thing and a parent was supposed to be along with the scout. Usually the scout is riding with their parent anyway. It's not like Scouts where a couple of adults are loading up a bunch of non-family member scouts and driving them sometimes great distances. That really seems to be the intended focus of those permits. So I would say that if you have bunches of folks lined up to take her place, then yeah... you should make more of an effort to follow the program in the way that YOU want to do it. Otherwise, like stosh and others said if the boys are happy and the parents are happy, then step back and remember this is only cub scouts.

great to hear! I've got to say that with experience here I'd bet the class was at least as good as any other, if not better. Just because of the many different perspectives you get here. somewhat related, I took SM specific this weekend too. Pretty sure it wasn't your class, it was at our U of Scouting (north florida) It was interesting mostly because of the teacher. he's been a scouter since the early 1970's, and said he's been teaching that particular class (in all of it's various versions) since 1975! That would have been about when i was a wolf cub scout.... Mine was a good class, great teacher.... but I've got to say I feel absolutely no better prepared now than i did last week. I'll bet your class was likely better. He did stress letting the boys lead, but honestly I don't think he did enough to really get through to some of the students. It was just too little time to squeeze in better discussion. I brought up a few tidbits & things I have learned through my self study but there wasn't enough time to really get into it. A few things he taught seemed a little too much on the fence for my liking.... too much "it depends on the unit" talk, some of which really undermines some boy lead principles.... & I gathered that some of the good stuff just didn't click for many of the students who had already been working as ASM and SM.

I heard a great quote this weekend that applies to this thread, watching an episode of that old 1970's TV show Kung-Fu of all places! of course this isn't the exact words, but close.... This was one of those flashbacks where Caine's master is teaching him wisdom The master say's "I have three treasures that I hold the first is mercy, for from mercy comes courage second, frugality, from which comes generosity to others and third, humility, from it comes leadership" The Caine asks, "where do I hold these, in memory?" The master laughs while saying ...."No, not in your memory, but in your deeds!"

I was offline and thinking about this question. qwazse's last post that sort of sums all this up, pretty much almost addresses the first thought I had. The OP stipulated that the activity must be relevant to scouting. What does that even mean? macaroni art? why not? there is an art merit badge after all..... so along the lines of what others have suggested, go with what the scouts want... as long as it doesn't conflict with the scout oath AND its fun, I'd say go for it movie night? Personally, i would say why not.... once in a while anyway. My second thought was building on what another poster wrote earlier.... It seems to me that it's a good idea to encourage more patrol meetings/activities rather than whole troop meetings. That way, if your patrols are segregated at all they can choose what's most fun to them... as in the leadership corps patrol is likely to have a different idea of fun than a new scout patrol would.

first I heard of this one funny, the procedure to sign up to receive it isn't very obvious..... I am under the weather no so it might just be me... but this reminds me of a similar thing I signed up for recommended by someone here, I think it was for merit badge counselors I received one or two I think , then haven't seen them in a long time

oh, another resource that seems like a good one, in addition to this site scoutmastercg.com

Hey, great to see a scout here. It will be great to get a scout's opinion on the discussion threads sometimes. I have some food for thought, not really a specific activity idea, but food for thought. I would try to look at some of the things you've already done from a different angle For example, you mentioned you have already done first aid. Well first aid is really a very broad subject, but most first aid classes I have attended through the years, both scouting related and non-scouting, have been pretty much hands off demonstration. If they are hands on, it's really basic stuff, regurgitated from a book. Last year at our WEBELOS/AKELA weekend, they were having troops set up at stations demonstrating different topics. First aid, pioneering, etc. For first aid, it was fairly basic stuff. Probably some of the same type of thing you have done. They demonstrated how to make a stretcher from sticks and a blanket. They showed the webelos how to wrap an ankle with a necker, and then the webelos actually tried it. Stuff like that. Good stuff, but I doubt if my son would be very confident or proficient if he really had to do it for real. So practicing some skills in a different way might be helpful. So, maybe you could hit some of that in a different way that might be fun and help everyone to be more proficient at the same time, like splint and stretcher races. Or maybe you could find a real and experienced paramedic to come in and help you guys understand real world practices and situations better. You mentioned wilderness survival. What sorts of things have you done for that? I'm an old guy, so what do I know... but it has always seemed to me that doing some real world wilderness survival experiences would have been a blast when I was a scout. For example, I saw once on one of those tv programs, where the situation was stranded in a swamp and night was coming. He needs fire and shelter right? hard to do those things if you're standing in ankle or knee deep water so he found a forked tree and built a little platform bed up out of the water. then he built his firepit out of mud, right there on the platform. So he was high and dry with fire, completely out of the water. Seems like that could be fun to do, even if simulated on dry land, and then spend the night on it! So my point is this - try to think outside the box - and try to think of practical uses for the skills - and strive for proficiency...don't just go through the motions, such as a necker loosely wrapped around a sprained ankle, but really figure out how to correctly and tightly wrap it. then wear it for a mile or two or more to simulate the actual rescue hike out of the woods...so that you learn what too tight is, what works, what doesn't work, and so on...

This is actually a great point I think. When I was CM a couple years ago, we had a decently successful "round-up" effort. We were without a DE, so the Field Director was acting DE, and he visited our Parish's school, talked with the kids. He really got them pumped up. It wasn't long they started dropping like flies and leaving the pack, because it wasn't as advertised. I asked most all of the new boys what they heard that they liked. Trying to get a feel for what they wanted to do so I could try to make it a better program. All of the new boys thought every meeting was going to be stuff like shooting bb guns, (a few times a year at the most, at cuborees and such.... and then you have to wait through an hour in line waiting and getting safety trained, all just to shoot maybe 10 bb's) Sleeping in the stadium downtown and watching a movie on the jumbotron (special even, once per year if your lucky)

can't believe nobody has said it yet... invite them to join in the conversation here! I got hooked on forums as a way to learn about interests or hobbies a long time ago. I value what I have learned here very much. I've been exposed to a lot more in depth info and different view points here than I ever had form my fellow scouter in my unit or at round tables. I'm pretty sure it was here where I read tips such as ask the SPL or PL who is running the meeting for permission to do anything in the meeting, or better wait until invited to speak. also that the only thing a SM should really say during a troop mtg is the scoutmaster minute these might be exaggerated, or maybe not, but I think they really help set the tone or illustrate "boy led" really means

great question I think! I'll prob have more thoughts after this weekend because I'm signed up for SM specific at our U of Scouting but really not much, as I have no experience in scoutmastership, only some book learnin' but I'll say this. in my research these last bunch of months trying to get up to speed to help at the troop I've read a couple things that I would suggest any SM or ASM read (or re-read), even experienced Scoutmasters Aids to Scoutmastership for grounding in the fundamental concepts and So Far, So Good! A New Scoutmaster's Story The author wrote this with exactly your question in mind. After 30 years of being SM, how would he do it if he was starting over, but knowing what he knows now....

In general terms, i sometimes think of a good leader as being a person that people want to follow. It might have nothing really to do about that leader caring about me but it's something else, sometimes it's personality driven maybe that I want to be like that person. I want some of what they've got perhaps. I don't know exactly. Maybe a way to picture it more like the leader pulling up, as opposed to supporting from below. so is that top down? or bottom up?

oh, that's easy... I learned about 3-wheeled cars in the pinewood derby races