Tampa Turtle

Lordy, lordy. I was just up in Savannah and visited the Julia Low house. Must have seen a thousand Girl Scouts and leaders and talked to dozens. They all seemed just swell--not the little green shirted demons at all... When I see these topics I think "you know, Boy Scouts is enough". But I do not have a dog in that hunt.

It seems you do not think the boy is pulling a fast one so I would fix it and give it a pass.

They were probably around -- there seems to be organic problems with true ADD kids and while you adapt you do not outgrow it. So a lot of them grew up and achieved less than they might have with help. A much higher percentage of kids with ADD/ADHD end up as drop-outs, in prison, or abusing alchohol/drugs. Not all but at 2-3x the average. But yes it is hard to identify with all the other "background noise" of boys coming of age. I know as a parent it has been hard for me to judge when he is having problems he cannot stop vs. "being bad". In our case I know he has been punished many times when he probably couldn't stop what he was doing--even if you held a gun to his head. All this stuff gets pretty complicated as so many kids tend to have multiple issues --i.e. OCD and ADD or Asbergers and ADHD. Even if you can medicate for one condition you might worsen another. I couldn't tell you much about ODD even if it is a real disorder. My plate is full with Tourettes, OCD, Austism, and sensory issues thank you very much. And that is just son#1--who we can't medicate. Seems like a complicated furball and "the experts" (and we have seen some really highly regarded ones)all view the world through their specialty. The "conditions" are pretty arbitrary--maybe in 30 years we will have a better idea. Fat lotta good that will do me and my sons. And it certainly seems that you get more than the average amount in scouting. Oh boy do I know that! To get back to the original issue I will reiterate that the parent needs to help to smooth out the load--though I understand the parental temptation to get a break at the leaders expense. Momleader--is this Tiger, Wolf, or ? My son has sensory issues so some noises, smells, etc really, really irritate him. (Also seems to give him superhuman powers at tracking--he used to guess what his teachers ate for lunch by smelling them from 4 feet away--he was right 4 out 5 times)When he was young he used to get angry and uncontrolled. Now we know either (a) he can tough it out or (b)remove him from it or © mitigate it. So who the heck knows?

Well said. Ain't free speech a pain.

All normal kids go through a no stage; of course they get corrected. Basement, be thankful that you have a child that did respond to discipline and boundaries--it made your life infinitely simpler.

Which dates? For each rank or individual achievements? Our Troop we usually want something in writing from the old scoutmaster, a signed book, or a Troopmaster (or equivalent)print-out. But we have had a boy or two who "thought" they were a much higher rank than they actually are. On occasion a boy has been burned with a unit collapse but we will work pretty hard to clear things up.

Most of the radio is before my time but I used to enjoy listening to CBS Mystery Radio at night in the 70's as a kid. I had to turn it down when my mom came up to the door to see if I was really asleep. Occasionally it would really freak me out. My earliest TV theme song memory: "It's about time, it's about space, About two men in the strangest place. It's about time, it's about flight - Traveling faster than the speed of light." Not a very good show but I was 5.

I agree that the standards for being a volunteer is not the same for conviction. (obviously) I want to have a right to a fair trial and not a false conviction. I DO NOT have a right, no matter how much I want it, to be a Scouter. For example, If I am a grade-A jerk of a Scouter who is impatient, careless, and angry with the boys maybe I should be barred even though it is not a crime... If I am an adult who lusts for young boys even if I have never acted on it I probably shouldn't be a scouter either even if I haven't committed a crime.

I don't know enough to say that ODD is just being a bad kid. My oldest has multiple disabilities and can make one tear your hair out. But scouts has been great for him. I agree with eolesen that the parents shouldn't bail--they should be in the area just in case and better yet helping with somebody else's kids. That is what many of the "special needs" parents do since there own kids come with higher overhead they need to pitch in. I found my son was often better with another parent and I found it refreshing to work with boys who were easier to teach--it was a nice change of pace. At the very least they get a good benchmark of what average boys are like.

I like Chic-fil-A but do not eat it often as fast food night at the Turtle nest is on Sunday and they are closed. And I should not eat that stuff. But the one near my house is packed all the time--it is hard to get a parking space. My observations are my social circle view Chic-fil-A well in part because they are closed for the Sabbath. Walking the talk and all that. I think the company is getting unfairly beat up over the issue--the founder is entitled to his opinion. I was on vacation this last week and in several southern cities I visited the places were packed to overflowing with folks on a "buy-cott" supporting them. So I think they will do OK. The Dixie Chics got punished for making a brave/stupid comment at a time when it was unpopular. But I thought it was a bit unfair as well. But I guess they alienated their base--maybe their fans thought they we were being mocked?

Back to the original thread... BSA after the Rapture...they'll be mighty disappointed when all the Girl Scouts are gone!

Basement, I saw a polling presentation that most self-identified traditionalist "born-agains" don't walk the talk any better than american Catholics. Or are culture in general is spawning a lot of cafeteria behavior toward laws--folks hate speeders on their street but speed elsewhere, etc. But a fun discussion.

My wife had a similar experience. She was a key volunteer with a "Webelos Age" church youth group--was pretty responsible, did a lot of work, and was pretty quiet. Actually an unsung key person. When our youngest moved on to the next age group she decided she would volunteer there. (She usually works with the girls and gives our boys a lot of room) She got called in for an interview by the Youth Director 1/2 her age who basically told her, while they were short of volunteers, they really didn't think she was a good fit. Now she has run camps for kids, did all that stuff, and actually has a shy personality so I know she didn't knowingly offend somebody. Naturally it hurt her feelings. My impression was the youth director is pretty inexperienced in managing people and my wife was "black balled" for some reason by somebody. We talked and talked about it. It isn't fair but who just have to shake the dust from feet and move on. Sometimes it is just chemistry or they are really wrong or you are wrong and have a blind spot. Who knows?

I don't get the analogy at all...

I would say "great"! Then: (1)Talk to them about how they would see their role. (2)Explain they need training,YPT, other etc. (3)Talk about the Uniform. (4)Explain how our Troop functions, etc. (5)Assign them to "shadow" another ASM. I'd then see how they work out before letting them get to any "critical" areas--lots of different folks with different capabilities. But what do I know I am a ASM.

I always took off the Class A, announced "I am officially off duty" and that was that. My old Pack leader reminded us once you are a leader you need to remember boys will be influenced by the example you lead--no Tampa strip clubs for me! ;P

We had a Patrol want to come up with a "temp patch" award device for special service to the Patrol (some sort of feather-dongle thing)like saving a meal disaster, great leadership, bravery, etc. I've never seen them so excited. Mostly we reminded them that it was "unofficial" and that they needed a "fair" way to decide who to get it, no hazing, etc. Had to use a delicate hand since we did want to rain on their parade. Man the first couple guys seemed so proud, more than any COH Advancement I suppose because it came from the Patrol. By the way one lad got it who wasn't even in their Patrol but cheerfully carried a canoe when another guy got hurt.

In my experience in dealing with Catholic and Methodist churches (as well as few Jewish congregations)many middle and older aged clergy seem to be more "liberal" then there congregations. Some of the younger folks seem more conservative but not on all the traditional issues. So ya never know. In a Catholic Parish is the Arch Bishop breathing down your neck on this issue and how do the movers and shakers in your congregation feel about it. Will they pull donations? I've seen Priests "imposed" upon some parishes and others where there was tremendous pressure to remove an unpopular one. So that is why I expected a rather ragged response. I wouldn't really think the RC church would "ban" membership; I don't think they have done that is Europe have they?

BSA can get away with it because no one knows or cares about LFL. More folks have heard about Sea Scouts than LFL.

Hmmm my $0.2 if gay adults join. (1) LDS is organized enough and independent enough to spin off on it's own. (2) Catholic Units will be split. A top-down directive against scouting would kill some C.O.'s. I do not think the Catholic Church could organize it's own competitive organization. They might try. (3) United Methodist Churches. No blanket order either way but as a "big tent" denomination some C.O.'s would lose support especially in conservative areas. I think a minor net loss. (4) Schools. Greater support. This may lower some barriers for establishing some units. This would be the big upside. (5) General membership. I see a lot of conservative folks walking. Some new folks would join because they no longer have a moral objection but a lot less than you might think--how many objecting have kids of the proper age and still want the hassle and expense. There are other aspects to the program--uniforms, patriotism, quasi-military patrols that folks still have problems with. I see a sharp dip with some modest improvement afterwards. This all a WAG but it "feels" like such a move would lead to a 30-40% membership drop-off for a while and then a recovery. I think BSA could survive but would still be at least 24% smaller. So if you are National what do you do? How will this affect the money? Do you just re-tool the whole thing and make like GSUSA or maybe Venturing. Might as well let in girls at same time! If you are focused on numbers that is the direction we are headed. If not now but its coming. If you are focused on the traditional program than it is a different argument. I see this played out in churches all the time. Church A and B both are losing membership. Church A "lowers the requirements" attracts some new folks, grows, but really is hard to sustain. Church B has higher entry requirements (participation, commitment)focuses on the program, builds more slowly but grows and is more stable. I would argue that Church B will over time grow Church A. But it is a hard sell. I think BSA wants to be Church B but acts like Church A. It offends the group that doesn't like the exclusivity but keeps lowering standards (outdoor adventure) and turns off the "core folks" who thought they were getting Church B. Some of the negative aspects of both worlds. If I was a betting man...I'd say local option within 10 years. But I am thinking (typing) out loud. YIS

I guess I am a cafeteria uniformer. I am flexible on the pants --My boys are using non-BSA green tactical pants but they LOOK like the uniform--but the epaulette ribbons need to be the same color. Folks get confused enough as it is. So I think the guy was wrong. He (and the Adventure) patrol should have made up unique neckers, temp patch, or Patrol patch. Plenty to work with there.

I have cribbed much of Kudu's presentation for my old Pack and it was highly effective. A couple mom's blanched but the boys were always go-go. Then the pressure is on the adults to walk the talk and make sure there is adventure! We could not do at School Hours but at a PTA sponsored Movie and Pizza night. My old Pack was sponsored by the PTA and used the school for pack and some den meetings.

At first I didn't like it but upon further reflection it could be a good idea. The cub scout oath/boy scout oath switchover confuses lads anyway. It all seems kinda cobbled together.

And you mention this because Scouters shouldn't play with Trains?

Philosophically for me Sunday is church time and family time. We even have "family movie night" Sundays and make the kids do homework on Saturday so we just "re-create" on Sunday. But that is just us. I know groups who meet all sorts of different days--it is all really just an experiment to see what works. I do know a lot of folks have a lot of opinions on nights--there is never a perfect one.