SSScout

HWGA... Possible side threads (choose any that attract you): 1) The desire of the MAJORITY in a democracy to express a belief at the risk of insulting/offending a minority. 2) Requiring children to recite something that may or may not be in agreement with the parent's religious beliefs. (Q: Who would one expect NOT to recite the PoA?). Punishment? Teaching moment? 3) The tyranny of a minority opinion in controlling a philosophic situation if no "harm" is done. What really constitutes "harm"? 4) Perceived lack of patriotism/loyalty/rightness by someone who does not react "appropriately" to the *flag going by, *Star Spangled Banner being played, *PoA being requested, *name your own situation. 5) "Swearing" to tell the truth actually guarantees that the truth will be told. 6) Oh, that's enough. Choose your weapon.

Cast around and find someone (Park Ranger, UC, Amateur astronomer, local college prof, friend) who can talk about the stars and planets. Pray for a clear night at your campsite and set up a telescope to look at Jupiter or Saturn. Mars is kind of boring unless you have a REALLY powerful 'scope, but Saturn's rings or Jupiter's colors and moons are kinda cool in a good portable amateur 'scope. Tell stories about the stars, how the Big Bear up in the sky has a long tail but here on earth his tail is short (Iroquois). How to find the North Star (why is that important?). Stuff like that. An easy hour of sky watching is neat stuff for Cubs (stay up late!). Check the local Almanac to see when the next meteor shower is predicted, try to time your campout for that weekend. It is not adding to the Astronomy Belt Loop, as the defined requirements don't even ask the Cub to LOOK at the sky! But such a night out looking up can lead to the Belt Loop. You're already outside, and awake after the campfire, lead'em over to the meadow and LOOK UP!

Looking back, I went thru WB (which is better? Took...? Attended?...Earned?...) because 1) It was recommended to me by other Scouters. 2) It was promoted by Council literature as the "next step" in training, as the "graduate school" for Scouters, 3) I wanted a new challenge and some ego stroking recognition. 4) I was told it would look good on my resume (both Scout and personal), 5) My union would pay for it, 6) It sounded like fun, 7) I like an excuse to go camping with like minded folks, I am glad I took the WB because: 1) It was fun, 2) I did learn some things I didn't realize/know (yeah, I could catalog them if I tried), 3) It reinforced some organizational things I already knew from work and life experience, 4) It EMPOWERED me to go out and do some things I otherwise might not have done (ticket items not withstanding), 5) It leads to other conversations about Scouting, both with Scouty folks and others, 6) It was an excellent excuse to go camping. Thinking back, WB lacked: 1) I can't say I learned anything new about woodsy skills. We were frankly told that our WB was not for that purpose. It was expected that our woodsy skills were obtained elsewhere. 2) We practiced Patrol camping, and rotated the duties of Patrol Leader, APL, Scribe, cook, etc. among our Patrol. If we were "instructed" in Patrol method, it was by example of the Staff, not by overt teaching. 3) My greatest dissapointment came when I was told that my first ideas for "tickets" could not be approved. My proposals centered around Cub Scouts and the CSDC. At the time, I was an ASM and registered as such. But, since I was not a Cub leader, I could not do Cub things. So be it. Therefore, between sessions, I became a Unit Commissioner, took the training and became a UC. Now, I could "cross the line" and do Cub things and Boy things. And so I now do UC stuff. So my initial disappoinment actually gained me greater access to the greater world of Scouting. Ultimately, my tickets included both Cub stuff and Boy stuff. 4)The follow up and (?) encouragement could have been better, more active perhaps. My questions and inqueries were all addressed and answered, however. I will get my beads at the Troops CoH next month.

Ultimately doesn't matter. If one really does "trust in God", then the printing of the phrase on the US currency may be somewhat inspirational and reassuring. Render unto Caeser and all that. If one doesn't trust in God, then the phrase's inclusion on the currency shouldn't offend, only remind one of it's futilty. Tsk,tsk, isn't it sad. It certainly doesn't "establish" any given religion, one over another. From a penny's viewpoint, all religions are equally useless or necessary. Take your personal choice and gain or lose by the results. Trusting in the currency is another issue altogether. Now, there is a movement that is convinced that the mint is quietly trying to eeeeease the "IGWT" motto off coinage because it isn't terribly visible on the new pesidential dollar coin. Of course, it is engraved into the outer edge of the coin, so it is still there.

Amen, Beav. I, read, the, Bible, in, Meeting, and, when, moved, of, the, Spirit. I'm sure Joe (saint is an honorific, like to know how he came by it) is a Good Scout.

Oh. It's an "a", not an "x".

I made a copy of the article and, with the SM's permission, read some of it to the boys at the end of our last Troop meeting. Talked about then and now. Home made equipment. No cell phones. Talked about Patrol activities. About adult support of doing what the boys would like to do. Actually got a small conversation going with a couple of the boys and their dads. Hike the WHOLE AT? Three months? ummm... We'll see.

Advancement is recognized and awards made as the year progresses. Some boys and families do it quickly, some slower. B&G is for celebrating the fact that we are Cubs. It is a PARTY. Theme (if desired) , decorations (if possible), suitably respectful gathering and opening ( I was invited to a Pack B&G as their UC, and SURPRISE was asked to give the grace, which I did...), good food (catered or served if affordable, pot luck if desired), entertainment (OA danceteam, Scales and Tales, slide show, magician, Den skits, story teller,etc.), some small awards and acknowledgements ( but not the whole Pack. No one should be expected to have maxed out their rank by February), suitably respectful closing. All in 1 1/2 or 2 hrs max. Our Pack did advancement and awards at each Pack meeting. The last big thing was the April or May picnic, Web crossover was reserved for that Pack meeting. OA danceteam came and did a real flaming arrow ceremony, really wowed'em. Please try and convince the Pack leadership to NOT end the Cub year in February.

"the Scouts permit plaintiffs to make use of Camp Balboa and the Mission Bay Park Youth Aquatic Center" Yep. makes sense to me. If you want your son to participate in the CSDC at the park BSA leases for $4000. a week, your son must join the Cub Scouts. Otherwise, you (and your son) may use the rest of the park or come back when the camp is devoid of scouts. "but do not allow them to be members of their organization and participate in the activities conducted at the camps for members," Berzon wrote. I've known more than a couple of folks that know (for one reason or another) that they wouldn't fit in Scouting. Self selecting. This sounds like the same thing. The plantifs KNOW they wouldn't fit and are making damn sure everyone else knows it too. Nope. Gotta meet the membership requirements. Believe in God/higherpower/something and not make sexually overt comments to our youth members. Your sexual orientation is not of interest. If you don't mention it, it won't come up in conversation. Sexually promiscuous and inappropriately behaving adults are not welcome, be they homo, hetero, bi or any other persuasion. So it still sounds like " Since BSA controls parts of the park due to their up til now perfectly legal lease arrangement I can't use the park because I find the BSA offensive and therefore I can't come near the park to use it so it's the BSA's fault that I can't use it even tho no one has said I can't use it because I haen't asked to use it and they haven't responded to my non-existant request to use it." Now, if the REAL issue is that the BSA reserves too much of the park to warrant such a small lease fee, perhaps the "fair market " value would be a more appropriate debating topic. A balancing act. Social benefit versus market value versus public access versus private organization versus... Maybe the BSA could sublease it to the LDS or Catholic Charities or Boys Club or...ummm. That about right?

Haven't had this much fun since high school debate team... Evmori: exactly so. MlR: I find much to agree with you: Private discriminatory clubs should not be given exceptional exclusive use of public facilities. However, I don't see where anyone has proven that the BSA has denied anyone reasonable physical access or use of the facilities that (so far) have been legally leased to them. Can you, therfore, please quote us the part of the decision that defines the plantif's right to legal standing (ie, the legal basis for their right to sue the defendants) so as to show how they claim to have been injured? How the court sees (and agrees) their belief that they have indeed been injured? And therefore have a right to prove their injury before the court and claim recompense? How bad could chitlin making be, anyway?

No adult leaders. Six boys. 2000 miles. Only contact when they met the truck? One Truck followed 'em thru the whole trek? Wore out his LLBean shoes (hope he got'em resoled. Even back then, I think they were guarnteed for life). Maps? Compass? Wow. Eagle732: M4 Plywood backboard? I replaced my canvas back strap with a mesh nylon one, used it on thru my Scout career. Even screwed on hinges on the bottom and created a hip belt for it. Troop meeting tonite. Think I'll ask if I can read this to the boys for closing.(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Been busy elsewhere. Just read thru this thread. The problem is well known if not consciously acknowledged. Due to a gravitational anomaly and the third premise of the General Theory of Relativity and cotrary to general belief, there is really only 8 weekends in a calendar year. I can testify to this. A single example:: Back in April of 2008, I conferred with the Program Chair of our District. We perused the published Council and District and school calenders. We agreed on a date for an activity I was to lead in 2009. Nothing on that date to conflict. Nothing. Penned it in. After our "redistricting" in June, (see another thread), we have had several planning/scheduling meetings (called, I kid you not, 'calendering'). At last saturday morning's meeting, our new Program Chair (third in a year) listed all the claimed activities and organized them on the blackboard by genre (Cubs, training, etc.) and by date. Sonofagun, the weekend of my activity now had FIVE other activities listed. All worthy things to do. We then scratched our collective heads and realized that most of the listed activities were, indeed, collected around only 8 or 9 weekends.For Scout purposes, it was like the rest of the year didn't exist. Council? District? Old traditional "we've always done it then" stuff, out of 6 Old Districts, we now have ONE mega district. And 4 or 5 "sub areas"; so we may have 3 camporees in October, and 2 Klondike Derbies in January and multiple IOLS in April. This is looked on as a good thing in many respects, and egos need to be salved. Communicate better and you may want to be glad for the multiple opportunities Like the man said, ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce.

Hey Hal, so what does your Troop do with all the ribbons? Toss'em out? Stuff'em in a box in someones basement? Lose 'em? Stick'em to a display board and put'em up at CoH every so often? I know our 50 year old Troop doesn't have all of ours on the flag staff. And I truly don't know where they are.

Perhaps I am not fully cognizent of the conditions that led to this case and it's decision. Were the plantifs DENIED access to the "public facilities", either by gvmnt authorities or by agents of the BSA? Or did the plantifs decide PERSONALLY that they could not bear to utilize the "facilities" because of the taint of BSA leasing? Therein lies the inappropriateness of the Parks/bus analogy. My understanding is that the plantifs CHOSE not to even try to use the facilities. Ms Parks was DENIED use of the bus by the guvmnt and the bus authority. If the KKK owned and operated the bus system and Ms Parks and her family and friends were allowed full use of the bus system, we might not be having this conversation. If, however, Ms Parks refused to even attempt to board the KKK bus line, because she was offended by the KKK's avowed value system, then we still might not be having this conversation because the courts would have politely laughed at her attempt to sue the KKK bus system when she chose not to ride it. But she DID choose to ride it,and she WAS denied full access to it's service, and it did not matter WHO owned the bus system. So why does it matter WHO leased the facilities? How were the Plantifs denied access and use? ((image: driving a bus with a bed sheet over your head...))

Certainly the CG and AqC start out as "public". But if those areas are "leased", then what are the conditions of the lease? If the campground and aquatic center is "public" then they are not leased as a "private" area. Where is the problem? Does the path to the Campground or aquatic center pass THRU the BSA leased area (as they do in our mentioned park)? The legal decision as I read it does not hinge on what is PUBLIC versus PRIVATE, but on what the plaintifs view as being too distasteful to approach, ie Boy Scouts. The plaintifs self limit their approach because proximity to Boy Scouts is, to them, distasteful. It's as if a chitlin packing plant leased the campground and moved it's packing operations there in temporary tents and I decide the (ahem) aroma is too distasteful for me to approach in my daily jog. Do I reroute or do I sue the b*st*rds for limiting my activities? Can the guvmnt legally lease the campground, or did it? If the chitlin plant is a bad choice for leasing to, then those county commissioners ain't gonna get re-elected. But if the fed court rules that mere opinion is sufficient to show unreasonable limitation of use, well...

Geewillikers, MLR, if they leased it for abuck ayear or (in our case) $4000 a week, it is leased. If the Guvmnt later thinks a mistake was made, then let the lawyers duke it out and correct it. But if it is LEASED and use of the property CONTRACTED, then my last post stands as written. The Leasee has use of the property, as described in the appropriate documents (I did not see them attached). Therefore, ipso facto, in re proviso and ergo sum, the public needs to consider their limitations and access. Not whether they are offended merely by the organization's professed membership requirements. If the leasing agreement is written too broadly or too limiting, let someone decide that and fairly decide what, in a democratic society, is fair to the reasonable person. If the "public facilities" are legally leased for a "private leasee" then the problem should hinge on what is truly "public" and what is "private" as a result. If Mr. & Mrs. Hernandez "rent" a pavillion for their daughter's quinceanos, then you can't expect Ms Slovikosky to insist on sunbathing next to it. For the duration of the contract, it is NOT "public facilities", despite Ms Slovikosky's pronounced offense at all the hispanic brouhaha... Ha?(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Friend Leroy: I believe you have made my point. Ms Parks was seeking equal use of a public utility, tho it might 've been privately owned, still ostensively a public utility. The leasing of a service or property, be it privately or publicly owned allows the leasee (contract definitions allowing) particular use of that property or service. Restaurants are closed to the public when rented for private parties. Chartered buses are not a "public conveyance". When the BSA rents a piece of the park, the general public cannot use that part of the park. We apologize , but the Korean Baptist Church cannot just show up and expect to be able to set up a volley ball net where we already have an archery range. Mr. and Missus Smith may feel put out when they arrive and the pavillion they hoped would be available for their kids birthday party is full of Cub Scouts tying knots, but hey, we paid our fee and made the reservation months before. So the Rockville Russian Society comes and uses the boat house for their polka party, the Cubs loved the loud music. We use what we rented. Folks can still walk by and thru to other park areas. If the Washington Ethical Society calls and reserves the daytime park for a week and pays the $4,000. fee, we won't feel left out. Just our fault for not getting there first, us Scout folks will just have to pick a different week or park. WES: Have fun, play fair and don't eat too many chilli dogs. I still don't see where the decision is about lack of access to the park. It APPEARS to be about taking offense at who is using the park, not about lack of access. So, if this ruling is allowed to stand, and if I took umbrage at the ideas promulgated by the Washington Ethical Society (local athiest group. Nice people, by the way), and if the WES leased out a piece of the park, and if I decided the WES was so ubnoxious that I could not even walk by that part of the park wherein the WES held sway, and I was so inclined, I could SUE the WES for limiting my use of the park? And seek monetary compensation? Damages? Even when there was no other physical limitation of use? Have I got that all correct?

Goodgoogamooga... NCAC has a bunch of stuff on the drawing board, around the time of the NJambo. Mebbe pipe dreams, but these were announced at a recent commish meeting: Mini Jambo down at Goshen Scout res., Parade down Pennsylvania Ave. Super Camporee on the mall or Wash. Monument grounds. Some sort of Scout reunion of Scout personages. And some other stuff I didn't include in my notes. Was Obama a Scout?

Rosa Parks was not seeking to ride a privately chartered bus. She was seeking to use a publicly provided utility. Yes, my park is in Maryland, but the California court decision is a Federal Law Decision and will, therefor, provide precedent in all 50 states. Hence my query, duh. My reading of the provided sources indicates the court is allowing legal standing to the idea of injury thru non-injurious offense. Name calling is generally not a sueable offense, except in extreme cases, am I correct? Name calling to the point of inciting a riot, for instance. But if purely an idea or a quality of belonging (membership?) is found "offensive", then, by this ruling, in far less than extreme cases, the mere declaration of being "offended" can be grounds for seeking recompense (how much is an insult worth?). In my park, we go to lengths to assure the public has access to that part of the park that the CSDC is not actually using. And we make sure that the public is aware that our leased part of the park is brimming with overactive, loud Cub Scouts. And yes, the park people get complaints about "limiting use of OUR parks" from folks. But these complaints are no different than the ones they receive about the reserved use by Locheed Martin, or the County Rec Department, or the State Police (when they close off the park for rescue dog training. You wanna jog past a dozen German Shepards?), or the First XYZ Church Christian school Day Camp. All could be offensive to someone, but all have reserved the park in their turn and paid the appropriate fee. So the court case is certainly not really about Park Use. Is it?

For bucoo bucks, BSA leases a large section of the local park (5 picnic pavillions, the sport field, the "lower woods area", the "middle woods area" and the boat house pavillion for our CSDC. Upwards of 200 Cub Scouts swarm over the area, but the park people insist we cannot impede the publics use of the rest of the park. John and Mary Q. Public walk around and thru the camp all day. We have even had joggers run THRU the roped off archery range. So is this part of this decision?

It needs to be remembered that the US flag folding system is traditional and was created way after the creation of the flags design. The flags proportions just happen to lend themselves to this particular system. The scripts quoted above came after that. As is noted in the last reference, it's authorship is unknown and its religious references maybe inappropriate if used during an "official" government ceremony. I have seen/heard several scripts using the flag folding as a prompting means. Various purposes, and to varying success. I've even seen/heard one specific to Scouting purpose and history. Once, never again. It's almost as if folks can't stand a little respectful silence and have to find an "appropriate" way to fill that silence. I am reminded of the country western song by Tex Ritter and Wink Martindale (among others) called The Deck of Cards, where a soldier explains how the deck of playing cards reminds him of the Bible. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deck_Of_Cards If the folds remind you of important things, so be it. But understand that the folds were there first and the important things will be there without the folds. Lots of good discussion in this forum and webwise. Have fun.

Bizarre. Let us assume (for discussion sake) that the company that is the prime contractor for making nuclear warheads rents out a public park pavillion for a corporate picnic. If I find the creation of nuclear warheads offensive, would I then be able to SUE in court to prevent the company from utilizing a public park? Even tho I have not been prevented from using the park or (in my turn) reserving or renting the same pavillion? What is the limiting factor here?

Most excellent. Goes to show how important marketing and labeling is. The food is tasty because we say it is! Ha!

Go Hee Fat Choy... I hope y'all can see the parallels in the story I'm about to relate. Once upon a time, Cub son and I attended our first Parent /son overnight, ("Son and One") sponsored by the Council. It was held at an Izaac Walton League property. We were new and didn't know what to expect, but I had Scout experience and, I guess, knew what I WANTED to expect... Saturday morn thru sunday morn. Council provided lunch and dinner and breakfast and activities. Okay until Sat. night. Rain threatened. Along the way, I had made the acquaintance of some other Scout dads and moms. We expected a campfire, but none appeared to be in the offing. Found one of the (so I thought) organizers (turned out later he was a DE from a neighboring District. Didn't know what that was back then) and asked. He was sitting in the lodge, strumming a guitar. He said "I don't know. Not in charge of that". Well, who is? Don't know, strum, strum. I went to my Scout acquaintances and we talked. We walked thru camp and talked to others. Some found the campfire barrel, some found some firewood, some talked about skits and cheers and ghost stories. Two of us became MCs. We had a campfire. Later that night it poured down rain. Some of us slept in the lodge, some in cars. Some in properly pitched and sealed tents. We learned to work together rather than just trusting to the "powers that be". I still see occassionally one or two of those Scout moms and dads at other events. To my knowledge, nothing was ever said about the S&O campfire that was not "officially" held.

Pish-tush, clap-trap and jimmerjammer... Much ado about lots of stuff. She asked for help/advice and , as usual, got alot of the same from many knowledgeable folks. I have no doubt she will (1) get trained (in Feb.) (2) get lots of assistance (from the folks that recruuited her) (3) She will yell and scream if she doesn't get it (!). Sounds like her District?Council has the resources available even if they weren't tapped last year. She will tap them. Official requirements/guidelines/manuals not withstanding, there's nothing like personal experience as a guide (within OFFICIAL guidelines, of course). Listen to the Spirit of Scouting (whatever that is) and your heart and you'll not go too far wrong. YiS from a recent CSDC FAEE.