SSScout

Just got around to reading the wikihistory noted by Friend Merlyn. The ideals propounded in the Constitution often give some folks problems because they ALLOW folks to disagree . In effect, ENCOURAGE folks to disagree. Can one be a good citizen without promising to be loyal to a piece of colorful cloth? I say yes. I also say that unless the IDEALS that that piece of cloth represent and are supposed to remind us of are not remembered, then no promise, required or not, will help. It is the IDEALS we should be teaching, not abject unthinking kneebending. Here's where Scouting is important and can be a leader. Non -violence not withstanding, I actually like the wording of the Soldiers Pledge, for what it says. I am reminded of the old church elder who was asked which translation of the Bible he favored, as the church was about to present their third graders with Bibles for their Sunday School classes. He responded that "If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it ought to be good enough for us".. Just because some folks think a PoA should be required, doesn't make it necessary or appropriate. To paraphrase a Quaker founder, "Thee should say it as long as thy canst. "

This is a subject I always have a problem with , not the least reason being my faith as a Quaker. I teach flag courtesy at CSDC. I always ask the boys, "who might not say the PoA?" I get interesting answers: "A terrorist!" "a traitor!" " Somebody ignorant about america!" The older boys usually come up with the good answers: " Maybe they are from a foreign country" "Maybe they aren't a USA citizen" "It might be against their religion". And I leave them with the idea that if they see someone not doing the PoA, perhaps afterward, they can politely ask them about that and they might have a really interesting conversation. I have never been approached by any of the adult Den Walkers about this. The PoA has a strange history, the original being written by a Socialist, using a salute that the Nazi's appropriated so that the American PoA salute had to be changed. The PoA was amended twice for different reasons (google it), but there are still problems with it to my mind. 1) The PoA borders on idolatry. You are promising to be loyal to a piece of cloth, symbol of our nation though it be. 2) It is, after all, a loyalty oath. Pledge, promise, you are promising to be loyal to a nation. This may or may not be a good thing, as such promises are, after all, only as good as the person making them. Hence the Quaker testimony about truth telling. See Mathew 5:33 and James5:12. One is either a good citizen or one is not. Saying you will be doesn't make it happen. Loyalty oaths/promises are hardly ever a good thing when made to Objects. Promises to ideals are another thing. Look at the BSA promise or the 4H promise.... 2A) Even our military do not promise loyalty to the nation, rather to the Constitution ( Look it up.), but then the Constitution defines what our nation is, does it not? 3) "Under God" is a desirable ideal, but, again, saying it doesn't make it so. Whose God? This nation has lots of proof indicating a lack of being "under God" .4) I believe I would rather my children learn the Declaration of independance and Constitution and the Gettysburg Address. The PoA just complicates things. 5) "Not saying it shows a lack of respect for our country and its flag". Well, no. The PoA was not around for the first 150 plus years of our nations existance, patriotism and love of country can be expressed in many other, perhaps more meaningful ways. 6) I love the Cubs (and older Scouts!) responses when we start talking about the US flag. "What should you do if the flag falls on the ground and gets dirty?" "BURN IT!!" "Retire it!" no, let's wash it, dry it and fly it again! Well, how about when it finally gets worn and torn and doesn't really look good? "THEN we BURN IT!!!" Okay, let's talk about a good retirement ceremony.... Does the US flag ever STOP being a US flag? "Yeah! When we BURN it!!" Okay, let's talk about how the flag has changed through the years... and, no, it never stops being a US flag. Thirteen stars is a good as 50.

Can't start new thread, and sometimes can't respond to old ones. What the heck does ""The string you entered for the image verification did not match what was displayed."" mean? This is the response I got when I tried to "Post Reply" to the recent PoA flag thread.....

Less than 2 weeks to go, and they email me that my medical form is "missing or incomplete" and that I should re-do the online part AND make sure I bring a cprinted copy of EVERYTHING with me for check in. Did all this back in February and March. . *sigh*

First, I hope he comes back to read these. AND I hope he comes back to participate in these forums as he is able. Ditto all the above. If you are a worthy subject for charity (and that's what this is, a request for charity), you might apply to your local faith congregation, your local Lions Club or American Legion, Kiwanis, etc. They all have been known to help local kids attend worthy activities such as building ministries, schools, camps.... Check with your mom and dad, maybe THEY can LOAN you some money... I paid mine back when I was older and able for all they did for me. I painted their house, fixed heir cars, took'em places when they were old and feeble, invited them to my wedding, stuff like that. Service clubs and churches often look at such "grants" as investments in a young fellows future, expecting it will "pay off" some time in the future. Hope yours will. Your future that is, pay off....

Just received my $800. duffle. Very nice, commodious and ... let's see, now, there will be , ummmm, 3,000 of these at the Jamboree? Think I'll paint mine green and purple....

Just received my $800. duffle. Very nice, commodious and ... let's see, now, there will be , ummmm, 3,000 of these at the Jamboree? Think I'll paint mine green and purple....

Oh, that's easy. The picture is of MOM'S sleeve. She can't be a Patrol member, so she get's the patch to wear on HER uni (does't every "Scout Mom" wear a uniform??), not the Scout. No inspection problem.

Email just doesn't work for some folks. A phone call MIGHT work, if the conversation is diplomatic , nonaccusatory and sympathetic. After all, you do not neccessarily know the family dynamic at work there unless it is shared with you. A written letter , hand delivered, that details the need for HELP in the Scout activities, the need for DUES to be paid up for attendance to happen; the reality that if the boy enjoys the Cub experience, if the parent sees the benefit, then the parent needs to communicate and HELP the boy get to the activities. Such a letter should, ideally, be delivered INTO THE HAND of the parent early in the Scouting year, to ALL the parents in the Pack/Den, so no favoritism can be claimed. Schedules need to be defined and kept. Make no promises (threats?) unless you intend to abide by and keep them. "It's for the kids"

.SURPRISE!! BSA is religious but not a religion. In our Council there are Christian Scouts, Muslim Scouts, whole troops and packs that are purely Jewish, we had a Hindu family in my home Troop awhile back, Mormon Scouts, Troops that will reject your application if you are not Catholic (Roman variety), Viet Namese Buddhist, Cambodian Buddhist, Packs open to any male human under the age of 10, I could go on. "Non-sectarian" implies a desire to not ay attention to the avowed faith (or lack there of) of a person. The BSA gets itself in trouble when it starts trying to act as tho it is of a particular type of faith, but being tolerant of "all those other kinds". Sikhs wear turbans and carrry a knife in formal affairs. Devout Jews wear yamulkas or a hat otherwise. Quakers used to wear hats in Meeting but took them off when they stood to give a Spirit led message. US military require troops to remove cover when inside, unless they are in a formal color guard. Ritual is important in most every religion, and that seems to be the biggest divider of faiths, the rituals that define the religion. If the BSA were truly "non-sectarian", National wouldn't be so snippy about defining membership requirements , but be more encouraging about BEING a member. It is, after all, the Scout Promise and Scout Law that defines us, and not much else. The uniform is in many respects optional. Almost any sort of "organization" can sponsor a Scout unit, within certain parameters. Any responsible adult can be a Scouter. We will train you. The most important things about being a Scout Leader is, I think, first to be able to trust the boys, and second to be able to enjoy Scouting for what it is. The Scout Skills we encourage in the earning of the ranks ,I think, defines Scouting more than the religious component. It is not necessary to be of any one faith. Any faith can enjoy and benefit from Scouting. I still like William Penn's thought about our variety of faiths : " . The Humble, Meek, Merciful, Just, Pious and Devout Souls, are everywhere of one Religion; and when Death has taken off the Mask, they will know one another, tho' the divers Liveries they wear here make them Strangers."

Four hundred!! Good sized camp! I have a LARGE old American flag, 15 x 25. I go to camporees and ask for help, does anyone know how to properly fold a flag? When I get a Patrol to volunteer, I have them drag the flag out of its box and as a team, fold it up in the "cocked hat".. It takes considerable team work and direction from (hopefully) the PL or SPL to do it neatly, and not drag it on the ground!

Latest posts, paginations.... First, sign in. Bring up a thread. Click on "filter". Click on "Today". DO NOT click outside the box and therefore close that window. Note that a new page comes up, reflecting whatever has appeared in the past 24 hours (or so). Click on "all time" and make sure other choices remain "all" and "all". Hit ENTER. You should see the page numbers reflect "1" and the total recorded. Erase the "1", enter the number of the page you want to start on (10, 12, whatever), and hit "enter" . Presto! All the pages are available, by entering the number. Oh, the achey finger, all that pushing and poking...

In the few corporate shareholder meetings I have attended, the Board always presents their Resolutions, expecting the shareholders to vote "yea" because the Board sees the share holders as seeing the Board as the trusted leaders that Know More Than We Do. When the Shareholders present other resolutions to change policy or corporate direction, the Board inevitably "recommends a NO vote on the following shareholder proposals". So it is here. Our six figure income leaders (remember, this is a non-profit organization) are trying to balance the folks that believe certain behaviors are sinful with the folks that believe we are all God's children and "God don't make no mistakes" as the old Baptist minister said, with the big corporate donors, with the folks that just want to go camping and listen to the wind in the trees (remember Baden-Powell's "church of nature " comment?) with the idea that our children, by and large, don't even give the sexuality issue a second thought. And, still, we are driven, as a species , to perpetuate and "go forth and multiply". Homosexual behavior doesn't do that , directly, hence is seen by some as sort of counterproductive. Doesn't mean you can't be a good dad or mom if your partner is of the same gender. I agree that the CO have always had the right (by contract!) to approve or deny the leaders, for whatever reason, of their units. But have you ever heard of a CO denying the membership of an adulterous hetero? There have been cases where the leadership was denied due to "femaleness" and "skin hue", and "wrong religion", yes? For the BSA to change the "official" membership policy to admit the possibility of the moral rectitude of homosexual inclined folks would be a courageous step (a Scout is Brave) in the face of other beliefs. Sinful behavior is defined by religion, not Law. What is counterproductive in a cooperative, peaceful society is declared unlawful and controlled thereby by rewards and punishments. Sin is punished by God (vengeance is mine, sayeth who?), re-read the book of Job . If Christ is my role model, how else can I behave but allow my brother (and sister?) the benefit of the doubt , and judge them not by how they are, but by their behavior toward their fellow human?

I just noticed something. I think this was mentioned some time ago, but since this new bulletin is kind of experimental, here goes. Note the time stamp in the upper left corner of the post box. I am clicking "post at 10:58pm, local time click

Well, that changed the direction of this thread. The Reverent issue is already decided. If the Scout is required (by his own integrity) to "do his duty to God", and we do not require what that duty is, then the Scout's own conscience will be the guide. If he (and /or his family: see BP's classic comment about religion) decides that his duty is to not "believe" in a higher power, or make ritual thereof, then we have done OUR duty toward the Scout. BP did note that Scouting was "practical" Christianity, much to the consternation of some of his time's Church of England's leaders. He tried to discuss the "church of nature", but some folks didn't want to hear that, either. And BSA became a non-Christian organization. Come to think of it, the Brit Scout Org has decided not to make religion an issue. Can morality be legislated? Another degression on the horizon.... If the Scout's duty is defined by his and/or his family's faith/church/temple/mosque, then that is his business, not ours. If his duty is defined by his own conscience, then one of two things should happen: Either 1) the Scout will self select to remain in Scouting because he sees gain in it, or 2) he will leave Scouting, because he sees a conflict of interest/belief, a hypocracy that he cannot resolve. It should not be up to a Scout leader to declare that the Scout does not belong in Scouting UNLESS his BEHAVIOR shows a betrayal of his Scout promise or non-adherance to the Scout Law. If his behavior or language (that is a behavior, yes?) is such that the Scout Leader has to point out to the Scout a certain , umm, non-conformity (?), then , yeah, there might be a problem. But need it be a "religious" problem?

I have problems here, LMS2227. 1) There can't possibly be any Revolutionary War Veterans around, leastwise not from OUR Revolutionary War. I would favor choosing a different name for the group, one that truly reflects who you are, not who you wish you were. Maybe " Revolutionary War Remembered". The website mentioned does make a worthy pitch for their purpose, tho. 2) If the "appleseed" moniker refers to Johnny Appleseed, I would mention that John Chapman was a itinerant orchardist, a preacher for the Swedeborgian church and a "practical" pacifist. I doubt if he ever carried a gun, tho his father certainly did. . 3) I second Deaf Scouter's discription of the BSA Shooting Sports curriculum. As indicated, there is no single "firearms" badge. It would be good for the RWVA to note the need to meet BSA's credentials so they can, indeed , help the Scout learn the benefits of SAFE firearm use and earn his badges, as appropriate. Oh, and in case my comments were taken the wrong way, Welcome to the virtual cracker barrel, LMS2227! Have a sitdown and enjoy the banter....

"That Friend speaks my mind". I've come to think that , contrary to the usual saying that "it's the company a man keeps" that says alot about him, so much as "It's the company that keeps HIM," that says alot about the man. "he has gone home"

And Jennifer's Council is in, ummm Mumbai, Chernobyl, Tashkent, or Chongqing, perhaps?

The only wqy to fight this kind of thing is three fold. You have begun the first. Make folks aware of the politics. The second is to get ahold of the CORs, who are the "owners" of the council, they officially vote in or out the leadership. Get ahold of the corporate documents (public access thru the state) and make yourself knowledgeable. The third is to involve the press. There is a story here, and some local reporter is dieing to write it. Google Owasippee in the Chicago Area Council for precedent. And on these pages( if they will work) Follow the money. Who gets the credit for (on paper) making your Council "solvent"? Who retains their six figure salalry? Who would want to buy the camp? In what area? Into what would it become? Would the county zoning board like to hearabout this early on? Once a camp is turned into McMansions, or condos or lake front resort , it will never see a hawk or owl hoot or the tramp of size 6 boots again....

American Labor Merit Badge counselors, take note!!

Still can't acccess theissues/program/Jamboree forum.. So here goes: Have you noticed the SubCamps are all named after Westbygod Virginia Coal Mines? Except that the one in that WB favorite movie, "October Sky" is missing. I think we have a teachable moment here.... John L. Lewis, please call your office!

Not I. Did not receive the VotS survey, but Council emailed to ask I look for it. I went to the National Site and gave a page full to the survey linked on the Home page there.

As you might notice, I have just gone thru the whole list of threads and here is what I found: * The "post reply" button at the top of the stack and the "post reply" button at the bottom mean and do two different things. Might want to rename the top one. Maybe "Write Reply"??? *The forums without my "tests" could not be replied to from my present computer, and some of them not from my home computer, either. * "Patch Trading"... the reply dissapeared when top "reply" button was hit, when the bottom/top button was hit, and when the bottom/bottom button was hit. Start over, and the same result. *Still can't "post reply" on I&P Jamboree subforum, from top or bottom. * Hitting the top "PR" button yields a write window, and a seperate "PR" bottom button. They are not the same as the "PR" button at the bottom of the whole page, and may not yield a posted comment. Hope that helps our virtual cracker barrel caterers.

Test testjambo.

Farewell test test.