SR540Beaver

My dad was a WWII vet Marine. I know a good number of Marines. I can't fathom a Marine not understanding the uniform method in scouting and not being willing to set the example.

We have an ASM who has never bought scout pants. Every other registered leader in the troop is fully uniformed. He can afford them. I assume he just doesn't like any of the various styles. His son crossed over from Webelos and is now 17, so that is how long he has gone without buying scout pants. Coincidently, his son has never worn any either. That being said, he is a good ASM ans while we would like for him to be uniformed, he is an adult who can make his own decisions regardless of any logic or reasoning we use. Oh yeah, he is fully trained for his position and he has signed up for WB and backed out about three times now. We quit bugging him about that too.

Speaking of "adult" replies.... Basement: "I have come to the conclusion that those who have the mountaintop experience are very shallow people who have never experienced adversity or difficulty......" Oh really? Seriously? Like OGE said, we are all very well aware of your disdain for WB and all very well aware that your experience is not typical. Just because YOU didn't have a mountaintop experience doesn't make everyone else "shallow". That's insulting and uncalled for. I personally know two men who will tell you how WB was a life changing experience for them. One is a homicide detective and the other is a business owner. In fact, the business owner closed his previous business and started a new business because of the servant leadership lessons he learned at WB. Both had tons of management seminar experiences, but WB was a different experience for them. I'm honestly sorry that you didn't get to experience what so many others have. Does everyone experience a life changing experience? No. Does WB make a difference for most people who attend? Yes. Did it for you? No. Because you had a bad experience and thousands of other people didn't, should you pooh pooh the course to everyone you meet? No. Question, did every participant on your course feel the same way about it that you did? That would be interesting to know.

Eamonn, Wow, $225 for your CDC? I attended the CDC for the Southern Region at BSA HQ in Irving this past November for $75. Of course, it cost gas from Oklahoma and hotel expense. But those of us going carpooled and doubled up in the hotel, so that cut costs drastically. And to those who assume someone honored with being asked to be a CD has things like the CDC paid for.....NO, not in many councils. Most councils don't have fat bank accounts where they just write checks for this or that. I remember back in 2004 when we were preparing for the 2005 Jamboree and we had a number of boys who were falling behind on payments. The council wouldn't/couldn't afford the postage to send out past due notices. It became a function of the Jambo SM to play collector.

TwoCub, I'm going to disagree with you on a few things. I've been an ASM for new scouts and had 3 TG's I worked with. I am currently an OA Chapter Adviser and have 5 youth officers. Kids hate email. They refuse to use it unless forced. It is my preferred method of communication because it is quick and easy and I can load it with as much information and attachments as needed. My point to them is that one of these days they will have a job. That job will most likely come with an email address and whether they like it or not, they will have to use it just like they will have to get up and show up un time for work. It isn't optional. This is training for adulthood. Get used to it, deal with it. They grumble and groan. That being said, I do understand they don't like it, so I try to meet them halfway and text them when it is something smaller and is less "broadcast" in nature. Even then, I don't get many immediate responses. In a position of ledaership, I make checking and responding to email as part of their job duties. Now all of that being said, I'm finding email to be a lousy resource for getting people to get involved. I've sent out informational emails on this, that and the other thing and I get almost no response from youth or adult alike. With almost 200 members in my chapter, it is not very practical to call each one of them individually and engage them in conversation. That is probably the most effective way, but not the most practical way. As I said, I expect my guys to use email. For everyone else, I try to adopt a variety of methods to reach them.

hocountry, welcome to scouting and servant leadership. That is indeed how it works. I've staffed four WB courses and served as ASM on two Jambos and I took vacation time and paid my way just like the participants. If you were sending your son to Jambo and the cost was $3000 per person (our cost in 2010), how would you feel when you found out the the cost for the four adults in your son's troop was split between the 36 youth in the troop. All of a sudden, your son's cost is $3,333 instead of $3,000. Keep in mind, even though we are transporting 36 kids halfway across the nation by plane and bus and riding herd on them, we too are getting to tour DC and participate in the same things the boys are. WB staff usually has to pay to cover their food as adding the staff cost to the participants would make it even harder for them to pay......and we want as many people to attend as possible. It isn't like we don't know this coming in and then find out. No one has to do it if they don't want to.....but they miss out on a great opportunity.

I've had a fair number of DE's in my scouting career. Most are gone. The one good one I had is now Council Progran Director. My experience is that most DE's are far to involved in trying to raise funds and membership numbers to actually know what is going on around them. We usually educate the DE's, instead of the other way around. 10 to 15% is a more customary number. 60%, either he doesn't know what he is talking about or you heard him wrong or your council is engaged in highway robbery.

BasementDweller, A 60% profit on WB? How much do your courses cost? Our council went from $185 to $200 a year or two ago and we have a really tough time budgeting on that amount. We've actually cut some of the traditional WB bling things out to stay within budget. With your 60% figure and my council's $200 price tag, that means the council is keeping $120 and the course is operating on $80. That doesn't even cover food costs in our council.

There is no one best modern way to communicate. Different people....young or old.....respond to different forms of communication. As an OA Chapter Adviser, I prefer to communicate directly with my youth thru email. Why? Because I set at a desk all day with email open in front of me the whole time communicating with vedors, coworkers and customers. I have an numerous email distribution lists set up and I simply start typing in the first few letters of the name of the list and it pops in automatically. Then I type my message, hit send and it's gone. Quick and easy. Every single one of my boys hattttttes reading email. They want me to text them. I explain that I can send an email to a hundred people in what is sometimes a matter of seconds to just a couple of minutes. To text, I have to type my message with two thumbs on a phone smaller than a deck of cards and then I have to mentally think thru a list of people to add so I can send it. The one problem I have when I do text is getting no response. Did you read it? Is your phone dead? Are you grounded from the phone? A simple OK will do. Even just a K. We also have a facebook page and website for our chapter. I've found that some boys are power facebook users and others won't touch it with a ten foot pole. I'm not sure any of them ever go to the website, although I subscribed all of them so when there is an update, they get an email......which they don't read. A few use twitter, but most don't. Our new youth leadership in the Loge is addressing this at the Lodge level. They too realize that they have to have a variety of communication methods in the hopes to get a message out to the wide variety of technology users. They are doing away with a printed newsletter. Actually, they did away with that a few years back in favor of a PDF. Instead of a PDF, they are moving to an enewsletter thru email, website, facebook and twitter. They have a facebook and twitter presence and a website. Two new things they are trying is some robo-call software to send out very short phone messages and twitters fast follow feature. Fast follow does not require a person to have a twitter account. The lodge has an account and if you text "follow ladgetwitteraccountname" to 40404, you subscribe to see any updates the lodge posts to twitter. I've actually been thinking about using this at the chapter level for all of those guys who want texts instead of email. The best form of communication is still talking to each other, but kids don't seem to realize that mobile phones are "phones" instead of texting devices. Actually talking to each other requires "time" and we have become an impatient society. So, you use a variety of methods that will appeal to a variety of people.

I'm an NYLT back up course director for our summer course and the course director for our fall course. I attended the Course Director's Conference back in November. The basic rule of thumb was that those over 18 needed to take WB instead of NYLT. Within NYLT, the rule of thumb is you don't put 16 or 17 year olds in tents with 13 year olds. My personal belief is that while I think it is fine to mix and match programs with one adult WB course, they should have left NYLT strictly as a Boy Scout specific course instead of including Venturing. I understand the idea that it is more efficient, but the target audiences between the adults and youth are different enough that I think they should have left it as is. But they didn't and it is what it is. We ran our first coed coursr last fall and there actually were some parents who didn't like the idea of their youth participant and/or youth staff being in a coed week long experience. It worked out fine as you just youth Venturing YP policies for NYLT. Now, all that being said......I wish (I posted this in another thread a few months back) BSA would address the age issue. Here is what I'm talking about. A Boy Scout is considered an adult at 18 and therefore can't do NYLT but would need to take WB. However, a Ventuerer is considered a youth until 21, so should they be attending WB and tenting with adults or should they attend NYLT? The rule of thumb is already that an 18 year old should go to WB, but it creates YP issues. Then you throw OA into the mix where they are considered youth to 21 and it gets just as confusing. On a campout with his troop, an 18 year old is an adult ASM and tents with the adults. On an OA outing, he is considered a youth and has to tent with the youth....who he is forbidden to tent with on a troop campout. Does BSA not see the conflicts here? Not to highjack the thread, but should we adopt the British Scouting model to address all of these gender and age related issues? BTW, that was what the thread from a few years ago was addressing, so you can go find that one if you want to continue that discussion.

Most 18 year olds who have been camping every month and summer camp most years since they were 11, plus possibly having done high adventure and staffing camp along with earning Eagle, kind of balk at having to go learn how to teach boys Tenderfoot thru 1st Class requirements. They've been doing that for at least 5 years. This is where you need a "test out" feature since many of these guys could teach an IOLS course. SM Specific is a whole other matter. They set thru lectures at college and they don't want to drive home and blow a Saturday listening to someone drone on and on for 6 hours. College Reserve is a very good thing.

BDPT00, I just checked the Jambo website and stand corrected. I'd have to dig to find it, but some early literature we had listed the age for 3rd ASM up to 25. I remember this because we assumed that the increase from 21 to 25 was to broaden the pool just as they have reduced the price to $425 as an enticement. Also, "youth" up to 21 could attend as participants thru Crews, so it made sense to up the age pool for 3rd SM. For the past two Jamborees, our council has had 3 Jambo troops. Except for one young man who went in 2010 as a 3rd ASM, we have had to fill those spots with men in the 40's and 50's as we just couldn't get the college aged kids interested. Most were working during the summer to help pay for college and couldn't afford the time or money to go. Dropping the price in half and upping the age would help combat that, but you are correct, the age is 21.

Papa, What Eagle92 said. My son Eagled in December 2010 and aged out in February 2011. He is now living on campus at college about 80 miles away. He comes home maybe one weekend a month. He wants to maintain his scouting registration, but he can't be active in the troop anymore. Yes, he can be registered as an ASM, but it would be in name only and with JTE, leaders must be trained for their position. Rather than run off these guys, the Unit College Reserve allows them to maintain their registration. It's a good thing. As an OA Chapter Adviser, I like having these guys still be registered so I can try to draw them in when they are at home on occasion. If they weren't registered, I couldn't do that.

GetOutdoors, Your mileage may vary from council to council. Because of my experience as an ASM at the 2005 and 2010 Jamborees, I was asked to sit on the 2013 Jambo committee. Let me address the differences between our "experiences" one by one. 1) You have to be "connected" and part of the adult scouting group, You know, the guys you see at all the adult functions but rarely see them working with youth. Response: We have 4 troops and 2 crews going to Jambo. Not including the 3rd ASM who should be between 18 and 25, we needed 4 SM's, 8 ASM's, 2 CA's and 2 ACA's. That is 16 adult leaders. The application was placed on the council website and sent out in district newsletters along with a list of qualifications we were looking for in each position. Anyone was welcome to apply. We sat aside two different dates to do interviews with the applicants. I would consider myself what you refer to as one of those "connected" guys. I can assure you that of the 25 people who applied, I might have known 4 of them. The others I had never seen or heard of. 2) It's seems that it's very helpful to be part of the woodbadge training staff group. Response: Only 2 of the 25 applicants had served on a WB staff. The other 23 had been to WB as that was one of the requirements. 3) Quite a few adults that went last time were not ACTIVE SM's in troops, most were "retired" and sat on district boards Response: Every adult leader picked when I went in 2005 and 2010 and the leaders we selected for 2013 are current active unit leaders. 4) Experience and ability to work well with youth is not required, you just have to have been around and impressed the right people. Response: Abilty to work with youth was the absolute priority item we used in making our selections. A lot of people look good on paper, but it didn't take but about 5 minutes of interviewing them to tell if they had the personality and attitude to work with kids or not. It was the winning factor in a number of our decisions. In fact, we even selected a few ASM's over SM's to be the Jambo SM because they were far more dynamic and we felt they would appeal more to the boys. This may sound very harsh but it is what it is. We unfortunatly work within an organization that is controled by a "select" group. Response: Depends on the council. Our "select" group works very hard to be inclusive and give equal access to all and continue to bring new blood into the mix.

So Beavah, are you saying that if an SM refused to sign a boy's Eagle project because he failed to follow the SM's personal guideline of having to raise the funds with only a nominal amount from parents, the boy would have no recourse? He couldn't appeal to district and/or council? That nobody "higher up" cares? What happens when the DAC or CAC tells the SM that he can't make up his own rules for advancement? I understand what you are getting at. Each troop and SM has their own "flavor" and culture. For instance, the troop I served had "Assistant Scoutmaster Conferences" before the SC. It was our SM's rule outside the rules. That didn't make it right and the boys had to endure it because that was what our SM required. The ASM conference was basically a retesting because our SM wasn't going to have boys in his troop like all of those other boys in troops who couldn't tie a knot or describe the parts of the Scout badge. I can tell you that as an ASM who was charged with doing these conferences, I was pretty darn liberal in my "grading". Since my son earned Eagle in 2010 and aged out in 2011, the SM has added a mock Eagle BOR. I understand his desire to help boys make it thru the EBOR without hiccups, but in our troop, it isn't optional, you have to do it or you don't get your paperwork signed. Sorry, but that is BS. All of us in the troop know that all a family has to do is take it to the district or council if they wanted to and the SM would be overruled. You can have your own unique troop culture, but you don't get your own set of advancement rules.

Beavah: "I don't think "enforcement" is the issue, eh? We're about growing kids, not about "enforcing" this, that, and the other thing. Most folks will follow the guidance given 'em, because they're part of a community where that guidance is the norm." You are correct. People often take the guidance given without questioning whether it is correct or not. That of course is how the many great scouting rule myths we talk about on here get started. Go back and read Thomas' post. He said that the other troop had checked with the council on whether it was OK for a parent to fund the whole project and the council said they had no problem with it. The reason they don't have a problem with it is because there is nothing in the Eagle Project book that says a parent can only make a nominal contribution. What the book does do is lay out some rules for when you do raise funds, but it doesn't require you to raise funds. Would I prefer to see a boy raise the money for his project? Of course I would. There are many good lessons to learn from it......but he should have been learning those lessons as far back as Tiger when he was selling popcorn. All I'm saying is that it isn't a "rule" and while an SM might have his own personal ideas about it, that is all they are, personal ideas. How many discussions have we had here about what makes a REAL Eagle Scout? Matters of perception.

Thomas, What do you do when a parent decides to fund a project fully against your "guideline"? You're adding a requirement that is not part of the Eagle rank. I'm not saying that I don't want to see a boy find funding for his project. While we could have funded our son's $600 project, we had him fundraise, put some of his own money in from his job and then we topped it off. I just don't know how you can enforce telling a parent how much they can give towards their son's project.

Papadaddy, can you show us any documentation that states a boy must raise funds for his Eagle project? I'm unaware of any unless it just happened. An Eagle project is a service project, not a fundraising and service project. That being said, if a boy needs to raise funds, there are rules that apply, but it is not a required part of the Eagle project.

I'm not thrilled with the slate of candidates. That being said, any of them would be head and shoulders above the disaster in chief we currently have. I believe what he has "accomplished" can be reversed if he isn't relected. Whether we can survive an additional 4 years of him is doubtful.

rhol, What Trev said! Let me address two different issues. First, I'm a type 1 diabetic and went to the 2005 and 2010 Jambo as an ASM. Of course, I'm a 54 years old who found out I was diabetic when I was 17, so I kind of have the whole thing unnder my belt. As a father, I understand your concerns about your son. That being said, part of scouts is letting them spread their wings and stepping back. He needs to learn to control his diabetes on his own. Your Jambo leadership has accepted responsibility for taking any kid who has paid the fee. That means ADD, celiac, diabetic, allergies, etc. If your council is anything like mine, the Jambo committee which includes your leadership will be meeting monthly to prepare for every possibility and contingency. One of the things they have to do is put together an emergency preparedness plan of medical facilities along their travel route. At the Jambo, medical staff (real life doctors and nurses) are a stones throw away and they are open 24/7. The medical facilities will store your sons excess supplies and insulin for him. We had a kid with lots of food allergies and he was allowed to bring along a big box of acceptable foods to supplement what he could eat on the Jambo menu. Start working with him now to become more responsible for his care and let him go. He'll do fine. Second, I sit on my council's 2013 Jambo committee. I can't speak for your council, but I can give you some insight on how we do things. We spread the word that we were taking applications for Jambo leadership. In that communication, we listed a number of qualifications we were seeking, gave a deadline and a date that interviews would be held. Obviously, we received more applications than we had spots open, meaning that some were going to be told yes and some were going to be told no. The vast majority of the applicants included in their application that they would like to go because their son is going. Honestly, that didn't really mean anything to us. Each troop has 36 boys going and there can't be 36 parents per troop. We looked at training, but experience was more important. We looked at experience, but personality was more important. Just as an interview for any job, we could tell within a minute or two of how the person carried themselves and the image they projected whether they were a candidate or not. Trust me, we had some highly successful businessmen who are significant supporters of the council who were turned down because we didn't feel they were right for the job. The most important factor in making our selections was were they within BMI (and a judgement call on whether we thought they could reach it) and how we felt they would interact with the boys. Are they fun or stern disciplinarians? Are they easy going or easily excitable? Are they in it for the boys or do they just want to go to a Jambo for the notch on their belt. There was no good old boys club going on. About half the committee is made up of former Jambo leaders because we have been to a Jambo, know what to expect and are needed to provide continuity and not reinvent the whell every four years. If any of us wanted to go again, we had to fill out an application like anyone else. I can tell you that none of us did because one of our goals was to provide these desired roles to as many people as possible. Why you were not picked, I don't know. Being in the position of those who make that decision, I ask that you give them the benefit of the doubt. It isn't an easy task and no one likes telling another scouter no. The good news, I have heard rumors that the Jambo staff isn't filling up as quickly as they thought. That means there are still staff positions available. Going on staff gives you the opportunity to be at the Jambo with your son and to got to experience the Jambo. You get a good amount of time off. The added benefit is you don't spend the next year going to Jambo committee meetings and Jambo troop meetings and it costs way less than going as a leader. You should seriously consider staffing. There is far more staff than troop leadership.

Eagle92, In our shop, everything OA is on the floor with the exception of the position patch which was behind the counter. Since the shop management basically blew me off, I sent an email to Scout Stuff customer service. Try going to the natonal BSA website and finding an organizational list with phone numbers and email addresses. That animal doesn't exist.

I'll go you one better than that. While helping staff the Trainer's Edge course this past Saturday, I strolled down to the scout shop (run by national) during our lunch break to buy a Chapter Adviser position patch. What did I find sitting on the shelf? No position patches, they were in a controlled drawer behind the counter. What I did find was the Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil ceremonies for sale to anyone that wanted to buy them. I asked the manager if he understood that the ceremonies were safeguarded material that only OA members were supposed to have access to based on what honor they were. His response, "you know, we've had other people tell us that". I spoke to the Lodge ADviser and the Council Program Director who both told me that when the council operated the scout shop, they could control things like that. Now that national runs it, they can do what they want and ignore their requests to put the ceremonies behind the counter.

Webelos is a transition from Cubs to Boy Scouts just as has been described already. While still part of the pack, it gets their feet wet in what Boy Scouting is all about. My son joined as a Webelos 1, Eagled in December 2010 and aged out in February 2011. Joining as a Tiger or a Webelos shouldn't detract from the experience they have as it is experienced at a different level and different age along the way. Our Webelos did a lot more camping and outdoor stuff than the rest of the pack, so they got to have experiences they did not fully have as Cubs.

We don't stop for a snack on a regular basis. We usually only do that if we are camping a couple of hours or more out to give everyone a break and some refreshment. We don't do lunch coming back on Sunday unless we are coming from a great distance like the next state over. Any stops coming home are predetermined by the PLC and scouts are notified to bring a couple of extra dollars if they want to get anything. Now, I have to say I struggle with the term bribery just like EagleDad. Scouting is filled with all sorts of incentives. I know boys and adults who love scout bling and will literally make a decision on attending some event just to get the patch. Is that bribery or is it incentive? Whatever you determine it to be, it worked to get them there didn't it?

Yes they do, but it is at the option of the council and not a requirement of national to the local councils. Individual Program Directors might choose to have a formal council sponsered PB program, but many don't. If someone's council doesn't, than your unit can buy the patches and make up their own requirements. The troop I'm with awards multiple PB's and tracks them. They only give you one patch, but keep track of how many nights you camped below freezing and mention it at COH's.