SR540Beaver

ASM915, it sounds like your lodge and council takes a whole different approach than ours. Typically, Webelos crossover in February at their Blue and Gold banquets. There is no way they would be 1st Class by May. Holding elections late in May doesn't work for us either as our first Ordeal is mid-May. Also, we don't schedule AOL dates they have to meet, we come to individual Packs at their request. The lodge has their schedule and the chapters work within that time frame. It occasionally gets tweaked here and there, but it comes from years of experience of what works in our council. Like you, most troops ignore the OA Troop Rep position regardless of how much information we have provided. sst3rd, our lodge works on a calendar year frame, so doing elections all year long wouldn't work very well. With the old Quality Lodge program which is now the Journey to Excellence program (much more difficult BTW), I really don't know how you would record numbers with a rotating calendar. qwazse, we don't do elections or call outs at summer camp. Those jobs fall to the chapters in our lodge. There are several issues with doing that. Our summer camp is at least a two hour trip one way for almost all scouts in our council. To provide election and ceremony teams for the 6 weeks of camp, working adults would have to take time off work to deliver them to camp and then bring them back late at night. Another issue is troops that go out of council for summer camp. Yet another issue is one expressed to me by a current SM who never got to be in OA as a youth because elections WERE held at summer camp. He came from a rural farm community troop and they never had enough boys at summer camp to qualify for holding an election. Having chapters bring elections to the troop's doorstep on their desired date works much better for us. We hold callout at a district event.

If you don't have an account, you'll need to register. Once you do, all sorts of online training is avaialbe and will be tracked for you. When someone asks for your certificate for Safe Swin Defense, you can sign on and print another copy.

kudu, Let me try this again. In the original post you said, "Has anyone ever written (for those of us unfamiliar with "leadership skills" jargon), a skeptical analysis of Leadership Development theory that links concepts like "innovation," "thinking outside the box," and group development theory with magical thinking and 7.7 trillion dollar bailouts?" Then you referenced an article by Bloomberg. I'm just trying to figure out what your point is and would like to see the article that drives your comments about leadership skill training leading to $7T bailouts. You posted this under the Wood Badge section, so I assume you are taking yet another shot at WB and somehow trying to tie it to government bailouts. Could you be a little less vague and cryptic?

Shortridge, You can't hold elections all year long. Elections can only be held once a year and the candidates for that year must complete thier Ordeal within the year they were elected for. If they do not, they must be reelected. Based on past experience, our Lodge chooses to hold elections in the 4th quarter of the year for the coming year. The Lodge holds two Ordeals, one in May and the other in August. Technically, we "can" hold an election right up until the first Ordeal in May and have for the straggler troops, but it's rare. All elections are at the convenience of the troops. All we do is let them know it is election season and they select their own date they want us to come. FrankScout, I wouldn't be happy if I were in those unit's position of being stood up. But as I stated earlier, you won't have that problem with my chapter. We have mature dedicated scouts and scouters who are trained for elections and a team will be on your doorstep on the date you requested. We've never missed one or rescheduled one yet because of us. We have shown up on the date a troop requested only to find out they cancelled their meeting and didn't bother to tell us. Look, I've been a unit scouter longer than I've been an adviser. I see both sides. That's why my chapter operates the way they do.

"Now Bloomberg reports that leadership skills experts removed $7.7 trillion dollars of substance from the economy." I'm a pretty savvy internet searcher and try as I might, I can't find a Bloomberg article that says anything about leadership skills experts and the $7.7T bailout. Articles about the bailout, yes. About leadership skills experts, no. Could you help your fellow scouters out here and post a link so we can understand what Bloomberg report you are talking about?

Eagle90, That wouldn't happen to you in my district/chapter. If we ask you for a date and you give us one that isn't full, you will have a fully uniformed and trained team on your doorstep on that date at the time you told us to be there. When YOU forget we were coming and you haven't determined who is on the ballot or even have the ballots prepared, the team will just smile and tell you they can wait. Or they will gladly reschedule if you ask to do that. They may say things about you to each other when they leave, but they'll extend every courtesy to you while they are there. Seriously, we do have to negotiate dates because we have kids who are in the band or on a team and can't make certain dates. With enough guys enlisted, we should have enough that one or two kids don't hold us up from keeping a date. SP, I'm not happy with 7 out of 23. In 2010 we held elections in 12 I believe. In 2011 it was 15. I had hoped to increase it for 2012 to 18. Right now it isn't looking too promising. While technically, we can do elections up until the forst Ordeal in May, we try to do all elections in the 4th quarter of the prior year. We are already forced to extend into January and February when the active guys should be working on Crossover ceremonies and Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies. As far as using boys from the units to organize there elections.....I wish. We have one troop in our district that 95% of our active Arrowmen come from. One of my goals is to get other troops, SM's and youth to get involved. But when you have SM's who won't even respond to requests for an election, it is kind of hard to get their boys to get interested. It's a task we are diligently working on.

You are probably coming here thinking this is going to be about a troop election gone bad. It isn't. It's about a Chapter Adviser's frustration with SM's out there who don't seem to have a clue and at times seem like they don't want to have a clue. It is our election season. We held election training for OA youth and adults so we can form election teams. Due to what appeared to be a loack of education on the SM's part in the last couple of years I've been Adviser, we invited the SM's to the training so they would have an understanding of the process. We have 23 troops. 1 SM showed up. Each year, we send a detailed email that explains the election process from beginning to end along with attachments they can print or forward to desiminate information and ask them to select an election date. Out of 23 troops, we've scheduled the 7 who responded. So yesterday, I sent individual emails and named the SM by name rather than a a broadcast email in the hopes they might respond. A few have. Here are the kind of responses I got. "At this time, Txxx will not be holding OA elections for 2012." That's it. No reason. Just that they aren't holding one. "We do not have anyone participating in OA so therefore we will not be having any elections." The reason why they don't have anyone particpating in OA is because they have never let us come do an election since they chartered a few years ago. "John Doe is the new scout master for troop xxx. Also I do not think anyone is interested. John, will you please ask on Wednesday if anyone is interested in OA?" Interested? Do they ask if boys are interested in wearing a uniform, advancing or camping? You hold the election as part of the program and then let the candidate individually decide if they want to complete their Ordeal. "We are having court of honor and expecting some one to show up and tell the parents what OA is and how it impacts our boys. Then we are going to vote in the boys." Oh my! We have an active Chapter and Lodge program. We have a Lodge website that can be reached independently or thru the Council website. I have a Chapter website. The Lodge and Chapter have a presence on facebook. I have a Chapter email list and the Lodge has a Lodge email list. We do Crossover ceremonies into these Troops. We have a presence at Webelos Woods, Camporees and summer camp. I know why these guys are so clueless......they choose to be. It isn't for lack of communication. So, now that I've vented, I'd like for the SM's out there to tell me what we as a Chapter can do to get your attention and more importantly, your support? What is it about OA that scares you, turns you off or just flat out disinterests you?

A little thump on the side of the turn table will get that record unstuck. We all realize that you think Wood Badge is the bane of Scouting in the US.....how could we not. Perhaps it is time to give the constant complaining a rest and be a productive member of the forum and post some positive and helpful information.

Having worked in the banking industry for 30+ years, I can tell you that much of the claims of greedy, evil bankers is boogey man stuff. Lumping Wall Street and big financial houses in with banks, savings and loans and credit unions is like lumping brain surgeons in with the nurse at the free clinic. They are in a related field, but it is apples and oranges. Banks are a business like any other business. They provide products and services at a cost to the consumer. For those folks who got bent out of shape over some of the banks beginning to charge $5 to use your card, they haven't the first clue what is involved in card service for a bank. The average Joe's checking account where he gets a direct deposit from his employer twice a month isn't what the bank uses for making car loans to the same consumer. There just isn't much money to be made in checking accounts. In fact, it typically costs banks to service these accounts. Because of that, you see service charges creeping higher all the time......just like you see the price of gas or a gallon of milk increase. While I say I work in th ebanking industry, I have spent most of the last 3 decades working for vendors who provide services to bank to do their data processing. Banks don't just rake in gold everyday and count it at no cost to them. Data systems cost a lot. Brick and mortar branches cost a lot. Utilities cost a lot. Payroll and benefits cost a lot. Etc., etc., etc., just like any business. Add on top of that how heavily regulated the banking industry is. I know a lot of you think bankers are shysters and crooks who can get away with just about any criminal activity they want. False. Banks have whole departments of people and pay for data services that do nothing but make sure they remain incompliance with government regulations. Why? Because federal auditors can walk thru the door at any minute and stay for the next month or more with complete access to all of your data to look for any irregularities. If they find them, you can pay AND pay BIG for not being in compliance. Now, Wall Street and the stock market? Different animal altogether. It's basically gambling, just like going to the casino. No one forces people to play the stock market or eve ncontribute to their company's 401k. We choose to do that. When the market is up, we can make good money. When the market is down, we can lose big. I know, I've lost too. But blaming someone else for your losses is like blaming the blackjack dealer at the casino for dealing you a bad hand. No one made you walk into the casino and play. Blame banks all you want. They are simply businesses with folks like me working in them......you know, folks just like you in your chosen profession. They are not crooks or greedy. They deal in money like GMC deals in nuts and bolts. We do it because it turns a profit and pays the bills.

Believe it or not, my son was in a leadership role from about 6 months into Boy Scouts until he aged out as an Eagle at 18. I viewed Scouting the same way I viewed baseball when he was a player. You have made a committment to a team and you have an obligation to be there. I don't remember a single time he stayed home for homework on a troop meeting night or a weekend campout. But he was out of school usually by 3 or 3:30 and the Troop meeting wasn't until 7 PM. Plenty of time to do homework BEFORE the troop meeting. From grade school thru high school, he knew that homework was to be done as soon as he got home from school and before any other activities. Will some kids push back? Of course they will. We were lucky that was more of a rules follower than a fighter. Now, all of that being said, if a kid isn't in a leadership role, I don't have that big of a problem with mom and dad keeping them home......other than it can start being abused or become a habit. If they are in a leadership role, they should be there unless they absolutely can't.

I'm not sure why I keep hearing about the number of Republican candidates and the number of debates they've held. The primaries begin next month......of course they've been debating leading up to it. You don't jump in the week before priamry season. It seems that people forget just a few short years back to the 2008 election. Remember the "small" Democrat field? Obama, Clinton, Biden, Dodd, Edwards, Gravel, Kucinich, Richardson, Bayh and Vilsack. Ten candidates in all.....and they debated to boot! When you laugh at the Republican field, look at these names and ask yourself if they make you the least bit more comfortable?

Is the link supposed to take you to a moveon.org story about two lesbians raising a baby? That's where it took me. Evidently it is a video and my company blocks all streaming media.

sasha, It does vary due to state laws. In our council, we have a number to call 24 hours a day that will get us in contact with the Scout Executive. Once reported to him, it is out of our hands and we can't find out whatever came of the case. I think this is to protect everyone involved. I do know that in 2005 while touring DC before the Jambo, one of the 12 year old boys claimed that his step-dad beat him. He stated this in his hotel room full of other boys. The boys knew what to do and reported it to me and another ASM. Unfortunately, this ASM and myself were his ASM in our home troop and his step-dad was the SM. Because of our relationship with both the boy and his step-dad, we took it to our Jambo SM who immediately made the call back to our council in Oklahoma. Probably 10 minutes elapsed from the time he said it until the SM was onthe phone. Once our duty was done, we never heard a peep out of the council as to what transpired. The boy is now an aged out Eagle and Vigil Honor and I just saw his step-dad when I visited the NYLT course he was staffing. I assume that the council investigated and it was determined there was nothing behind it. I do know that the boy was quite a "talker" and still is. He was/is severly ADD. But that in no way means he couldn't have been telling the truth. You never know what any individual is capable of. We followed the rules in our council. While I have not followed the Penn State case all that closely, I have at times wondered if Joe Pa wasn't getting a raw deal out of the whole thing. I could be very wrong, but my understanding from some of the reporting was that their policy is much like my council where you report to the top and they handle it. Joe Pa did report what he knew. The folks at the top didn't follow thru. Should he be caught in the net of those to be held responsible. That will be an ongoing debate. Many people feel like he is just as guilty as the abuser.

emb021, How many councils do you think are prepared to understand and support non-camping Crews? I know what the model looks like on paper, but I also see the reality on the ground and most professionals aren't geared for arts and hobbies, sports or religion.

Eagle92, When you went thru Wood Badge, who did you tent with? If you were on a Crew outing, could you have tented with the same person? See any inconsistancy there? EagleDad, I agree on the Boy Scout age range. I would want to see it go thru at least age 16 to get the benefit of older scouts being the example for younger scouts. That being said, if you were just grouping age ranges for any kind of program in general, the UK model is probably about right.

I spun this from the discussion on "Venturings Place". There were comments about youth in Crews working to give back and also about being able to get away from ankle biters. Also comments about retention problems within the demographic and kids going off to college. I've often wondered why we do things the way we do? Boy Scouts runs until the 18th birthday when a boy becomes an adult and ages out. He can join the troop as an adult, be one on one with adults and tent with adults. Yet if he is an OA member, he is a youth until 21 and can not be one on one with an adult or tent with them. Crazy huh? A 19 year old can be an ASM in a Troop and considered an adult, but if he is also a Crew member, he is a youth. Two different things at the same time in two different arms of the same organization. Now, we've helped confuse the training scenario. This year saw a change to NYLT where it is program neutral and includes Venturing. So now we have 13 year old Boy Scouts attending the same leadership training class with 20 year old Venturers. Of course, Wood Badge lowered the age for participants to 18 and if they are registered as an adult in a Troop, they can attend. Confusing? At the NYLT Course Directors Conference a few weeks ago, the age issue came up. Basically, the rule of thumb was that you certainly wouldn't want to put 13 or 14 year old participants in patrols and tents with 18 and 19 year olds. Then they said that if they are older than 18, you should be steering them towards Wood Badge anyway. Then why did you change NYLT to include Venturing? BSA needs to address the elephant in the room. I'm all for tradition.....that makes sense. Looking at the UK Model, I think it might be a much more workable model than the age related rules and exceptions we keep dealing with in the US. In the UK they have: Beaver Scouts for 6 - 8 year olds Cub Scouts for 8 10 year olds Scouts for 10 - 14 year olds Explorer Scouts for 14 -18 year olds Network for 18 - 25 year olds What say you?

I've always seen Venturing as the program created t oappease all the people who like Boy Scouts minus all the Boy Scout trappings. It's for all the people who don't care all that much for troop/patrol structure, advancement, uniforms or being boys only. A program created tp protect the Boy Scouting program. Like you said, Troops usually end up getting Crews started and then they are often run as an unofficial patrol of the Troop. Many seem to struggle to stand alone. One of the main problems I see is lack of focus. A Crew can center around just about anything. Most Troops who start Crews center them around camping and high adventure simply because that is what they know and what they do. But in reality, a church youth group or a drama club can be a crew. Then the question is how do you fit them into a Council's camping culture. They are a fish out of water. Crews have a limited appeal. If a guy is in a good active Troop, a Crew has little to offer beyond shooting pistols. For the small number of girls interested in the outdoors, it provides an outlet. The 14 to 21 age range is not really a problem, but lets face it......when a kid turns 18 and heads off to college, you will lose the vast majority of them from your program. Heck, you lose a lot at 16 when they can drive and work. Everyone seems to want to make Venturing work, but it seldom does. Yes, there are some successes and there are people here that have good programs. But I think those are exceptions to the rules. Now, before people think I don't like Venturing, that isn't true. I'd love to see it succeed. I just think Venturing is the "anti" Boy Scout Troop trying to be run by Boy Scout Troops. It's everything a Boy Scout Troop isn't. It suffers from lack of structure and targeting a tough demographic. When I say lack of structure, I mean things like regular scheduled meetings. When our Crew was functioning (before all the girls left for college), they might meet once or twice a month to decide whether they were going ice skating and then for pizza or to a movie and then for ice cream. They would email back and forth for two weeks trying to work out a day that the majority of them could go. Did they do a Philmont trek? Yes they did. Did they camp on their own with their own equipment? Rarely. The few times a year that they did camp, they used Troop gear and tagged along on a Troop campout. Do they lead busy teenage lifes? Yes, but so do the guys in the Troop at the same age. The difference is that the guys in the Troop knew there was a meeting each Monday night at 7:30 PM with a PLC at 7. Each campout was determined and scheduled a year in advance. The Crew just never functioned that way. Lack of structure.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

You never know what you've missed if you never had it. Sure, the old timers bemoan what Scouting is today, but the kids today weren't scouts 50 years ago. Things change. Always have, always will. My dad (God rest his soul) was born in 1925 and plowed the family farm with a pair of mules. I hear tell today that farmers ride around in air-conditioned tractors with GPS units and connections for their iPods so they can listen to their favorite tunes. My dad was a Marine in WWII. Things weren't always easy. I hear tell that today's Marines get to email back home or do video chats with their family and they get to watch first run movies. I could go on with a million examples. I won't. The past generation always had it harder and things were always better. Today's generation is always losing out because things are done differently than the way we used to do it in the good old days. I quit scouting as a Webelos in 1967. I wasn't a Boy Scout. My son joined as a Webelos and aged out of Boy Scouts as an Eagle earlier this year. He had a blast. He served as a PL, ASPL, SPL, TG amd JASM. He staffed summer camp, a council camporee, cub day camp and served as SPL of his Jambo trip. He attended two Jambos, backpacked Philmont and the Pecos Widerness and paddled Northern Tier. He staffed two NYLT courses. He is a Vigil Honor in the OA where he held Lodge and Chapter leadership positions and served on the ceremonies team. Please don't tell him that he had a lousy Scouting experience or a sissy Scout experience. He'd do his best to behave in a scoutlike behavior, but he'd stronly disagree with you. And yes, some day when he is my age with a son in scouting, he'll probably be telling him how this scouting program isn't worth a bucket of warm spit compared to when he was in scouts at the turn of the century. It's all about perspective and your perspective changes depending on which hill your standing on.

Oak Tree, Yes, if you google the term "first class first year", you come up with a handful of references from scouting sites, but not from BSA itself. You are correct, someone provided a couple of PDF's from scouting.org. I based what I said on the fact that I went to scouting.org and actually entered first class first year with and without quotation marks and fcfy and came up empty handed. My point was that when I'm out and about at units, in my district and council in my roles with the OA, Jambo and NYLR, it just isn't a topic of discussion. Now, there may be discussion about how does your unit handle new scouts and the answers are as varied as the units are. Some only get 1 or 2 new scouts a year into a troop of 6 to 8 boys while others get 15 to 20 in a troop of 60. Some intergrate new boys into mixed age patrols after 6 to 9 months in a new scout patrol while others integrate the 1 new boy into the single patrol/troop of 6. Yes, there are worksheets and tracking sheets and plans out there, but I just don't think they are seen as the be all end all of scouting in most units around the country. Here at scouter.com is really the only place I see it discussed in any depth and people act like it is the death of scouting as we know it. Again, from my own personal perspective, I just don't see or hear anything about it in my council. When I ran our new scout program, I took a look at the document that was making the rounds that laid out a 12 month program. where did I hear about it? Here. How long did we seriously fool with it? About a week.

Tampa, Why were they signed off on rank advancement requirements?

I'm not sure there is a head to put a bullet in. The only place I ever hear FCFY mentioned is here in this forum. You certainly can't find any mention on scouting.org. As others have said, BSA once made the claim that studies showed that boys who made 1st class i nthe first year tended to stay in the program longer than those who didn't. Scouters out in the units then began to build on that, right or wrong. The troop I serve, doesn't formally have a FCFY program where we out kids thru some sort of schooling and then rubber stamp their book in assembly line fashion. But we do keep an eye towards the rank requirments when working with our troop guides to develop the new scout program thruout the year. We typically get between 15 to 20 new scouts per year and we do a pretty darn good job of retaining them. Having been a campmaster, I've had plenty of opportunities to watch the troops who come to camp and spend the weekend poking sticks in the fire. Those troops just never seem to grow and have quite a few dropouts. Then I see the troops like mine where each campout has a (boy) planned program and sitting around the fire happens after the campfire program on Saturday evening. Few of our new boys make 1st class in the first year. It usually takes them about 18 months. Some do it faster and some do it slower. We've got one 16 year old scout who is still at 2nd class while some from his "class" are working on their Eagle projects. There are two factors. First, having a program that supplies the opportunity to advance at your own pace. Second, scouts willing to avail themselves of the opportunities. For me, their doesn't seem to be anything to the myth of an official BSA FCFY program beyond simply saying studies show a boy who makes FCFY stays in longer. Well duh, kids that do that are your motivated, dedicated kids who will most likely end up as Eagle, Vigil, camp staff, etc. That units decided to up their game and make sure they are providing an active program that supports advancement, isn't really a bad thing is it?

"They'll probably sleep in the nearby adult cabins like most adult staff." Look at that white section on the left of the map. That is the adult staff subcamp.

I attended as an ASM in 2005 and 2010. I currently sit on my council's Jambo committee that has just started meeting. The thinking and planning for Jambo by national has taken a complete 180. Probably for the better. We have not received the Council Guide yet, but I can tell you what I know. At AP Hill, the footprint was 5,000 acres and we actually had bus lines set up with school buses to move people from place to place. The Jambo fooprint at Summit is 1,000 acres. This is a good thing. It makes getting from one place to another much easier. Instead of having Regional subcamps with duplicate sfaff like at AP Hill, Summit will have a single, centralized reduced staff to support the whole Jamboree. Speaking earlier of getting from one place to another easier, you had to dodge traffic at AP Hill. The roads were constantly abuzz with cars, delivery and service trucks and busses. At Summit, there will be no vehicles inside the footprint. There will be external roads that lead up to the edge where things can be loaded or unloaded. This is a good thing. I mentioned regional subcamps earlier. Gone. Taking a cue from world Jamboree, the subcamps will include troops from all over the nation. Southern Region troops won't all be grouped together and multiple contingent troops from a council won't camp next to each other. Three troops from council XYZ might be assigned to Subcamps 5, 18 and 20. I see that as a good thing. There will be permanent infrastructure built instead of wood stud and visqueen shower houses with all the PVC above ground. This is a good thing. There will be a visitors center with a Jambo lite experience. Participants can enter the visitor area, but visitors can't enter the Jambo footprint. This is a good thing. Too many visitors jammed up lines at venues and the line would be hours long at times. Since they are building permanent infrastructure, the place will be wired. To eleviate over crowding, each participant will be given a "J-Phone" upon arrival. Prior to attending Jambo, boys will pre-select what they want to do and an individualized schedule will be created for them. The J-Phone will tell them what day and what time to arrive at scuba, or the zip-line or anything else they have selected and they will be able to walk up and do it with no waiting in line. The J-Phone is also how any information or announcements will be delivered to participants. The $850 price tag of Jamboree will include everything you need. All tents, cots, dining flies, tables, chairs, cooking equipment. etc. is included in the price. They even provide your daypack and duffel bag which will be shipped to council. That is all a boy brings with him. No footlockers. The bus will get you close to your subcamp, you disembark and walk to your campsite with your pack and duffel and all your equipment is waiting for you to set up. This is a good thing. Having sat on the previous two Jambo committees, you have no idea what is involved in procuring all of the equipment and then loading it on an 18 wheeler you have to rent to get it all to Jamboree. Having everything there is a good thing. Having all of it as part of the $850 is an even better thing. It means that the council can charge less. In 2010, our proce tag was $2,995. This time we started out with $1,995 and as of last night, we are toying with dropping it to $1,500. How and why. Before, we flew to Philly and toured and then bussed to DC and toured several days before heading to Jambo. Airline tickets, hotels, restaurants, tour guides, busses, etc. all cost money. This time we are going by bus straight thru to Jambo with no touring. This drops the price drastically and makes it more available to more kids. This is a good thing. One final thought. Patch trading will take place at specific times at a specific location with adults monitoring. This too is a good thing. https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/2013-Jamboree-Highlights.aspx(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

David CO, What a shame and lost opportunity. Many of us seek to foster relationships with Native Americans so we can be as authentic as possible and honor their culture and traditions.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

desertrat77 - "Second, cheerful service has been replaced with an inward focus on fun indoor conclaves/events, lodge flap worship, strutting around wearing a sash, and ego inflation in general." In general, I disagree. I don't think you can point to those things and say they are happening across the board in all Lodges. In some, sure. The conclaves and fellowships I've attended have only used "indoors" for dining. Everything else is outdoors. Do we have lodge flap nuts? Yes, two adults who preach the virtues of patch trading to mostly deaf ears. Strutting around wearing a sash? We teach that the sash is only to be worn at OA functions. Ego inflation? The kids I know who actually participate in my Chaper and Lodge pretty much get the idea of service. The fact that they are doing both unit scouting AND OA is because they are dedicated, not for glory or fame.....since most kids won't give the OA a second thought.