SR540Beaver

Most of the Boy Scouts you read about getting lost while out camping........were car camping. Remember the boy in Utah who walked the trail from the lake where they were fishing back to the campsite and was never seen again? This was a short trip that just took a couple of minutes to walk and was almost a straight shot if I recall and there were people making the trip back and forth during the day. It's rare that you hear of an individual boy getting lost on a trek. One, you don't leave the group. Two, you are with a group that has maps and compasses. You might not know where you are temporarily, but you aren't lost. It's usually the boys on a car camping trip who decide to ignore the buddy system and wonder off alone that get lost. I'd venture to say that since no one ever plans on getting lost, they see no need to take their survival kit with them since they just want to try and catch that pretty butterfly they've never seen before......oops!

Twocub, No, we get it. However, some folks seem to think that even listing your title is too much too.

Well Beavah, your line of work still places a lot of importance on the use of paper, ink and postage. Mine went digital ages ago. I haven't sent or received a paper memo or letter at work in more than a decade. That being said, since my industry formally corresponds digitally, all of the same rules and ettiqutte still apply. When I send my brother a joke by email, do I include my title? No. Heck, I usually don't even put my name. If I'm emailing a client or a vendor, you betcha. It's the professional thing to do. And for those OA candidates or Packs wanting a Webelos crossover ceremony, it's helpful for them to know who this guy is sending them an email.

Beavah: "Don't they already know you're the chapter adviser?" If they didn't, they do now. I also sign my work email with Senior Business Analyst, when most of the people I deal with already know that. It is customary as well as expected to include your title and contact information in your official correspondence. I'm guessing in your line of work you don't just sign everything Beavah do you?

I get a ton of email from scouters and I've never seen it personally. Being an OA Chapter Adviser, I do include that in my signature on emails I send out to the chapter.

TAHAWK, Bravo! Well said. You made my day. I keep reading all these naysayers talking about how scouting has turned into a parlor activity with kids sitting on their butts in classrooms. Where? I've been associated with my current troop since 2005 and while we meet weekly and do have skill sessions during meetings, we are a boy led, outdoor troop. We alternate between Philmont and Northern Tier from year to year and on the odd occasion that we didn't get a slot, we plan treks in places like the Pecos Wilderness. This past summer was the first time we took a crew to Seabase. While the boys enjoyed it, they said it was more like a vacation and too costly. Don't know if we'll do that again. Our 2012 Philmont crew has been on a hiking and backpacking regimen since last fall. We camp every month, regardless of weather. Since 2005, the only time I remember a campout being cancelled was when there was two inches of ice on the roads and it was the CC who made the call because the SM still wanted to go. One other time we came home on a Saturday because it started sleeting and freezing rain and the tents were failing. Is every troop like ours? No. As the OA Chapter Adviser, I get to visit all the troops in my district and I can only think of 1 troop out of 24 that fit the bill as parlor scouts. They had a kid make Eagle Scout the same time as my son in 2010 who only had 24 total days of camping. My son was over 200. While many of the other troops in our district don't have the resources our large troop has to pull off their own high adventure program, they are all outdoor oriented and camp every month. The boys all seem to be happy. I think scouting is doing just fine in my neck of the woods......and probably in most others as well. Some folks refuse to be satisfied. On topic, numerous times the Baden Powell Scouting Association has been touted her as an alternative. Each time, I go look at their website......dated 2003....and it has always been under construction. Seems there used to be a single unit in Texas and the last time I looked, their website hadn't been updated in ages. The Baden Powell SERVICE Association is a new one on me. It looks like it might actually be viable, but they use scouting materials from 1938 as the basis of their program. It's up to the observer as to whether that is a good or bad thing.

I'd say as long as they do a good job and you can keep them. My years in scouting have shown me two things. Packs often have greater numbers than troops because it is easier to recruit the little guys. Troops operate more smoothly because leaders hang around longer and are not constantly reinventing the wheel. Packs do, because of Cub and parent turnover in short periods of time. There is less continuity in packs than in troops. Back around 2003, my son joined as a Webelos. Our Cubmaster was serving as a Troop Guide on a Wood Badge course and he recruited 4 of us to attend. That started a trend in the Pack to get leaders trained for their job as well as getting WB trained. It gave the Pack leaders a greater awareness and understanding of scouting, a network of like minded people to draw from and the leadership skills needed to operate an organization. Here it is, 9 years later and that Pack is one of the strongest Packs around, has spawned a Boy Scout Troop and continues to pump out trained leaders. Part of the secret has been continuity. The leaders are trained and see a bigger picture and tend to remain in their positions longer which makes for less chaos and reinventing the wheel. If you "sucker" someone into Cubmaster and they do a good job, try to keep them there as long as possible.

Kudu, Here is a novel idea......attend a WB21C course so you can actually speak from experience instead of arguing with all the folks who did attend and enjoyed it. Opinions are great and all, but I'm guessing you know the old saying about how similar they are to a certain body part. Although self appointed, you aren't the arbiter of all things scouting.

Gosh Trev, Ron Paul has been around for ages and info about his positions are readily available. Well, if you research it on your own. The media and other politicians won't help you out because Paul threatens the good deal they all have going on. All one has to do is look at the state of politics today to see where many of our problems come from. Obama uses a lot of fancy empty rhetoric about hope, change and fair share while doing as little as possible. That's to be expected from someone who voted present more than yes or no duing their short time as a legislator. Then you have guys on both sides who say one thing and constantly do another. The media doesn't help with picking who they like and only providing sound bites. Paul is consistent. He is consistent because he narrows his focus to the supreme law of the land, the Constitution. Remember how the advice around here is often that troops and packs don't need a 50 page bylaw when the oath and law will suffice. Well, that's Ron Paul and the constitution. He has carefully thought and weighed issues over time thru the lens of the constitution and he doesn't waver from it. Most other politicians on each side of the aisle simply pay lip service to the Constitution. We as a people have lived thru so much bastardization of the Constitution that we have lost sight of it's simplicity and it's true meaning. Paul has not, but his views unfortunately come across to many Americans as foreign because of it. When people are willing to look beyond the sound bites and invest a little time in learning his views on the issues, they usually come away agreeing with him. Take a look at http://www.ronpaul2012.com/.

I disagree. Big surprise huh? Of course the boys in a troop know who is wealthy and who isn't. But within the troop, that really doesn't matter. At least it doesn't if you are doing it right. You have patrols with patrol leaders and an SPL and ASPL. Patrols share their work and everyone learns to do all the tasks a patrol needs to do while camping. Everyone serves as a grubmaster with a budget and a shopping list. When it's Timmy's turn, he doesn't get to buy steak and lobster just because his parents are well off. Everyone pays whatever the settled amount is and everyone has the same budget per person to work with. Timmy could wear his high dollar designer label jeans and $200 sneakers, but his troop is a full uniform troop, so he doesn't get to flaunt his high dollar clothes. He wears scout pants and a scout shirt just like Bobby who's parents make half the money of Timmy's parents. Elections held based on popularity or social position ends up being a valuable lesson to most boys. William is popular, but he absolutely sucks at leadership. Next time I'm voting for Jake because he's always prepared and helpful. I've mentioned it before in these uniforming threads. I have a friend in scouting that I Campmastered with who was a janitor. I have another friend in my troop who is a State Supreme Court Justice. If you saw them dressed in their work clothes and what they drove, you'd have a pretty good idea of their station in life. If I introduce them to you in their scout uniforms sitting around the campfire and just chat with them, you'd have no idea. The uniform is an equalizer and a reminder that when we are in it, we are all equal and brothers. It should be worn proudly and the adults should set the example. The uniform makes for brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country. Robert Baden-Powell Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader. Robert Baden-Powell

desertrat77, if the world were our little labratory, I'd love to set up an experiment and see if it would make a difference. Personally, I don't think it would. Sports uniforms don't look cool, but athletes are idolized, so kids like to imitate them. Baseball pants......honestly, do those look good on anyone? Would you wear those in public to a movie or out to eat or only when you aren't at practice or a game. I don't see band kids running around in their big hats with feathers sticking up. Scouting has never been considered cool by the general public and kids succumb to the peer pressure. Some don't care what others think and some worry about it too much. You can tell who the self confident and self consious kids are in any troop. The self confident kids put the uniform on and ride to the meeting, get out and walk in in full uniform. The self conscious kids are the ones who wear the shirt with a hoodie over it even in summer. I know some kids who carry it in wadded up and put it on once they are inside the building and take it off before they leave. That has nothing to do with functionality. I just don't buy thr cost or functional arguments. It's more about scouts not being cool and not wanting to be laughed at. Just for the sake of argument, how would you design a scout uniform that would be as proudly worn as a sports uniform......ands make it appealing to all scouts at all ages?

Beavah, you're over analyzing it. The point is that teams and organizations have uniforms that identify them and there are times when as a part of that team or organization, you are expected to wear the uniform, the whole uniform. Don't get hung up on whether it's practice or a game because that isn't the point. The point is there is a time when you are expected to wear it as part of the team and if you don't, you don't play. I've seen it happen in baseball. The kid who keeps showing up without his hat sat on the bench because he was out of uniform. As to the team owning the uniform and providing them, that has me scratching my head why the kids on our high school football team have to raise money for their pads, helmet and uniform. To those who think the scout uniform is too expensive, they must have never had a kid play sports. When my son was in competitvie baseball, we'd spend anywhere between $150 to $200 per year on uniforms. Scouting seems to be the only uniformed organization I know of where people resist wearing the uniform and will devise every excuse not to wear it.

Oak Tree, When the baseball team is playing a game or the marching band is marching on the field, yes they are all in matching uniforms. What they wear to bed, I do not know. When a fully uniformed troop is having a troop meeting, a COH, etc. I would expect to see them all looking uniform. When they are canoeing down a river, no. It really isn't different. Teams, bands, troops, armies, etc. all have uniforms and appropriate times to wear them. If the uniform isn't used, then what's the purpose and why bother?

To those who are anti-full uniform, I never can get them to answer this simple question. Does your basball coach allow you to play in jeans or a business suit? How about the marching band director? Imagine a marching band wearing just part of their uniform. The usual answer is, "well, that's different". No, no it isn't.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

I'll shorten and simplify the list. 1. Use the common sense that God gave you. 2. Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you. 3. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I like my uniform pants. They are a vast improvement over the old uniform pants and in my experience, they wear like iron. Trust me, I'm in them a LOT!

Lisa, What your missing is that those candidates that Democrats felt had gravitas and were serious candidates in 2008, scared the bejesus out of the other half of the nation and their ideas were considered laughable......just like today with a Republican debate. I stand by my statement that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Think about it, Edwards was undone by sexual accusations just like Cain. Biden was/is a gaffe machine just like Perry. Kucinich is the liberal Paul. Obama was a guy with a paper thin resume and no worthy experience as evidenced by his administration. "Hope and change" is about as nebulous as "fair share" is today. Words that sound pretty, but have no real definition. I could have appreciated a Hillary administration over Obama any day, but she is the only one out of the 10 I listed. In hindsight, she would have done a far better job. In short, half the country was as unimpressed with the 2008 slate of Democrats as they are with the 2012 Republican slate. It just depends on which side of the fence one sits.

@Lisa, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There were many folks in 2008 who held the Democrat candidates in the same low esteem as many now hold the Republican candidates. @Beavah, sensitive? No. I'm neither a Republican or Democrat, so I can call a spade a spade on the hypocrisy of both sides when it comes to criticizing the opposition. No one has the market cornered.

JM, Honestly, that is a rare occurence, but it has happened on occasion. We'll take any boy at any time and integrate them in with the NSP and work with them. We don't really try to catch them up as they all move at their own pace. What we do as a troop is present a program that covers all of the rank requirements in the hopes that they will take advantage of it. We don't teach them something and automatically sign off because they were present.

I'm constantly amazed at the liberals who find the 2012 Republican race so amusing. They seem to have short memories. It was just 4 short years ago that we had a Democratic field with 10, count them, 10 candidates with Obama, Biden, Clinton, Dodd, Edwards, Gravel, Kucinich, Richardson, Bayh and Vilsack. There was a good amount of sniping and back stabbing and at the end of the day, look what the process produced, Obama. Folks shouldn't be so quick to laugh at others for their fly being unzipped when they have their own pants around their ankles.

EagleDad and I are in neighboring districts of the same council and I ditto what he said. Most troops want the crossovers to cross in February and kick off their new scout program in earnest the beginning of March. When I was ASM for our new scout program (15 to 20 new scouts per year), that is what we encouraged the packs to do so we could get some experience and comfort under their belts before summer camp and so we were not having to start new scouts in tiers over several months. As an OA Chapter Adviser, I like to see them cross in February as well because it fits well into our annual planning. That being said, we had one pack/troop that decided to crossover in early December about a week after our ceremony team had began working on the crossover ceremony. We have some that want a ceremony as late as May which we typically won't do because we have Ordeal in May and the team spends much of March and April preparing for that. How they hold Webelos II's until May without a mass mutiny is beyond me.

Yes, we are still very aware that you had an extremely rare and non-typical WB experience. Acceptance is the first step.

Basement, Each patrol gets two minutes IF they want it. With a full course of 8 patrols, that is 16 minutes out of a 75 minute session. MOST staffs are highly aware of the schedule. From the time the patrols get up in the morning until they go to bed at night is scheduled down to the minute. Much work goes into the facilities and logistics of how we are going to move these people from this venue to this venue and stay within our time frame. Let 3 or 4 sessions slip an extra 15 minutes and you are an hour behind at night with really tired and cranky people. The schedule and time management are stressed to staff from day one of staff development meetings. You just can't afford to fall behind. Are there sessions and days where it happens on even the best of courses? Sure there are and you find ways to tweak the schedule to get back on schedule. My council has two courses per year and we have a WB committee that oversees the selection of course directors and course continuity. In short, we don't reinvent the wheel with each course and we use time tested best practices from course to course. For instance, staff wants to get out of Dodge just as much as the participants on the last day of the course. From experience, we know what materials and items can be put away in storage as the course progresses and the QM staff does that on an ongoing basis thru the course. By doing this, we have a minimum of clean up on the final day.....even though we will be there for a few more hours after the participants are gone. We have the patrols break camp and transport their gear to a waiting trailer which is pulled to the parking lot around noon. At the final field assembly after the staff and participants go theu the line and shake hands, the staff marches off to the dining hall leaving only the SPL with the participants who leads them to the parking lot to get in their vehicles and head home. We do this to minimize the long goodbyes of participants who want to honor, gift, gab with the staff. We want them to drive home while it is still light out and have a safe trip home and so we can do our final cleanup and debrief and leave too. Believe it or not, there is plenty of sessions and networking that goes on at the regional Course Director's Conferences each year where these kinds of tips are discussed. Every council is different. Some put on a course once every couple of years and others put on 4 to 6 per year. Some have properties with outstanding facilities and others don't. So every course is going to be flavored a little differntly, but because the CD takes an oath to present the syllabus as written, everyone should have a similar experience from Alaska to Florida and Maine to California and all points in besween. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but it is few and far between.

Right wrong or indifferent, the course syllabus allows 2 minutes per patrol at the closing luncheon to make presentations. Note, I didn't say gift, I said presentation. It is up to the individual patrol to do whatever they want with their alloted time. They can do nothing, they can speak on what the course has meant to them, they can simply say thanks to an individual, the whole staff or the other patrols or they can give a gift(s). Nothing is required, time is just set aside. I'd cut and paste the portion of the syllabus that includes the two minute presentation passage, but the PDF I have is images of pages instead of text I can copy.

I've staffed four courses and was gifted at two. Nothing is required or expected. People staff to give back and staffing is its own reward. That being said, a bond is often developed between the TG and Patrol or the Patrols and SPL, etc. Something inexpensive and simple is best if you choose to give a gift. When I served as QM, one of the patrols gave me a paperback Dutch Oven cookbook.....because as the saying goes, "all good things come from the QM". But no one's feelings will be hurt if you don't give them anything. They will be humbled and honored if you do.