SR540Beaver

OGE, You have a point. I vote for the gunny sack and lake method. Ya know, we had an old mutt when I was growing up. She was a sweetheart. I got her the first day of first grade and we had to put her down due to cancer when I was a sophomore in college. My dad was raising 4 kids on a single paycheck and he saw spending money on pets as a luxury. Therefore, we never had old Chigger fixed. Everytime she went into heat, we did our best to lock her up. It rarely worked. She had 54 puppies over her lifetime. You can imagine I had a fun childhood with 54 puppies to play with. We gave every single puppy away free to good homes and never found the need to put a bullet in any of them.

I don't want to generalize, but I think many people look at a flag ceremony the same way they do saying the Oath and Law. It's something they are required to do by rote memory and don't give much thought to the meaning behind it. There is very little excuse for an adult not to understand it, but I can see a boy having an epiphany at some point and getting what these ceremonies stand for. The ceremony was done because it is something we always do. Hey, now it's over; grab the flags and lets go home. What a shame. On a side note, we didn't have our flag at the last troop meeting. So we resorted to the boys saluting the flag on my uniform sleeve. I saluted too, but found I couldn't face the flag and my salute kept obscuring the view of the flag for the boys. I finally gave up and just stood at attention while they finished the pledge.

Maybe when his wound heals, they can tie him in an old gunny sack and throw him in a lake or just drive him out on a country road and abandon him.

Unc, Granted, there are pros and cons to everything in life. We are a brand new troop of just a few months with 10 boys. We are praying and dreaming of the day we get a trailer. Yes, you have to consider insurance and storage, but those are small potatoes compared to the gyrations we go thru to go camping. We have no troop equipment yet. The SM has a personal chuckbox that the adults use and another chuckbox that the boys are currently using. They are stored in his garage. The boys use my gas bottle, distribution tree and lantern. Another leader has purchased items such as dishpans (that won't fit in the chuckbox with everything else) that are stored at her house. Trying to pull everything together can be a chore. We've had occasions where one of the leaders would be out of town and we had to scramble to find more gear. Yeah, yeah....poor planning on our part. Our charter is a very small church that lets us use a Sunday School room and has no storage area for us. A trailer would allow us to store all of our gear in one place and have it available with the ease of hooking up and driving off. We are raising funds now to buy needed gear with an eye to the future for a trailer. Until then, our gear will be spread across town in various garages and we will always drive of without something. The bright side is it teaches us to improvise.

Hunt, Your Back to School night is just for parents? I guess it could be viewed that way here to since it is the parents who are writing the checks to pay for the lunch account, buy this years school t-shirt, meet the teachers, etc. However, the kids bring their supplies and take them to their new room to store them and meet their teachers. Our back to school night involves everyone. The school is set up in the cafeteria at various tables and run the parents thru in assembly line fashion. However, in the hallway outside the cafeteria, the Cubs, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, cheer schools, etc. all set up tables to recruit. We picked up 3 new 6th graders for our Troop during our Back to School night. We are allowed to send brochures home with the kids once it is approved by the school board. But our experience is that it is easier to sign them up face to face than to send yet another piece of paper junk mail home with them.

Rooster, How is my heart surgery comparison overboard? There were over 200 searchers being led by professional trained SAR folks. I've gone out to the site set up for this young man and seen the topo maps overlaid with the GPS tracks of the searchers. Unless we are trained in SAR and very familiar with that particular area, I don't see how our speculations can enhance the search. From the map, I can see where the elevation rises and drops. I can see where streams and lakes are. I can't see where fallen trees, boulder fields, caves, heavily forested areas, etc. are. They executed a methodical and detailed search pattern. My heart goes out to this young man, his family and his troop. It haunts me. I wish there were something I could do. But I can't imagine there is any valuable "eureka" revelation that I can provide from my armchair several states away that will aid a bunch of veteran SAR's. I know they appreciate my concerns, support and prayers; but I'm sure they don't need me second guessing their efforts and telling them how to do their job.

woj, I hear you brother. We have a number of ADD kids in the troop. We went on a campout this past weekend and many of the boys were....well, let's say less than scout like in their behavior. We had a clam heart to heart with them at the troop meeting Tuesday night. We explained how the oath and law are not mere words to recite, but are a promise you make to live your life by a certain code. We also explained that lack of showing scout spirit would slow up any advancement. Ten minutes later, I catch one of the boys clutching a metal beam in both hands and his feet braced against the wall in an attempt to climb it to the roof. This is in the sanctuary of the church by the way. Part of the talk was how firtunate we were to find this charter and how we must treat the building with respect. I had promised the boys that I would do my best not to raise my voice if they would do their best to act like scouts. I'm afraid my voice got loud when I saw his feet on the wall of the church. It'll get better. It'll get better. It'll get better.......

This event has really driven the point of safety home with me. I've really been thinking hard about purchasing pea-less survival whistles for the troop. The whistles would not be given to the boys to take home. They would be stored at the charter and passed out in the parking lot before leaving for a campout. No vehicle rolls until the whistle is hanging from each boy's neck. Just like watching to make sure they have a buddy with them before leaving camp, we would make sure that the whistle is always hanging around their neck. That is rule number one. Rule number two is that no one EVER blows a whistle unless they are lost. Next rule would be to stay put....period. I can see how a boy gets lost. Think of all those big boys who will drive around for hours and never admit they are lost. Once you get off the beaten path, one tree or rock looks like the next one. Think about it, when you are walking over rough terrain, where are your eyes usually? On the ground in front of you. When you turnaround, nothing looks familiar because yo have not been looking at what is behind you. You start backtracking in an effort to go back where you came from.....but you don't know where you came from. Learning to look for landmarks and what is behind you is a valuable skill to learn. But more important than that is to stay where you are and quit guessing once you realize you are lost. Then start blowing. I think another wise move is to build a fire and always keep it going. Fire is our friend. It provides heat and light and keeps us from straying. Once it is hot, add green wood and leaves to make plenty of smoke. People can smell it and planes can seee it. Keep blowing. There are plenty of other survival skills to teach, but I think a whistle, fire and staying put increases your odds greatly of staying alive and being found.

Some of you may not be aware that hops is a teenager and has spent the day at school. He won't see any of these comments until he gets home. The original thread had this site in one of the posts. http://garrett.xi.intranets.com/default.asp?link= This is a site set up to do exactly what the second thread was created for. It even contains topo maps overlaid with GPS tracks made by searchers. It looks like they covered a great amount of territory in their search. It gives you the ability to make comments and suggestions to the people on the ground there. For those who want to participate, this is an official place to do so. It will do more good than speculating in this forum.

wojauwe, I was mostly joking when I made my comment, but not completely. We are a brand spanking new troop with ten 11 and 12 year old boys. At least four of them were not Cubs. We're working on many many things. We'll get there.

I physically hurt everytime I think about this tragedy and my heart goes out to this boy and his family. I don't agree with closing the thread.....but I don't really see that anything can be accomplished by second guessing the professional SAR folks who are familiar with the terrain there. From the stories I read, they did grid searches with GPS units so they could map out where they had been and not duplicate their efforts and waste valuable time trying to reach him while still alive. I don't think a bunch of scouters scattered across the country with only a topo map in hand are going to have some great revelation that the professionals missed. Anything is possible, but it isn't very probable. I've watched shows on heart surgery, but I don't think a heart surgeon will find much value in my advice or observations.

And all this time I thought that standing there with three fingers in the air was so you could look silly and be ignored. That seems to be the general understanding of it among our boys.

A Field Director is a professional position at the Council level. He is the boss of the District Executives. His boss is the Director of Field Services. In my Council, we have one Director of Field Services, two Field Directors and eleven District Executives.

E, You can wear one hat and do a job well or you can wear many hats and do them poorly. There is nothing wrong with refusing an extra hat when you already have more than you need.

Speck, Thanks for clearing that up. I know every family is different, but I couldn't imagine a parent not wanting their son's grandfather being involved with them. I had a hunch you meant step-father. This problem is more common than you might think. In most cases (but not always) the child ends up with the mother after a divorce. He probably is living with his step-father and sees his dad a couple of week-ends a month. That all depends on who has custody and what the visitation rights are. Not all parent and step parents like each other. I've seen cases where they do get along and there would be no conflict with both being involved. I've seen other cases where fist fights would most likely occur. Did the step-father come up with the scouting idea and the dad is throwing a monkey wrench in the works or vice versa? Is the dad trying to prevent his son from having a meaningful relationship with his step-father? Will being invloved in baseball and scouts at the same time conflict with one another or would the two dad's pull the boy different directions with each activity? Is it fair to expect the step-dad to back out of any involvement with the boy at all?

E old buddy, To learn the latest techniques in arm twisting, tail kicking, tear jerking and guilt tripping. What did you think?

I'm somewhat confused by your post. Do you mean father-in-law or step-father? The father-in-law would be the boy's grandfater. Why would the dad be concerned about the boy's grandfather wanting to be involved in something with him? There is no reason why both can't be involved. Scouting is family oriented. We had a Cub whose dad was a registered leader, but his grandfather never missed a campout with the boy and his dad. One other point, at 11 years old, the boy would not be eligible for Cub Scouts. He needs to join a Boy Scout Troop.

Last week, a fellow ASM and I took three of our scouts acting as grubmasters to the grocery store. We were all in uniform. We passed an elderly lady who stopped and saluted the boys. It was the Cub salute, but it was the thought that counted. Her grown grandson's had been in scouting and she was thrilled to see our boys out in public in uniform.

Fuzzy, Wow! You sure read something into my post that certainly wan't there. I believe that if you go read my over 1100 posts you will be hard pressed to find where I ever vebally abused anyone on this board. Yes, council receives funding from a variety of sources. Even so, most councils still seem to struggle with their budget. I said it was advantageous to EVERYONE if EVERYONE does something to contribute. Even if the contribution is of the sweat variety. As I said, this whole thing got way overblown. A unit should live by the same oath and law that we expect individual boys to live by. To not do so is irresponsible. Part of scouting is service to self and others. Since we all make up the BSA, we owe it to ourselves and everyone else involved in scouting to service our organization. I'm sorry if you felt abused. I don't see how claiming a scout is thrifty is abusive. A unit should be thrifty too. A unit should be providing the opportunities for their scouts to earn money and pay their way. It is nice that council has camperships, but if we are all doing our job, they should rarely be needed. But when they are needed, they won't be there if we don't support the council financially with cold hard cash.

Let me say this for the record. We are all in this for the boys....well, at least the majority of us. That includes people at the district and council level. This is getting blown out of proportion. No one is suggesting that financial support of the council by a unit is a litmus test for getting a campership. But when funds are tight and there are more requests than funds, someone has to make the decision of who gets what. All things being even, it is quite possible that the person making the decision will remember what one unit contributes (whether it be money or sweat) over another unit that does not. On the other hand, they might just put the boys in alphabetical order and start at the top until the funds are gone. Heck, they might hang them on the wall and throw darts. They might read tea leaves. The bottom line is it is advantageous to everyone involved if the units do their best to support their parent organization to ensure that camperships are available to anyone who needs them. To not do so is neither loyal, friendly, kind or thrifty or to help other people at all times.

Fuzzy, If you really want to understand the definition of the word rant, listen to the endless hours of political talk radio. It is the pure essence of ranting. John, Logic should replace interpretation when you see a gray area between the black and white. Logic is a lost art in today's society.

Ed, I agree in principle, but how does the council office know that Bobby needs it worse than Tommy? What has Bobby's troop done to try to help him financially from within the troop. Evidently they have not tried raising funds.....at least not to help out the council that they are going to for help. Charity starts at home. Someone has to make the hard decision and those that are charitable will probably receive more charity when it is requested. You know as well as I do that there are scouters who think that their council already has too much money and/or don't spend it the way it should be spent. These are the guys who don't see any value in supporting the council financially, but come with their hat in their hand for a free handout. They want to keep everything at the unit level until it benefits them to go outside the unit. You can't have it both ways.

Ed, If two troops are going to the same camp on the same weekend and request the same campsite, I'd give it to the one that participates in the clean ups over the one who does not. They can't both have it. No one said that they would NOT get any cash when requesting a campership. But if funds are tight and it comes down to a request from a troop that supports the financial needs of the council over a troop that doesn't, I'm sure some decision making comes into play. Life is a series of choices. The choices you make often affect the next set of choices you are presented with. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

E, A scout is loyal. I hope that dietician you find so attractive is "she who must be obeyed"!

Just think about it. If we camped online, we'd never get rained on and could break camp DRY! I think I've only been on one totally dry campout in the last year and half. For Oklahoma, that is almost a statistical impossibility. Just ask EagleDad. We have a campout this weekend and the forcast is 100% for rain.