SR540Beaver

Pack, Duplicates? What are you, a light weight?

We are a new troop of 10 boys and do not have a trailer yet. We load everything into the back of our trucks and SUV's to go camping. It can get tight, but so far we have managed. It would be nice to have a trailer. Currently we have troop gear spread between various garages since our charter organization is small and has no storage area available to us. We have to round all of our gear up and hope we don't forget anything. A trailer would provide us storage, convenience and a little breathing room in the vehicles. The SM and my fellow ASM all have towing packages on our vehicles, so I can't envision us ever being unable to pull the trailer. If we ever had an instance where none of us were going on the campout, there wouldn't be a campout......and we always camp.

In our old pack, we established a policy to pay for adult training as long as there was enough money in the pack account and it would not impact the program adversely. Adults paid the same as cubs for outings. We started a brand new troop in June. Currently, the vast majority of our leaders are all WB trained. The majority of other training that costs anything is not beyond $20 or so. We may create a policy in the future that calls for paying for adult training, but right now we are in the process of raising funds to buy needed equipment. Training costs will be a "sacrifice" by the adult needing training until we have more cash.

E, I have a twin brother. I am now wondering if we were not triplets and somehow you got separated from us at birth? I'm also wondering if our wives were separated at birth too? I have to hide the garbage bags from her.

Pete, We kind of got our "bluff" in on our scouts early. We are a new troop of ten 11 and 12 year old boys. We didn't require a uniform (can't), but we did tell them that we intended for this troop to be a fully uniformed troop and left it at that. All adult leaders always wear a full uniform by choice. In no time at all, they all started showing up in uniform. The new boys have even fretted over the fact that all they have is a shirt. We've told them that it is OK to just have part of the uniform until they can eventually get all the pieces. That might be harder with an established troop with older boys where a precedent has already been set. What I would do is make it known that boy leaders are supposed to set an example and that the adult leadership expects them to support the full uniform. Remind boys who want to run for positions of leadership what your expectations are. I visited a troop where there was a hodge podge of clothing, but each and every boy leader as well as the adults were in uniform. It eventually trickles down. There is strength in numbers. If everyone else is in uniform and you aren't, you stick out like a sore thumb and it is easier to dress like a "dork" when you can blend into the crowd of other "dorks".

Scoutnut, I don't disagree with your comment about understanding the behavior. However, there are a number of parents that use that to excuse their son's actions. We have a scout in our troop who is ADD. He used to be in our pack as well. I swore that we would not go to the same troop that he did because of his behavior. Guess what, we ended up in the same troop. This boy has been allowed to get away with murder at home and has always had his behavior excused because of his disability. He has meds, but his mom doesn't like to give them to him because he "just isn't himself" when he is one them. I've seen him off of them (95% of the time) and I've seen him on them. When he is off of them, he is a holy terror. When he is on them, he acts like any other boy in the troop. I think she has just grown accustomed to his behavior while the rest of us see it as bad. I won't bore you with the list of things he has done. It is long. Just this past weekend on the campout, he yelled at his mother in front of everyone foe her to "get her freakin' hands off of him". The SM decided that one more outburst would get him an off schedule BOR to the committee since his talks with him was getting little to no results. He showed up to our meeting this week on his meds and was focused, actually thoughtful, contributed to the meeting and fairly well behaved overall. I don't see what his mom gains by leaving him off his meds so he can be "himself" when "himself" is always a discipline problem and a disruption? The other boys have a right to do their scouting without constant disruptions by this boy. It is unfair for this mom to subject everyone else to his antics because she wants to excuse his actions and let him be "a boy being a boy".

John, I'm from the OK council you were talking about. I'm not sure why they wouldn't bite on your offer. They do provide the CPR/First Aid training and first aid is covered in the IOLS course. Perhaps they feel it would be redundant. I don't think so. If there is a charge for the training, that shouldn't bother them unless it is high dollar. The CPR/First Aid course they provide costs something like $5 to attend. Our SM is the District Trainer Chair for our district. Perhaps we could offer the training at the district level to any interested persons. I'm sure he would have to get approval from the Council Training Chair to add something that is not standard however. He is gone right now serving on staff for Wood Badge. I'll try to remember to bring it up with him next week.

Bob, This thread is much better than the one we've been in that old Yaworski started on the subject over at www.scoutingforums.org. The folks here seem to get it and discuss it in a mature manner.

pack, No, no, no.......we don't want FOG back. Since being banned here, he has settled in at another scouting board and is playing the same old games there.

cjmiam, Actually, you can have a charter without a traditional organization like a school, church, VFW post or Masonic Lodge. A "Concerned Citizens" group can be a charter. I know, because our DE told us about it and that is how our Troop started this past June. They are not very common to my knowledge and I assume that is why you seldom hear of them. Our group was called Concerned Parents of OKC and we borrowed space from a church that was the charter to our old Pack. They would only allow us to use the space until the Pack started their new year. Our preference was to find a charter organization, but our efforts failed to turn one up. I looked long and hard and was turned down flat numerous times before I did find a church that thought a Scout Troop would fit nicely into their outreach plans. I'd like to think it was a desire by myself and our quality leaders that got us to start this troop and eventually ferret out a "real" charter so we could continue delivering a quality program. In our case, it wasn't the charter that came first, it was quality leaders.

BW, I'm working from memory. Never quote me when I'm working from memory! It will make you look as bad as me. I'll have to take a look at the class schedule to see if I got it right or not.

Our Pow Wow Plus (University of Scouting) this year will include a six hour training session for Den Chiefs. It is the only youth class offered at the adult training venue. I don't know how enrollment is going for this class.

Before it comes up, raffles are a no no too. It is a game of chance. We had a dad who could get us a side of beef for free and wanted to raffle it off. We told him we couldn't do it, even though we had no doubts it would make good money. The idea was advanced that maybe we could sell a candy bar with a raffle ticket attached. They would actually be receiving a product for a price with the added benefit of getting a side of beef. The talk died down and we never presented it to the Council to get their ruling on it.

We all know the old joke about how a man will drive around lost for hours before he will pull over and ask for directions. I've seen that happen in scouting too. Our SM is our District Trainer. He says his worst students are Eagle Scouts. They seem to think they know it all. He himself is an Eagle Scout. His view is that yes, they know a lot about scouting from a 2o year old boy's view. That does not automatically translate into knowing current adult training and BSA policy today. When I attended the SM Specific training, we had a guy there who admitted that the only reason he was taking the course was because he was selected to attend the Jamboree as an adult leader and he was required to have the training. His feeling was that he had been doing this for years and they had nothing they could teach him. He actually brought work in a briefcase that he kept looking at throughout the meeting. When I took the IOLS class, same thing. Many of the SM's were grumbling about having done this for years and didn't see the point. These were the guys wearing jeans with their uniform shirts. When someone came to the course to recruit for Wood Badge, they rolled their eyes, shuffled around and stared at the ground. Wood Badge? We don't need no stinkin' Wood Badge. I was flabberghasted! What makes these guys think they know so much? Because they've been doing it for years? What if they've been doing it wrong for years? As an old baseball coach told me once, "practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent". Practice wrong and you'll always do it wrong. Good baseball is all about fundamentals. So is Scouting. Learn, practice, learn, practice. There is always something new to learn. Leadership is developed, not bestowed. Quality units come from quality leadership. Trained leadership. Leadership with an open mind that is always willing to learn more, adapt and apply. When we think we know it all and have it all figured out, we are going to provide a pretty static and dull program. Why bother if we are just going to phone it in?

cajuncody, I think you made Bob's argument for him. Teaching boys timeless values cost you pennies while the boys who spent big bucks to get a trophy to put on a shelf got little more than about 89 cents worth of wood and plastic. Which unit get the most out of the program? Your boys learned that hard work is sometimes it's own reward. That they can do something on their own. How to do their best. How they can do it better next time. Etc. You applied the aims and methods for little more than the cost of a PWD kit and got a great return. The other unit applied money and got little in return.

Spider, I was going to suggest that you urge your committee to go get training. But there is a better answer. Since you have 12 on your committee, ask the District Training chair or his representative to come to your committee and provide the training to everyone at the same time. It can be custom fit to your needs with group discussion taking place in the meeting. Everyone receives the same training at the same time and hopefully will all be singing from the same page afterwards.

Ed, Do you throw a box of crackers out after you eat the first one off the top, or do you dig a little deeper for more. You asked for clarification and it was provided in subsequent posts. Asked and answered, let's keep moving.

Ed, It was clarified earlier in the thread. If it is still unclear to you, I don't know why. The program is the program.....period. How the leadership of a given unit provides the program is the part that keeps it from being identical. Some follow it, some don't. But the program itself exists unchanged, regardless of whether it is used correctly or not. No two programs will LOOK totally alike because no two programs are being run by the same leadership. How much clearer can it be made for you? Money has nothing to do with how a given leader provides and teaches leadership in the program. With all due respect, I thought we had finally rid ourselves of the antagonist angle when FOG got himself booted. Let's keep the threads helpful, friendly, courteous, kind and cheerful please.

Ed, Ed, Ed, Bob made very clear what he meant. Units won't be alike in that they have a nice cushy scout hut built out behind their CO or a big bus pulling a trailer to transport the boys. The boys won't have $500 MSR tents and other expensive gear. The scouting program is not based on the material wealth on the troop. As Bob said, it is judged on the use of the aims and methods. That program is identical for all troops in the US. Why must the glass always be half empty when responding to Bob?

Ed, Why so negative? No one here has suggested taking food off the table to buy a uniform. What they have suggested is the unit making an opportunity for the boys to raise funds independently of Mom and Dad forking over the milk money. How can you possibly argue with that? A Scout is thrifty. He pays his own way. My son and I are both going to Jamboree next year. Our combined cost is $3,800.00. That does not include the three required uniforms for each of us or spending money. While it bites into my budget, I can fortunately afford it. I have to pay my way for sure. I could pay my son's way. But I'm making him work for it. I organized and ran a Jamboree fundraiser for 100 boys in 24 counties. Some poor, some well off, some from large cities, some from small towns. My son raised $352.00 selling first aid kits. I was saddened to see that only 30 boys out of 100 even participated and some of those 30 only bothered to raise $15. One kid raised $900.00. It can be done if you are willing to put forth the effort. There may be extreme exceptions to the rule like Cajuncody's where the community is too small to do something as simple as a carwash and everyone is too poor to pay for a carwash. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. It may be a very real reality in some places limited by their locale, but not in most cities.

BP, Mt father-in-law worked as a teacher/principal/bus driver on the Navajo reservation for many many years. My wife was one of twelve white kids in school out in the middle of nowhere. The "towns" she lived in consisted of a few shacks, the school and the teacher's housing and the kids were bussed in from miles around. I've visited those places numerous times. I know exactly what you are talking about. Many Navajo's have homes with dirt floors and no running water. Many of the same Navajo's also have brand new Nike shoes and late model vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against these people. Many of them live a "traditional" life because of their beliefs. The point is, where there is a will, there is a way. As I said earlier, a carwash cost pratically nothing, especially if you can get soap, sponges and buckets donated. Most local Councils can find a way to assist if asked. They can find the money internally or know of people willing to help with a few bucks to pay for the supplies. It is no different than helping with camperships. A plea can be made at the District Roundtable. Heck, you could pass a hat around. I'd throw a few bucks in to help an underpriviliged troop wanting supplies for a fundraiser. I won't know by osmosis. The need has to be known. The unit leaders need to teach the unit that anything is possible if you think it thru, make a plan and work the plan. Sometimes you hit obstacles and have to work your way around them. But if you want it bad enough, you can make it happen. To just say it can't happen is to give in to defeat and perpetuate the cycle.

Typically: 5 yrs old - Kindergarten - too young to join 6 yrs old - 1st grade - Tiger 7 yrs old - 2nd grade - Wolf 8 yrs old - 3rd grade - Bear 9 yrs old - 4th grade - Webelos 1 10 yrs old - 5th grade - Webelos 2 11 yrs old - 6th grade - Boy Scouts

There are instances, especially in poor rural environments like cajuncody's where even raising money to buy uniforms can be difficult. But I tend to think that is the exception rather than the rule. Our troop is a full uniform troop except for the three new boys we signed up in the past month. They are working on it. We have some members of the troop like myself who are not rich, but live very comfortably. We have areas of town that are affluent and areas that are poor. It is not uncommon at Halloween to see van loads of poorer kids being dropped off in the nicer neighborhoods to get the "good" candy. I had some obviously "underpriviliged" kids coming thru my neighborhood a few weeks ago doing a fundraiser for an inner city organization they belonged to. My point is, in most instances the troop can take the boys where the money is to raise money. It costs little to hold a carwash. If you can manage to get a store to donate supplies and a store with good traffic flow to let you hook up your hoses, the proceeds are pure profit. You may have to hold several to get enough for full uniforms, but it is possible if the leadership and the boys are willing to do a little work.

EagleinKY, I found it curious that you say you and the ASM's are invited and usually attend. From my viewpoint, it is essential that you attend. Your SPL should be there too. While a lot of "business" can take place offline during the month, the committee meeting is where the boy and adult leaders should be reporting on how the program is going and making known any needs they have. It is true that SM's and ASM's are not "voting" members, but they are an integral part of the committee process.

1) What type of scouting unit is it? New troop with 10 scouts registered currently. 2) Do you feel you have a well functioning committee? Yes. We have no "trouble makers". Everyone has a role and fulfills their responsibilities, are committed, gets along and works well as a team. Some are fully trained and some partially trained. We have only been a troop since June and the people who are not trained will be attending the Troop Committee Challenge and other training at POW WOW Plus (Scouting University) during the first weekend of November. 2) How many memebers are on it and what are their specific assignments? We currently have 6 committee members. We have the chairperson, a treasurer, equipment coordinator, secretary, advancement chair and fundraising coordinator. The SM is our District Training Chair and functions as the troop training chair, I'm an ASM and serve as the activity/camping coordinator and our other ASM serves as Chaplain.