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About whitewater

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  1. According to Wikipedia: "Baden-Powell wrote this alternative oath called the Outlander Promise for Scouts who could not, for reasons of conscience, recognize a duty to a King, for individuals or members of religions that do not worship a deity, and for members of orthodox religions that do not use the name of God in secular settings." It seems it intended to cover religions that didn't worship a diety (such as Budhism) or those that don't use the word god in certain settings. I don't see any mention of atheists so it doesn't appear to be inconsistent with BP's belief in the importan
  2. I think another reason it's such a big deal and why the FBI is involved is that there is considerable money involved as well. It costs money to sign up a boy ($10?) and these fees for underprivilidged boys where paid for by contributions by various organizations. That's where the fraud comes in.
  3. Merlyn, I already mentioned that the Girl Scouts' lease was excusively negotiated and was approved at the same meeting as the BSA lease. I believe the Campfire Girls and YMCA leases were also exclusively negotiated. There is nothing illegal or wrong with an exclusive negotiation. The City received value in the deal. The point I'm trying to make is NOT that the other deals might be illegal (they aren't). My point is if you are going to make it more difficult for a religious organization to lease public land then you are being hostile toward religion which is illegal viewpoint discr
  4. So Merlyn, you are saying that the BSA should be held to a different standard than other groups? There were at least 8 other groups that were allowed exclusive negotiations for leases. If the BSA is not allowed to do the same because of their views, then that is unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination. Whether or not the BSA calls itself a religious organization is irrelevant- what matters is the legal definition. I can call myself a religious organization but the IRS isn't going to give me a tax break.
  5. Merlyn, You stated that (regarding the BSA lease): "That's not relevant - some or all of those leases may not be legal, either. That doesn't change the fact that the city didn't follow its own open bidding process for the BSA lease." It is only irrelevant because the judge made it so in his twisted logic. It should be very relevant in order to show that the City leases parkland out in a religion-neutral manner. Now it can be argued that the BSA is being discriminated against because of their viewpoint, and not given the same deal as other groups. Viewpoint discrimination is
  6. Merlyn, The $1/year lease that was not open to bidding was the same deal granted to quite a few other groups. (In the terms of the lease the Scouts also pay $2500/year in administrative fees.) In fact the Girl Scouts' lease was extended in the same way, without bidding, and was approved at the same hearing. Of the 123 leases to non-profit groups that San Diego has granted, 96 of them pay less than the Boy Scouts do when you add in the administrative fee. In return for the low rent, San Diego receives development of the property and doesn't have to maintain it- a considerable savings.
  7. Merlyn writes: "No. But the first amendment covers much more than that; it doesn't prohibit "establishment of A religion" but "establishment of religion". " That just illustrates the true heart of the argument. Most of us involved in Scouting realize that belief in God is only a part of the program. The aim of Scouting is to develop good citizens and a belief in God is a tool chosen to arrive at that goal. The primary purpose of the program is secular. And I find it hard to believe that the average observer equates Boy Scouts with religion. I also believe the San Diego case i
  8. I continue to take exception when people call the BSA dishonest and unethical. I will admit to them being somewhat inept sometimes, though, especially when it comes to PR. I think the policy makers in the BSA believe strongly that it is not improper for a school to sponsor a Troop, as do I. They did consider it prudent to sever ties with schools in order to avoid the inevitable expenses of defending their position. That doesn't mean they now believe their original position was wrong or that they are now somehow unethical. They just felt their time and money was better spent elsewhere.
  9. Since when is joining a private organization, or even a club, a "right?" When my son was 5 he wanted to play baseball but the local team didn't start taking kids until they were in first grade. He didn't meet the eligibility requirements, so he didn't play.
  10. I have no problem with a Scout coming back from camp with only 1 or 2 merit badges if they had fun and learned some Scouting along the way. The primary purpose of a long term camp is to practice the patrol method and everything that goes along with it. I hate that so many camps have become merit badge factories. I think thats the reason many camps have dining hall cooking now- so they can cram in some more time for merit badge classes. I also have a problem with the quality of merit badges earned at camp, but thats another issue.
  11. I've seen several posters remark that homosexuality is immoral and others seem to think that there is nothing wrong with it. I think another way to look at is whether or not homosexuality is normal. The people who believe that homosexuality is OK also tend to believe that it is an inate trait- something people are born with. The others tend to believe that it is nothing more than a behavior. It should be noted that, despite some people's best efforts, there has never been a biological component of homosexuality identified. There are also groups that still consider homosexuality to be a
  12. I don't know of any cases where the BSA has had to directly pay anything to the ACLU, but defending itself against the attacks has been very expensive. I think what evmori is referring to are the large fees that the ACLU collects when it wins a civil rights case. Title 42 Section 1988 gives a court "discretion" to award attorney fees to the prevailing party in civil rights cases but I don't know of any cases where the court refused to award the fees (though they may be smaller than requested). That is our tax dollars. Last February the City of San Diego agreed to pay $950,000 to the
  13. Sorry Packsaddle- I guess I misinterpreted your comments. I thought that you were implying that the BSA WAS bigoted and hateful in their policies and SHOULD be more open, inclusive and tolerant. My point was that I have never seen bigotry or hatefulness practiced on the unit level. I do disagree with you that the government has interacted with the BSA illegally and that the law is fairly clear here. I think the the law is somewhat muddy here. (Although I do admit to seeing both sides of the argument.) And if the BSA believes they are correct in their position that does not make them di
  14. I believe the Spiral Scouts are also touted as an alternative to the BSA because they welcome homosexuals.
  15. I sorry but I have a real problem with anyone that calls the Boy Scouts bigoted and hateful. I've been involved with Scouts over 30 years and I've never seen bigotry and hatred in the program. Are the Girl Scouts bigoted and hateful for not allowing boys to join? What's the old saying? Everyone's crazy, the ones to watch out for are the ones that say they're not. I've found that often the people that are complaining the loudest about bigotry are really bigots themselves.
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