skeptic

Not sure what the problem might be. The two in the background are wearing non BSA shirts, probably British from the look. And, as pointed out, the main singer is wearing a very dated shirt. Are these singers even from the U.S.? Lots of noise for nothing, IMO.

John in KC; While it may be out of our control, it still effects us indirectly from the point of view of image. In that regard, it seems very possible that this is another inaccurate portrayal of info based on incomplete or skewed data. That would be something to make known to the public it would seem. I would not hold my breath to see any corrections, if they are needed.

They say their figures do not include pensions and so on, but they also indicate the material is up to two years old, depending on various info available. So, is this reflective of Mr. Mazucca, or his predecessor? And, if the latter, does it include, like in the case of a council exec somewhere, severance and upfront retirement? Still, seems high, no matter what.

No Horizon, they do not; but you may interpret it as you choose. That is the real problem with this whole issue. There are "idiots" on both sides that say things, and do things that twist everything out of context. Just because someone, who says they represent a particular group or view says something that contradicts the actual statements does not change the actual statement. Make your own choices and live with them. But please quit trying to force these choices on others with whom you disagree. In regard to your comment about the Episcopalians. They have had a huge split in their group. And, I suspect that you are correct that a church that makes that particular choice may not be given a charter. Again, it is their choice. Whether that is good or bad, is not the point. They do have other options in the world. And the scouts would not be saying no due to religious factors; rather it would relate to the "Avowed" issue.

My card from 1959 is the same as all the other rank cards of the time, except it has the dangle Eagle in a circular background at the top. Same for the palm card. To make things worse, for some reason I carried them for a while and managed to fall in the water with them in my wallet. Now they are soiled, ragged, and the ink ran in places. Still, they have a special place in the memory book. As pointed out already, it is not the card, or the certificate that makes one an Eagle.

But you can love your neighbor, yet not love his choice in lifestyle. As usual, no one on either side of this, here on the boards, or elsewhere, is likely to change their minds. On the other hand, it does get tiresome to have a few individuals who feel the right to insult others because of interpretations of things. BSA, almost all agree and understand, has the right to make these rules. They see them as reflective of the central ideas of the program. No where do they say these individuals are "bad" people, or should be ostracized from society; only that they are not examples of a style of living they wish to hold up on a daily basis to impressionable youth. Most of us understand there is really no difference between this and saying similar things about a chronic drunk, or a known abusive person, or someone that cannot be civil most of the time and control their emotions and language. The difference is that for some reason, these other life choices are not held up as PC issues. Few of us will have issues with Gays as long as they simply live their lives and do not make it something they need to "show off" for some reason. Those are the ones that likely have been around successfully in the program and could fall out of the tree, as someone noted. But why are you shaking the tree in the first place? On the other hand, atheism and, to a lesser extent, agnosticism relate to specific elements of scouting. And those elements are not, nor should not be up for debate. With the "broad" definitions allowed within the program of religious issues, there is little room for complaint, other than to be obdurate and obstructionist. Those who insist BSA needs to change the core principle are simply out in left field. They need to find something better to worry about. Unfortunately, this debate (or too often harangue) will continue unabated for a while longer, then get brought up again and again because for some reason people just have to try and make others believe as them, no matter how obvious it is it won't happen.

Looks as if they have the whole new book up on line. Take a look at this address. http://www.pilandonline.com/BSHB_web/ Interesting material, and links to related sites outside of scouts. Seems to be a huge advancement in this area.

I find it somewhat interesting to see Nick's comments. A few years back I breached the subject to a small group of my older scouts, over 16, who asked about an incident where a guy verbally attacked us at a public event. Their response was just about the same as Nick's. Whether or not a few individuals will continue to insist that this is not representative, everything I see in schools and actual interaction shows a discomfort and choice NOT to interact by a large majority. On the other hand, most of the same individuals will state that those who do make that choice have that right and should be left to pursue it as they choose. They just need to keep to themselves about it. Take it as it is written. Reality is too often overlooked for the pushing a political agenda. Nough said.

Nick; Unless a scout has a physical problem, there is no reason he should not be able to do the swim requirements. If this means learning to overcome a fear of water, then it is a growing experience as well. But, because being able to at least swim at a minimal level is really a safety issue, it should stay. It is like suggesting that because a boy has trouble with math, he should not have to do personal management. Unless he is challenged, then he just needs to overcome the obstacle. Part of growing up is facing challenges; and this is one that basically all scouts need to face. When I was a scout, back in the dark ages, we still had to learn morse code or semaphore. While the code itself was easy for me, the skill at sending and receiving was truly difficult. It took me months to learn it; but the challenge was met, and I grew from it. If we simply allow anything that is not immediately achievable to be done away with, we really have a pretty weak program. Just my thought at the moment.

While I have no specific proof, I have been led to believe that BSA has suggested a merger with GS a couple of times, but been rebuffed by the national organization. In our area, there have been a number of GS troops that would have gladly joined with a same age BS group if they could. That also goes for the girls in the 11-14 age group; they would join BS if they were allowed, but have no interest in the GS because, for the most part, it is too focused on home and craft stuff. Personally, as long as you have the male/female leadership needed, I would not see it as a problem. I know the two or three times we have camped in proximity to GS groups over the years and had interaction with a campfire and so on the boys were far better behaved, and the girls were not intimidated nearly as much as the boys.

Since there seems to be so many with ideas as to why Eagle is not what it once was, lets have different levels. Perhaps: Basic requirements: 21 merit badges. Cooking required, but variants for level of Eagle. Still require basics, e.g. first aid, swimming or alternates, lifesaving or emergency prep, 3 citizenships, personal management. Personal fitness would have options to fit the level. URBAN EAGLE: No outdoor requirements, but more focus on everything urban. Would require learning to cook, but only in a kitchen. Project would be city focused. PF option would be very minimal. Would need to earn one badge from either public health, safety, or fire safety, sort of like the old groupings from the 50's.. New mb for cell phone communications required, or optionally, computers. CAMP EAGLE: All of Urban Eagle requirements, plus outdoor requirements that could be gotten in drive-in or summer camp settings. Charcoal cooking or large gas stoves for the cooking requirement in addition to above. Could sleep in cabins, or pre-pitched tents. Would earn a special "drive-in camping" merit badge with a car and tent; would need 20 nights, but include all summer camp. Project could be urban or other. PF option would be moderate. WILDERNESS EAGLE: All the previous two plus: Camping only in back country settings. Cooking with backpack stoves or wilderness acceptable fires only. Backpacking, pioneering, wilderness survival, and orienteering (with GPS inclusion with basic) all required. Project would be in the wilderness. All of the above, plus camping would be only in tents carried and pitched by themselves; and would be 25 nights, with only one long-term camp allowed. Back country first aid would be a requirement. PF would be strenuous. WILDERNESS EAGLE w/CROSSED PADDLES: Same as Wilderness Eagle, but also require canoeing, and whitewater merit badges. Project would focus on wild rivers, or back country lakes. So, would that make most people happy??? LOL

BadenP: For someone who is so out spoken about things and the honor of scouting, you surely are not setting a very good example. We all have issues with likely many things, and even perhaps a number of people in the program. But your strident attacks are becoming, at least to me, a bit tired. You do not like Mr. Mazzuca; that is your right. But your recent comments are bordering on slander. Perhaps it is time for you to consider your recent posts from a distance, and maybe tone things down a bit. And, who knows, maybe someone else even agrees with me. And just so you know, I too am disappointed in some aspects of the uniform, and even more burned at the increases in prices during such a serious economic downturn. I am also somewhat confused as to why a letter to Mr. Mazzuca has gone without any kind of response from him or his staff. But that is no reason to malign the man. I hope that perhaps more positive will evolve; that some positive changes will be forthcoming as we progress. JMHO

Here is a more responsible story from the Durango Herald. It does not sensationalize the story, nor mislead people with an erroneous headline. http://www.durangoherald.com/sections/News/2009/07/24/Suspect_in_court_for_child_sex_sting/

Actually, an issue could come up if for some reason there were not enough mb's listed for Star of Life with the proper dates that precede the BOR. Say it shows only 5 badges before the Star date, or only 10 before Life. Then he did not meet those requirements according to the data given. So dates earned are very important prior to Eagle.

Same flap never would fly; too many "radical collectors". How would they survive?

Never even seen these; but I would agree that the universal ribbon arrow is all you need.

More hours in the day.

Good advice all around; clean, neat, and accurate depiction of your record within the bounds of the insignia guide. I personally do not feel the option noted by John in K.C. is appropriate. An Eagle board is not an OA event, so the sash is not relevant. The merit badge sash is a must, in my opinion. Good luck.

In August, we will be having an Eagle ceremony in our troop. As we were leaving for camp, the young man's mother told me about "her" letter requests. Apparently, she sent letters to everyone on the relatively long list gleaned from the web. She capped that with, "I even sent one to the Pope". Now, that is great, but they are Baptist. Am I the only one who often wonders how much these letters mean to the young man himself? In this case, at least at the moment, he could care less if he even has a ceremony. While it is great to have these things, would not a few from truly meaningful individuals be more appropriate? It simply seems to me that too much is made of obtaining form letters, for the most part, from important (?)or distinguished people and organizations. What think others here?

Yep; junior college straight out of high school, and had to live away because I was from the middle of the desert. Barely a C average, 2.01 for 60 units after being near top of HS class. Went in service and got out at 25 with G.I. Bill and back to college. Dean's list and B average overall. Grad school after 2 more years, married, full time job, and still a 3.75. Maturity and responsibility seems to have made a difference, at least in my case. Have seen far too many drop out of college early because they were just not ready. Our school counselors might be wise to not push some to hard too soon. It seldom hurts a just out of school teen to work for a living at a menial job. Often, it will focus them in the long run. JMHO

Just a thought: How many within that huge increase would have been better served to have been guided into a trade or other occupational training? It seems to me that we put far too much emphasis on "everyone" going to college. Reality is that many do not want to, are not really able to succeed, and so waste money and time which could have given us more tradesmen, an area in which we are critically short. JMHO

Lisa; You hit the nail pretty squarely. In Ca, the initiative process has severely damaged things too, as many of them were passed without thinking about how they would be paid. Of course, we also have more severe problems with illegal immigrants than much of the country, in that many of our laws allow them to receive services, even though they are here illegally. While most people understand that they do pay some taxes, they do not feel that offsets the cost of the services. There are no easy answers. But somehow we need to find solutions, or we will definitely find ourselves truly on a par with many less fortunate areas of the world. Obviously, some part of this will mean accepting reality.

Don't they have a device that jams signals? I read about some restaurants that were using them. That would be an easy fix I would think.

DesertRat; I got back into the program in Spring, 1976 and was quite surprised at the materials I found. Fortunately, I was in the Topanga District of the old GWC in the San Fernando Valley, and did my introductory training with the infamous Patrones, who were old school for sure. When I went to Philmont for commissioner training in 77, the talk was all about the loss of traditional scouters and the start of the change back to "real" scouting. But I was really glad to see the new handbook that year. I remember getting a free copy that spring given by a scouter there in the Valley to all the active leaders and commissioners. Still have that copy in my collection with the dedication sheet inside.

Lisabob; While it is still nascent, and a long shot, I will not be overly surprised if the drive for a rewritten constitution comes to fruition. Even though so many no longer vote, they might still choose to completely redo the whole governing structure. A few other things that could happen, at least on paper, would be limiting pay to all politicians, taking away perks such as cars and per diem for those earning over a certain amount, and some kind of control on judges that make politically skewed decisions against the will of the people and not based on solid law. As long as the proposition apparatus is in effect, almost anything that takes a club to the so called "governing body" will pass, as people are simply tired of the "business as usual" attitude. I am far more fortunate than many, mostly due to being raised by parents and grand parents that lived through the depression and WWII. Our condo is paid for, and I have a small house in the desert as well. But the next few generations are going to have to relive much of what my parents and grandparents did I am afraid. On the other hand, it could be a major factor in bringing families back together, due to necessity. Time will tell.