shortridge

Beavah: You said "growin' up," which is indeed technically different from "growing up."

I started it here because I saw it as a Council relations issue, not a political one. Nothing's come out of the Philly media on the case since Tuesday.

Same for Wilderness Survival - it's a completely different animal from camping - it doesn't provide a progression of skills, it provides different skills, though some of those skill may be shared. CalicoPenn - I would normally agree with you, except that several years of teaching WS at summer camp left me very discouraged. I was constantly dealing with brand-new Scouts - 10, 11, 12 - who barely knew how to build a campfire, let alone start one with flint & steel or fire-by-friction. Or first-year Scouts who were afraid of the dark trying to spend the night in a lean-to shelter consisting of a tree trunk and two branches. You ought to have a basic level of familiarity in the outdoors to take WS, and holding Camping MB or being First Class is one way to ensure that. These Scouts weren't the majority, but there were enough of them slowing down the group - and being utterly miserable and discouraged themselves because they knew they weren't able to cut the mustard yet - that I often wanted to go smack their Scoutmasters upside their heads for giving them the OK. IMHO, if you don't have the basic skills, you shouldn't be taking the advanced badges. And WS, if done correctly, *is* an advanced badge. Same goes for Pioneering. If you can't tie the basic knots, you shouldn't be diving in and trying to do lashings and build structures. Should skills competence be addressed by the SM during the MB process? Of course it should. That's where the SM's role as gatekeeper comes into play. But I'm pretty jaded after five years of seeing history repeat itself. I simply don't trust most SMs - or worse, the committee member or brand-new ASM who's designated the "summer camp SM" - to do their jobs in that respect. If beefing up the pre-reqs will accomplish that, I'm all for it.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I just noticed the requirements are out for Inventing MB. Looks quite interesting. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-inventing.aspx It's interesting that the resource list directs Scouts to the 1911 Handbook reprint. Supposedly only 10 people earned the original Invention MB.

I really, really hate to say this, because it would have affected me - but Camping MB or First Class should be a pre-req for Wilderness Survival. Scouts shouldn't be going out building sturdy shelters and struggling at fire by friction before they even know how to pitch a tent or start a fire with matches.

C'mon - houseboating would be awesome. Crack open one of Dan Carter Beard's books and build one of those suckers. Then set out. Can't tell me that isn't high adventure.

These are the official rules from the Guide to Safe Scouting. When I construct and run a monkey bridge, especially for Cubs, I have two adult spotters, one on either side; allow one kid on at a time; and constantly inspect the ropes and anchors. Rope Monkey Bridges When constructing monkey bridges, observe the following safety rules: 1. Always follow the steps for constructing monkey bridges outlined in the Pioneering merit badge pamphlet. 2. Before beginning the project, inspect your rope, looking at both the inside fibers and inner strands. Know the size and strength of the type of rope you are using, and its safe working load. 3. Monkey bridges should not be constructed higher than 5 feet above flat-surfaced ground nor longer than 40 feet. Initially, beginners should not span more than 25 feet. 4. Know the effect the knots will have in reducing rope strength and the proper care that rope requires. 5. Rope, especially rope carrying a load, should be checked each day before using. Rope carrying a load and left in place tends to become slack from fatigue and will break under stress. Tighten rope as necessary to maintain the integrity of the original construction. 6. Exercise special care when members of the public are allowed to use these monkey bridges. Establish controls when monkey bridges are constructed outside the camp environment. Station Scouts at each end to control access to the bridge. Allow only one adult at a time on the bridge. Never allow unaccompanied children on the bridge. Shut down the bridge when any repairs are being made and do not reopen until the adult leader has approved the repairs. 7. Any activity on rope swings, monkey bridges, slide-for-life, or similar devices that are located over water must comply with Safe Swim Defense.

From the Inquirer: When the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2000 that the Boy Scouts of America could set rules as a private organization, even if that meant excluding homosexuals, the Philadelphia chapter disagreed with the exclusionary policy. The local group, the Cradle of Liberty Council, thought scouting should be open to everyone. It even adopted a resolution saying it opposed any form of discrimination. But Bill Dwyer, a retired chief executive of the council, told a federal court jury Tuesday that he and other leaders realized "in our heart of hearts" that "we couldn't repudiate totally the national position. They would put us out of business." http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20100616_Trial_opens_in_suit_over_Boy_Scouts_headquarters.html#axzz0r1kdDRjL

Journalists seek Scouts' files on abuse suspects By TIM FOUGHT The Associated Press Monday, June 14, 2010; 4:51 PM PORTLAND, Ore. -- News organizations asked a Portland judge on Monday to make public more than 1,000 files on suspected child molesters - records a jury used in April when it found the Boy Scouts of America liable for $20 million in damages. The Oregon Constitution's requirement for open courts requires the release of the files that were evidence in the case of Kerry Lewis, a man abused in the early 1980s, the organizations' lawyer argued in court. The Scouts' lawyer said the judge has discretion with such records and releasing them would damage the Scouts' ability to get a fair trial in upcoming abuse cases. Five more await trial in Portland. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/14/AR2010061403340.html

The HWT online module froze up my computer more times than anything in recent memory except a massive spyware infestation. Yuck.

BadenP: Can you tell us what source folks can cite to ask for that accounting? Lisabob and others: You can get a council's IRS Form 990s, an informational tax form, for free at guidestar.org. You'll have to create a (free) account to view the PDFs.

The Philadelphia BSA rent trial starts today: www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa/20100614_Trial_over_local_Boy_Scout_headquarters_begins.html#axzz0qqWwQghf It comes down to $200,000 a year the city is asking for in rent. NPR reports Cradle of Liberty says it'll have less money to spend on programs if ordered to pay: www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127827319 FYI: The council's 2008 IRS Form 990 (viewed at guidestar.org) reports it spent $3.96 million on general council program for Scouts, plus $227,470 on Scoutreach programs. Total expenses were $6.5 million.

John - Not to get too into politics, but I don't view Scouting so much as a free-market vs. communism issue as a centralized regime vs. local control issue. Theoretically, the Soviets had democracy. They just restricted elections to a single party. Theoretically, a council is controlled by the CORs. It just doesn't advertise that fact. That's how we need to exert influence and control over the council-level staffers and the SE. But since very few of them do, the status quo continues. (I also think that's the answer to Scoutfish's question - to have your COR write a sternly worded letter to the SE and complain. But if you're like most units and have a CORINO (COR In Name Only), you're pretty much out of luck.) I like the free-market idea in Scouting to a certain limit. At some point a council needs to have a guaranteed base of income to keep camps and basic operations running. That's what fundraising is supposed to provide for - or so I'd always thought. Personally, I would like to have it spelled out exactly how much a particular program or camp costs. Now, when a parent pays for summer camp, he or she is under the assumption that that fee covers everything. But it doesn't - it can't. Increasing the fees to cover all expenses would result in huge sticker shock - but also educate a heck of a lot of parents and leaders.

Other possible costs: - Facility rental - Teaching supplies (laptop, projector, whiteboard, flip pad, markers, etc.) - Perhaps a small something for the trainer's time - at least covering the trainer's meals, IMHO My council has a no-charge policy for training sessions of a day or less.

Assuming my guessterpritation is correct and it indeed did involve two CITs - The patrol method involves a natural patrol with its own leader selected by the members, not a motley crew of nearly 20 Scouts led by junior camp staffers who may or may not know the boys well.

Eagle92 - I'm a bit confused about the fire you reference. I found mentions of a 2002 fire in Utah involving Scouts with no adult leaders present that resulted in a $6.5 million payout. Is that the one According to two media accounts (links below) of the lawsuit filed afterwards, there were almost 20 Scouts involved - so it wasn't a patrol - who were left under the leadership of 15-year-old "counselors." It also happened in late June on or near a Scout camp. Reading between the lines, to me, it sounds like two CITs were sent out to run a Wilderness Survival overnight and didn't bother to check the fire when they left. I see that as more of a reason for councils to follow BSA rules on camp staffing and the age of counselors than to potentially ban all independent patrol activities. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5359048/ http://www.deseretnews.com/article/660201228/Boy-Scouts-settle-Utah-suit-over-2002-fire.html

... which is why it's important to make that distinction between Cubs and Boy Scouts/Venturers. Different strokes for different folks. As written, the "policy" that JoeBob's folks put out is indeed a myth. Even when applied solely to Cubs, not the entire "BSA," it's clearly incorrect, as you've demonstrated. Question, though: Where would vampires and zombies fall on the living/monster scale? I mean, they're technically undead humans, aren't they?

ScoutNut - The distinction is between Cubs and Boy Scouts/Venturing. Animal targets are OK for the latter, not OK for the former. And even when it comes to Cubs, insects are certainly "living things"! So the blanket statement that JoeBob presented is, in fact, a myth. "BSA policies" clearly *do not* prohibit the use of targets resembling any living thing.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Complete myth. Camp Program and Property Management (2007 printing) notes: "Animal target faces are most exciting for Scout and Venturer use. These are available through the Supply Division." It also suggests that handicraft areas "make animal cutouts for gun and bow targets." http://srbsa.org/public/services/program/docs/2008/20-920-camp-prog-prop-mgmt-2007.pdf Many thanks to the former Southern Region folks for posting this.

What Lisabob said, in triplicate. RUN, do not walk, and find another pack. The CM and other DLs have clearly shown they don't have the first clue about how to do their jobs, or about the basic rules of safety. And now that the boys have experienced Camp Runamuck, putting the genie back in the bag is not going to be easy for them. Since this happened at a resident camp, I'm curious - what did the camp staff say when encountering these wild urinators, reckless firebuilders and inappropriate singers? Did the camp commissioner visit the campsite at any point (as is his/her job) and witness any of this behavior? Did the staff have any programs on fire safety, and what was the reaction from the DLs and CM?

Of course he's over-committing himself. That's a given - the CM should not also be a DL. Starting up a troop is going to burn him out fast. But this sounds like it's bigger than just one guy in one pack. In the best of worlds, you'd be able to share your experiences, he'd listen, and turn to other options. But realistically, with the DE talking in this guy's ear and pushing him to start a new troop, *your* options are limited. If someone tells that you're going to make a great Scoutmaster and this new troop will be great and it'll be great for your boys ... well, you're probably not going to listen to the person uttering words of cautious advice. One bright spot is that as one of the Key 3, you have your DE's ear - and maybe can work on him to change his mind and realize that this troop has the huge potential to fail. Five boys is the bare minimum needed to charter, so if one drops out, that's it. And while a new unit may look great on the DE's numbers this year, he's going to have to pull the same trick next year, plus one, to show improvement to his bosses.

So I just looked in the Insignia Guide and saw several interesting points that I didn't even know where in there. - "Official headgear may be worn while the unit or individual is participating in an indoor formal ceremony or service duty, except in religious institutions where custom forbids." So hats are *not* mandatory, even for youth - see the "may." - "In any informal indoor activity where no official ceremony is involved, the headgear is removed as when in street clothes." Interesting! I really didn't know that was official policy.

If hats were required, I'd be out of the program. I'm like you, Scoutfish - I put something on the top of my head, and bam, I'm sweating buckets. I only wear a hat in the coldest of cold weather, and even so often have to take it off when I'm engaging in physical activity. Thank goodness they're optional!

Yep, they're allowed. It's pretty vague, but the Guide to Safe Scouting puts it thusly: "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

No. 1. What's expected of a parent who's not involved in Scouting is nothing. Let their son stand on his own two feet and learn and enjoy the experience. He'll get a lot more out of it that way.