shortridge

This topic seems to pop up in a new thread about ever couple of months. The complaints (as here) center around paperwork (a single form is too much!), sheath knives (back in my day, we all carried them ...), climbing (why do I have to get trained?) and boat trips (I know how to canoe, why do I have to follow these rules?). You're not being banned from doing anything - there are just rules to follow, mostly reasonable ones. As CalicoPenn said, "what fun things are you being kept from doing?" Beavah, I have a couple of things to respond to. >> It sounds like the camp you visited with the boy complaining about not being able to get in a boat until the third day needs a program overhaul. You assume that it's a regulatory restriction, when in fact it may have been a question of resources. There's no rule in Scouting that says Scouts can't get into a canoe right away. There *are* steps to be taken in the instructional process that include swim checks, review (or teaching) basic strokes, review (or teaching) basic canoe maneuverability, etc. All that takes time, yes. But do you want to just toss a kid in a canoe on a fast-moving river with no instruction? And perhaps there were only a limited number of boats, and the class was large - maybe that's why the disgruntled whippersnapper was moaning. >> You also complain about over-inspections. A large part of my job in a past life as a summer camp staffer was doing inspections, and I can assure you that we didn't inspect because of any Scouting rule or regulation. We inspected tents and equipment at check-in and check-out to make sure some little punk in the previous week hadn't slashed an expensive canvas tent with his knife. (Do you want your troop to be charged for damage caused by another troop?) We inspected campsites daily to build Scout spirit and a sense of competition among the troops by promoting clean living and tidiness. (There was also the matter of sanitation - is the troop keeping the latrines cleaned, or are there feces smeared on the heads? Some adult leaders were oblivious to such things, frighteningly.) Your anti-inspection riff just doesn't hold water, sorry. >> And the first-day camp stuff: Would you prefer that your troop not have medical forms and medication reviewed so that the staff knows about your Scout with hemophilia, not have your actual attendance numbers matched to your campsite so that you're short two tents, not receive last-minute information about changes in the program schedule so that your Scouts are disappointed and not know where the program areas are so that your Scouts show up late to everything?

So we can sew our pants, socks, underwear and shirts together to make a Scout Jumpsuit and avoid missing bits?

Or go analog, and get them 1950s-60s editions of the PLH. A couple bucks on alibris.

Prohibited chemical-fueled equipmentEquipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturers stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning can stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss06.aspx

In my experience, the protocol of posting in an established community generally calls for a newbie to lurk for a while, getting a sense of the board, then post an introduction, then start commenting, in that order. It's no different than in real-life situations. No one would barge in the door of the Moose Lodge or the high school chess club shouting questions and demanding answers. But what we've seen a lot of recently, IMO, has been from people who start in with loaded-question posts wanting information that supports their point of view. They don't provide enough information for other posters to actually shed some light on the subject. They want a yes-or-no answer on some question of "national BSA policy" that doesn't really exist. Or they're so hopelessly confused about Scouting's structure, positions, program, etc., that we have no idea what they're really asking. So in the absence of other information, in order to help them, all we really can do is assume certain things not in evidence. They're not really being trolls or provocateurs - unless they're posting in Issues & Politics. (This message has been edited by shortridge)

What I am really after is general documentation that shows how a CO "owns" the equipment/money of a BSA Unit. I know that Is there a site within scouting.org that has all this information. This may be the closest you'll get: >> "The chartered organization owns the unit, and all funds used by the unit remain the responsibility of the chartered organization as long as the charter issued by the BSA remains in place." and >> "In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization or the council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America." http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Unit_Fiscal_Policies_052009.pdf(This message has been edited by shortridge)

The GSUSA and BSA organizational structures are in no ways comparable. I'd doubt you can even easily compare their retention rates. Whereas BSA has boys at age 10 move to a new organization with new leaders, new awards, new advancement process, new outdoor opportunities, new adult training and an entirely new structure, GSUSA uses the same basic system all the way through. It may be somewhat disorganized and give BSA Scouters used to the CO model heartburn, but it's pretty seamless from the girls' perspective. If GSUSA were to use the BSA model, girls would move from being "Girl Scouts" to "Preteen Scouts," with a complete change of emphasis and organization. In some places, they'd have the opportunity to move up to an optional "Young Woman Scout" program.

I call a pox on the uniform inspection sheet. Some people just aren't hat people and shouldn't be required to wear anything. I rarely wore headgear as a Scout, with the exception of the red berets my first troop wore, because we looked darn sharp, son! Now that was stylin'. My second troop wore the standard baseball hats, and they looked goofy on me - sat too high on my head. I kept leaving mine behind. When camping, I'll wear a knit cap in the winter and at bedtime on cold fall nights, but that's about it.

Still dragging, and poorly organized, as the other thread points out. It's also interesting to note that I can publicly claim to be a member of the 1910 Society - supposedly for those who make gifts of $25,000 or more to a local council endowment - by just paying 149.99 for a lapel pin with embedded sapphire. Pins with other precious stones, however, are restricted items. I guess sapphires just don't carry a big lapel pin cachet.

Wow, this discussion has wandered far afield. Getting back to the OP's question, here are some salient points. CalicoPenn hit it right on the nose. Actually reading the source material renders this whole issue moot. The OP is wrong. >> daveinWA quotes the BSH as requiring that an Eagle candidate be active in the Troop. He probably is working from the 11th Edition, which says: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least six months as a Life Scout. >> The 12th Edition requirements, which are now in effect, state: Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout. >> Thus, if a Scout is registered in both a troop and a crew, he can earn Eagle in either. It's the Scout's choice, not the unit's or the COs. >> As others have said, the troop is separate from the crew. A troop manual does not govern membership in the crew. Additionally, a Venturing Crew is NOT designed to provide high adventure opportunities to older Boy Scouts and keep them active in an associated troop. Venturing is an entirely separate program. daveinWA's CO and unit committees should take a very hard look at what they want to do, and start a Venture Patrol. Chalk up another fundamental misunderstanding of Venturing vs. Venture Patrols from people who haven't bothered to read the book. And why can't National change the blasted names and save us the headaches?

Station some Cubs near the door as greeters, telling people there are some cool displays by Den 8 about fire safety on the back table, and have the Cubmaster mention them during opening & closings. It doesn't need to be a regular thing, but den leaders should be encouraged to space out their program planning so that each den can have its own work highlighted and not lumped together with four other dens at the same meeting. If it's a presentation, the Cubmaster can work it into the regular meeting program. I remember giving a report for the Citizen activity badge as a Webelos at a pack meeting with the other members of my den.

5scoutmom, The camp where I worked had a rule of only one-piece swimsuits, which applied to staff, leaders and parents. (We had both Boy Scout and Cub Scout sessions, so there were plenty of parents along during the latter part of the summer.) Never had any problems.

Which is why, if your unit has individual Scout accounts, the CO should endorse and approve that practice, including such thorny issues as what happens when a Cub moves up to Boy Scouts. Does the money go with him, or does it stay with the pack? Your CO should be giving guidance and be on board with your unit's practices.

Calico reminds me that there is a difference between check-in/check-out inspections and daily campsite inspections. The commissioner's staff at my camp checks each tent twice a week, on Sunday after arrival and before departure on Sunday, walking around with the SPL and noting any problems with the tents or gear - small holes in the canvas, worn bungee cords, flap ties missing, etc. That way the troop can get replacement equipment before the Scouts bunk down that evening, and so it isn't charged unfairly for damage caused by the previous troop to use those tents or gear.

Sounds like minor silliness.

If the goal is consistent program delivery, the only way to guarantee that is to go to an all-professional program team. As long as BSA is a volunteer-run, CO-controlled organization, we can have the highest standards in the world but delivery will still be spotty. Summer camp is no different. Hiring a motley crew of teenagers, college students, teachers, retirees and laid-off workers, with low wages and high turnover, means you never quite know what to expect.

No, I worked at Henson Scout Reservation in Sharptown, Md., in Del-Mar-Va Council. Best summers of my life.

This topic is near and dear to my heart ... I did campsite inspections for three years as a staffer at my local summer camp. There was an end-of-week "Clean Campsite" award which all the troops vied for. I'd never heard of a camp that doesn't have its staff do inspections, honestly. Some troops thought I was a hard-butt, sure. But the criteria didn't include anything truly demanding. We checked for litter; made sure the latrine was clean, swept and stocked with TP; trash cans were emptied and lids on; checked that the campfire circle was clean and tidy, and fire buckets were full; flags were up, weather permitting; tent flaps were rolled properly (i.e., rolled in, not out, and tails tucked up), weather permitting; all tents were rolled uniformly (i.e., all sides up or all sides down, all flaps up or just front flaps up); no damp bathing suits or wet towels hanging on the outriggers (contributes to wood rot); and that a duty roster, schedule, menu, inspection sheet, announcements, etc., were posted on the campsite bulletin board. Inside the tents, I just glanced to make sure gear was stowed neatly, clothes weren't strewn everywhere, bedding was getting a good airing, etc. A bit of lived-in messiness was OK if there were Scouts hanging out at the campsite working on stuff. All told, it was nothing more than a parent would do to make sure a house was clean and their kid's room was livable. I'd recommend doing inspections at random times during the day - keep 'em on their toes. If you just do them in the morning, they'll know they can be messy in the afternoon. You can make it a patrol competition, too, which gives bragging rights. Some troops really got into it. I'd know I was doing my job right when Scouts would come back from program sessions while I was walking through, see me heading away, and immediately rush to the bulletin board to check their scores - then unleash a heap of loud peer pressure on the one guy whose bunk was complete chaos and took their score from 100 to a 97.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

A pack flag is $48. Will the savings from the time and materials your wife will put into it really be that much?

Sorry in advance for the length. FYC programs began in the early 1990s because new Scouts were arriving at camp with a few months of Boy Scouting under their belts, but without a firm grounding in basic camping skills. They would be signing up for the standard merit badge program, trying to earn Pioneering and Camping without knowing how to tie knots or pack a backpack, or signing up for Environmental Science without the faintest idea of how to identify common plants - and then getting disappointed and disheartened. So camps began offering FYC programs to support the troop program and get these new Scouts to finish out the year. If Webelos cross over at the B&G in February, then they have three separate opportunities (once a month, March, April, May) to go camping before heading off to summer camp in June. Three weekends, regular patrol meetings and regular troop meetings should be more than enough to get the new boys up to speed on the basics. Yet in many, many instances, I found troops that apparently had no outdoor program in the spring. As an FYC program instructor, I encountered countless brand-new Scouts without the faintest idea of how to tie simple knots, do rudimentary first aid, fold a flag, build a campfire or pick proper clothes for camping. (They'd arrive at camp with seven pairs of jeans and a brand-new set of boots that hadn't been broken in.) They were good at reciting the Scout Oath and Law - I guess they got plenty of practice standing in formation in church basements during breaks from playing "Steal the Bacon" - but not much else. Now, 20 years later, have these FYC programs evolved into the opposite of what they were intended to do - replacing the troop's program, instead of supporting it? Perhaps. FYC programs now allow Scoutmasters to be lazy and encourage ASMs to do all the work for the new Scouts on their first couple of campouts, because "they're going to learn all that stuff at summer camp anyway."

Those "send-an-adult-along" requests are for two reasons. 1. Altruism. By sending along new ASMs, often former Webelos DLs, they can get hands-on training in Scouting camping methods they might not otherwise receive until months down the road when they get to an IOLS session. 2. Pragmatism. A FYC program staff of three or four people cannot effectively run a session with 50-60 brand-new Scouts. They need extra bodies, if only for crowd control.

Absolutely. I enjoy going into Eastern Mountain Sports and Gander Mountain and REI and checking out the reviews in Backpacker magazine, but rarely find myself buying that stuff. I've heard Backpacker's approach referred to as "gear p*rn." The gear industry business model is to make you want to upgrade to the latest / newest / lightest / higher-tech thing du jour, whether you need it or not. Especially with food, there's no need to do the fancy freeze-dried stuff. Your local grocery store can provide everything you need. My pack is an oversized daypack. My tent is either a tarp or a one-person bivy-style tent that I got for a huge discount at a surplus store. My cook kit is a plastic tupperware-type bowl and throwaway plastic spoon, if I even need it (I try to go no-cook when possible). My sleeping kit (for spring, summer and early fall) is a heavy-duty emergency blanket and a sheet, if needed. My footwear is a pair of running shoes. It's all a couple hundred bucks cheaper and much lighter than the "bargain" recommendations in Backpacker.

Calico, My camp lists its own age requirements in the leaders' guide - requirements the camp has imposed for reasons that include physical readiness, maturity and keeping classes small (i.e., because of a limited amount of equipment or space). The age requirements are noted in the schedule with blue and purple type that stands out on the page, so no one can miss it. There are restrictions on 13 out of 46 badges. The BSA Lifeguard requirements aren't listed in the Handbook. But they are listed in the Requirements book, AFAIK - and they're online. There's no excuse for the adult leaders or the Scouts to be unaware of them. Nor, I should note, is there any excuse for an ineligible Scout to make it through three days of the class before the instructor finds out.

First, BSA calls it a "first-time camper program" - NOT a T-2-1 program. The focus should be in getting newbies exposed to camp and basic outdoor skills, NOT shoving them through the rank advancement process in a week. The only thing a FYC program should be doing is teaching through adventuring. If your camp has a first-year camper program that has its staffers sign off on requirements - or if it explicitly calls it a T-2-1 program - RUN, do not walk, away quickly. Here's what's supposed to happen with a by-the-book FYC program, according to the BSA's "Boy Scout Resident Camp: First-Time Camper Program." Observe that it's a two-way street. A troop should never be suprised by what's being offered. >> "The key to the program's success is communication with Scoutmasters before troops arrive at camp." >> "Throughout the week, the Scoutmaster should be encouraged to have a conference with each Scout and the staff on how the program is going." >> "Could we really be proud of a program that teaches 30 requirements, but rushes through them and bores the Scouts? Of course not. ... Take the emphasis off getting the requirement initials in the handbook for the next rank and focus on why the skills are important to being a confident and capable camper." ==== To those of you with complaints, I'm curious: Did you check up on your Scouts' progress during the week, and did you see any red flags? What did the program director or camp director say when you approached him or her with your concerns about the quality of the program?

I'd vote for the Rowe-Gates ticket in a heartbeat! I got the same reply as TAHAWK. I don't think I mentioned the docent's comments, either.