shortridge

I hear that BSA is publishing a new series of "guy-lit" novels - "The Brotherhood of the Venturing Pants."

>> No Scout worth their salt is going to listen to this one, but: Get enough sleep. Don't stay up until 2 a.m. every night, or you'll be too drowsy to focus by the time Friday rolls around. >> Pack your swimsuit and towel in a daypack or close to the top of your backpack, so you can get it out quickly for swim checks on Sunday. >> Parents: Write to your sons once during the week. It's cool to get mail at camp.

It doesn't incorporate water guns, and the goal wasn't to get soaked, but it involves water and is tons of fun nonetheless ... As a Cub, my den played a wide game called "Refuel the Spaceship." It was a night game, played in the large yard (about two or three acres) of a den member's home in the country - very few lights, very dark and spooky. The den was split into two teams. Each team had a crashed "spaceship" - a medium-sized bucket - that needed to be "refueled" from a fuel depot (a large barrel filled with water) located at the other side of the yard. Each Cub was given a small cup with which to carry the fuel from the depot to the spaceship; the first team to refuel their spaceship won. But out on the surface of the planet, an alien lurked ... the den leader, dressed in black, to scare the bloody bejeezus out of everyone and make them spill their fuel when they shrieked in terror. It was incredible fun! (And if you want to use portable water propulsion devices, they could simply replace the cups as the method of transport.)

If Cub Scouts and Tenderfeet can face the right direction and salute with the proper hand, I'm happy! But I think older Scouts should all have the basic poise and experience necessary to walk in a straight line, stand at attention, hook the flag to the halyard, raise it quickly and lower it slowly, salute at the right times and fold the flag. And stand up straight. I don't think that's "drill," just basic respect. (If my 13-year-old self could read this now, he'd be thinking: " 'Stand up straight'? Geeeeeez, what an old fogie!")(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Which pioneering projects have proven to be your patrols' and troops' favorites? Are there some special or really "neato!" designs that you've seen other units put up that have just knocked your socks off? Or are there some old standbys that your Scouts have added a cool twist to?

Can anyone point to any documentation that says marching and drill are banned, restricted or even frowned upon? In fact, the BSA specifically recognizes drill teams in the Insigina Guide: Boy Scouts or Venturers who are members of bands, drill teams, or drum and bugle corps affiliated with a unit or a local council must wear the official uniform for their registration status. The wearing of special helmets, scarves, gloves, unofficial leggings, and the carrying of ceremonial guns or swords by members of such organizations using the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America is in violation of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. So drill and marching can take place, but the teams aren't to get all gussied up and wear guns and swords and stuff. Seems simple enough. During my years on camp staff, we prided ourselves on having a sharp-looking flag ceremony. Staffers got into (friendly) arguments about who was serving on the color guard that night because of the honor of it. We practiced marching, turning, folding, saluting, etc. It wasn't perfect, but we tried to make them memorable for the Scouts. In fact, the most embarassing flag ceremony I've ever seen was the one done by a team of U.S. Air Force personnel at the annual council jamboree one year (held at a USAF base). They strolled out of formation, slouched while standing at the flagpole, had no idea how to connect the flag to the halyard and did not salute while the flag was being run up. Our summer camp ceremonies were world-class in comparison.

Just like there are no BSA policies or procedures determining how the camp staff must set up the baked potato bar in the dining hall, there are no BSA policies or procedures governing something such as this. It's far too much of an outlier type of incident for a nationwide organization to have specific rules. If I were a unit Scouter and the camp staff wanted to ask questions of some of my boys, I'd insist on being present - not necessarily as an advocate, but as an observer. I would want to talk with the camp director in advance to find out the scope and scale of the questions, and the nature of any evidence. And if anything "hinky" was going on, such as random, unsubstantiated accusations or intimidation of a youth by an adult, I'd be calling a halt to the questions, walking into the camp office and dialing up the Scout Executive. In cases of campsite vandalism I've dealt with on camp staff, we treated the entire unit responsible for the damage unless it was clearly the actions of one individual. We let the unit leadership sort it out. And in almost every instance, the leaders were incredibly apologetic and wanted to set things right. In cases of camp-wide vandalism, the entire camp was held responsible for the actions of the individual until the offenders came forward. As an example, when someone threw a (sealed) plastic bag of feces into the swimming pool, the pool was immediately shut down for several days. There's a lot of peer pressure at work there to get the offenders to step forward.

Richard - You referred to a question sent to and a reply sent by your office. What did the reply say? Did it merely point people to the aforementioned vaguely written G2SS section? Really, that's all we want to know. A straight answer would be nice.

Beavah, If National's top health and safety professional can't comment in his official capacity, then he shouldn't be poking his head into health & safety threads, tossing a comment out, and running away, eh? That's neither constructive nor helpful. My council's SE is also a registered Scouter, a volunteer, with his son's troop. You can bet that when he attends summer camp, he can't just put on his volunteer's hat and not be the SE for a week. He can try, but it's simply not possible. Ditto Richard. If he wants to participate and make hit-and-run, sarcastic comments about discussions here, he can't simply say "Oh, I'm just another Scouter, I'm not talking for National." As Col. Sherman T. Potter would say, bullhockey. Richard *could* have come on here anonymously and posted comments to try to help reduce some of the misinformation out there. No one would have known the difference. *He chose* to post under his own name, include his full name in at least one post - I wouldn't have known who he was if it wasn't for that - and mention "someone [sending] us the question." He thus created an identity here linked to his professional identity. He can't walk that back now. IMHO, you either stand behind what you say 100 percent of the time, or you don't speak up at all.

Interesting. I was always told by the folks doing the swim tests that I should be working to float more of my body on the surface. I passed the tests, but was left with the impression that floating one's entire body on the surface was the "proper" way to go about it.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Just because the camp standard says they can be used to transport anybody doesn't mean they should. I have known some camps where the program areas, dining hall and staff living quarters are so far apart that by the time a staffer walks back from the rifle range for lunch (for example), he has about 15 minutes to eat before he has to turn around and walk back again. So I could see the wisdom of having some sort of speedier motorized transport available for select staffers - but not everyone. Besides, last I checked, bicycles still worked just fine as a means of getting from Point A to Point B in an expeditious manner.

The overall rule that should apply is national camp standard M-52. The relevant portion: All motor vehicles, including all-terrain vehicles (ATVs), utility terrain vehicles (UTVs), recreational off-highway ehicles (ROHVs), golf carts, and farm equipment, used by the camp are kept in safe mechanical order and operated in a safe and legal manner. ... Golf carts may be used to transport disabled or other individuals only while they are seated on seats that are standard equipment of the vehicle. The maximum speed is 10 mph. Safety belts should be worn if the vehicle comes from the manufacturer equipped with them. What you describe would astonish me, too, and I would be complaining up and down to the Scoutmaster, the PD and the CD. That seems incredibly unsafe, not to mention utterly unecessary. My camp now uses "gators" - small utility vehicles - to transport water coolers and supplies to program areas and campsites. When I worked on staff, we had to haul the equipment out in handcarts. There's no real improvement in efficiency. Staff members still have to walk out to the program areas, so whether they're pulling a handcart or having their coolers delivered makes no difference. I have heard of some commissioners at other camps who deliver coffee every morning to campsites in golf carts. I don't understand this practice. Are Scouters too incompetent to make their own coffee these days?

A "look into their character"? Really? For a Cub Scout award that is earned for doing a bunch of fun stuff? The ceremony sounds a little bit over the top, personally. I've never even seen that amount of deadly seriousness done for the AOL. No wonder the Cubs crack up. It sounds very out of line with everything they've been doing for the week. On a general note, ceremonies seem to bring out the absolute worst in people in Scouting. I have experienced too many cereemonies and read far too many scripts that are overwrought, overwritten, preachy and pompous. We don't need a blessed ceremony with deep symbolism and a holier-than-thou message for every little teensy award, folks!

I was just reflecting on this today at the swimming pool helping my daughter try to float. I'm like Scoutfish. I've never been able to "properly" float. I always end up with my legs in a vertical position, my arms out at the sides and my head and shoulders out of the water, tilted back. I never sank, passed all the swimmer's tests, earned Lifesaving MB - but neither could my whole body ever float on or near the surface.

Richard - As I understand it, you are the chief health and safety professional for the BSA. According to your LinkedIn page, you are "the subject matter expert for safety issues, hazard identification, analysis, resolution and monitoring for the organization." You provide "content and editorial leadership for Scouting Safely website and online health and safety social networks / communities" as well as "safety and health interpretations for standards, rules and policies and procedures." We are volunteers in your organization. All we're doing is asking for some of that interpretation of the editorial content that you are responsible for. I appreciate your willingness to come into this area and engage. But the query was whether water guns fall into the banned category in the G2SS. We've clearly already read the G2SS, and found it lacking. Simply pointing people back to that source does not answer the question. What's wrong with a yes or no answer?

virtualjim: Boy, you folks are just determined as heck to be proven wrong about this, aren't you? Sorry if it seems like I'm going out of my way to bash heads, but you guys and gals are just incredibly insistent on showcasing your willful ignorance of the meaning of the MOU. It has got to stop. The BSA'S MOU with AHG is the exact same - with a few minor changes and tweaks - as the MOUs with every other of the organizations already listed in this thread. It's not "more than ... some window dressing on a press release" - it IS the window dressing. (An aside: Punch the following search string into Google: "site:www.scouting.org memorandum of mutual support." You'll be surprised by how many others come up.) For illustrative purposes, let's compare, side-by-side, the key elements of two of these MOUs. The first is the one with AHG. The second group's identity I'll disclose at the end. AHG: Whereas, American Heritage Girls, Inc. and the Boy Scouts of America desire to establish and maintain a collaborative relationship on behalf of youth, young adults and families, we now enter into this agreement for the purpose of confirming a framework of cooperative relationship under which the American Heritage Girls, Inc. and the Boy Scouts of America will assist one another in areas of mutual objectives. Other Org: Whereas the [REDACTED] and the Boy Scouts of America have maintained a valauble and productive relationship on behalf of boys, young adults, and their families. We now enter into this agreement for the purpose of confirming a framework for a cooperative relationship under which the [REDACTED] and the Boy Scouts of America will assist one another in areas of mutual objectives. ============ AHG: Whereas the Boy Scouts of America is desirious of lending its aid and support to the citizenship, character developmenta nd personal fitness of boys and young men and women through community based organizations. Other Org: Whereas The Boy Scouts of America is desirious of lending its aid and support to the citizenship training, character development, and personal fitness of boys and young men and women through community-based organizations. ============ AHG: Resolved, that the American Heritage Girls, Inc. and the Boy Scouts of America will work with each other within the rules and regulations of the American Heritage Girls, Inc. and the Boy Scouts of America to establish and nurture a positive beneficial relationship as well as to cooperate in establishing American Heritage Girl units and Boy Scout Venturing units as an expression of the organizational values of the organizations. Other Org: Resolved, the [REDACTED] and the Boy Scouts of America will work cooperatively with each other, within the policies and regulations of each organization, to establish and nurture Scout units as an expression of the outreach ministry of the [REDACTED] so that boys, young adults, and adults may grow in character, citizenship responsibility, and with the personal fitness necessary to achieve their greatest potential. ============ Now for the Big Reveal. The name of the redacted organization, which, as we have seen, has an MOU almost identical to that of AHG? The Islamic Society of North America. Yep, you read that correctly. In the eyes of the BSA, American Heritage Girls and the Islamic Society of North America are essentially the same. What's that, you say? The AHG leadership told all its members how special and groundbreaking this MOU was? Yeah, sorry. You got snookered. It is nothing more than feel-good public relations boilerplate. So please - stop trying to insist that you are special.

From a meta point of view: If one views Scouting (as I do) as an outdoor-based organization that broadens boys' horizons through adventure, swimming is a critical skill. How can a boy go on a canoe trek, sailing expedition or motorboating trip with the rest of his buddies, seeing things he's never seen before and experiencing things he will never experience again, without knowing how to swim? If one views Scouting (as others do) as an organization focused on character-building and other stuffy, boring things, learning to swim is still a critical skill. As you say, your Scout doesn't have some sort of physical block to swimming. He's just scared. Overcoming that fear will build character (ta-dum!). Letting that fear win will be the start of making him think he can just skate by and dodge tough decisions and situations the rest of his life. And you can't get to Eagle without having been Second Class.

A "partnership" suggests sharing and working on areas of mutual interest, and at the moment, very few of those areas exist. AHG brings absolutely nothing to the table. The one constant message from AHG leaders and supporters here - in this thread and others - has been not "How can we help each other?" but "How can you help us?" If a CO wants to sponsor both a BSA troop and an AHG troop, more power to it. If the CO wants to lobby the BSA council to allow its AHG leaders to take training, it has that right. I just don't think it'll realistically get anywhere. And why should it? BSA training is for BSA leaders. AHG has its own training - it's just not very effective yet, apparently. That's not BSA's fault, nor its responsibility. Despite what some AHGers may think, the two groups are not allies in the fight to spread and strengthen Christianity. Make no mistake about it - religion is the core mission of AHG, not Scouting. Baden-Powell would roll over in his grave if he heard the exclusionary rhetoric coming out of AHG headquarters. To be sure, Scouting in its early years thrived because of the support of groups like the Boys Brigade and the YMCA. But Scouting, as those organizations recognized, was an entirely different, brand-new movement. It grew organically beyond anything the YMCA could have imagined, quickly outpacing its early supporters. What AHG has done is try to become a Scouting organization by piggybacking on the predominant conservative religious and political sentiment within the BSA. Instead of forging its own program, it has blatantly copied the Scout Oath and Law, and ripped off both the BSA and GSUSA uniforms. It has not had much success growing organically, instead choosing to leech on to the much larger BSA. At best, I see AHG as destined to be a national umbrella organization of Christian church youth groups and conservative homeschooling organizations.

I'm not sure if Richard is trying to defend the policy or not.

Richard, If you have the definitive answer, as you seem to suggest, why don't *you* just post it?

kcshrader - Just a suggestion: You could also have simply walked up to one of the other leaders or organizers and asked your questions about how the flag ceremony worked. Even if you had a "partner" relationship with a BSA troop, there would be no guarantee that troop would even have been participating at this event. If that's all you can come up with, it kind of sounds like you're aiming for a solution in search of a problem, to be honest. FYI, BSA's YP rules require two-deep leadership, or two leaders per troop. There's no 5:1 or 10:1 Scout-adult ratio or anything. And patrols can do service projects on their own, with no adults present, with the approval of their Scoutmaster. So your parents wouldn't actually have added anything to the BSA troop. WoundedFox - You said: "Is anyone aware of any national direction that I can bring to the attention of my local council to help them decide that they are allowed (or encouraged, or even required) to allow AHG leaders to register for various courses..." To "help them decide" that they are "required"?? Sounds like coercion to me. If AHG's processes and systems are cumbersome and bureaucracy-heavy, then taking BSA training courses or partnering with a BSA troop is not going to solve your problem. You need to look inside at AHG and lobby for changes there.

If I were the Perfect SM in that situation, Callooh Callay, my response to that utterly unhinged parental rant would be one of two things: 1. If the parent was just making that point for the sake of argument: "Here's an adult volunteer application. Since you feel so strongly about this, we'd love to have you learn more about what Scouting is all about and become part of our team." 2. If the parent truly believed all that: "Here's the name and number of the District Executive. He or she can help you starting your own troop, since you feel so strongly that our troop's approach is trying to harm your family structure. Our troop is not your troop. Your son is a good kid, but I'm not going to expend the mental and emotional energy needed to deal with someone like you." CC, if your understanding of the Patrol Method is that it's trying to isolate Scouts from their parents, wean boys away from their families or impose the Scoutmaster's judgment as superior to that of any family, then you either need to file a complaint with the Scout Executive over this alleged brainwashing or quit Scouting altogether. Good grief.

Acco - My guesses as to what the parent's response was, and some suggested replies: >> "What's a Patrol Leader? Who is that?" (The Perfect SM's reply: "He's the youth leader of your son's patrol, the Rattlesnakes. The patrol is the building block of the troop, the core group that your son is a part of. Here's his name and number. Have your son call him.") >> "He did talk to him, but he forgot what he was told." (The Perfect SM's reply: "Here's his name and number. Have your son call him and take notes this time.") >> "Why does that matter? I'm the one who's sewing on all these patches. Just tell me so I can get it done." (The Perfect SM's reply: "In Boy Scouting, we try not to do anything for the boys that they can do themselves. I understand if your son doesn't know how to sew and has asked you to sew on the patches this time, but he needs to find out for himself where they go. It may seem insignificant, but it's part of the boy-led learning process that we use.") Every conversation, handled properly, can be an educational experience.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Chip, meet shoulder ...

I just Googled. http://www.ncsbsa.org/resources/standards/2011%20National%20Standards%20Resident.pdf If you search "bsa national camp standards 2011" or some variation thereof, you can use the Google QuickView version, which is MUCH more friendly than trying to load up the gigantic PDF at the above link, at least on my connection.