shortridge

CopperCarla wrote: "Aren't we, as parents, supposed to guide our children in accords with our own moral values? As a parent, I felt that joining BSA was appropriate for my son. ... AHG was started by and is run by parents. BSA is run by parents. Does that make BSA all about the parents?" Twocubdad wrote: "The BSA program is an adult program run by adults to develop the moral character of their youth." The issue is not about who runs the program, but who the program is for. AHG's pitch is not about Scouting, adventure, exploration, learning. The language it uses is all about wholesome Christian values, character-building, etc. It's very clear that the chief goal is not meeting the desire of children for Scouting adventures and teaching character through a Scouting program, but meeting the desire of parents to have their kids not associate with gays and non-Christians. "American Heritage Girls was founded in 1995 in West Chester, Ohio by a group of parents wanting a wholesome program for their daughters. These parents were disillusioned with the increasing secular focus of existing organizations for girls. They wanted a Judeo-Christian focused organization for their daughters and believed that other parents were looking for the same for their daughters. ... Today Christian parents are concerned about the changing tides in our society. Moms and dads are continuously looking for wholesome, morally sound opportunities for their precious children." Further: The description of how the troops run focus barely a whit on youth leadership roles. The outdoor program information in the girls' section of the site is cribbed from other publications. They can't even write their own program material, but can expound for hours about values and Jesus. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I'm just saying that AHG is clearly a church youth group gone national with delusions of grandeur. Nothing more. It's not Scouting. Should BSA have a connection with AHG? Sure, why not. But its supporters shouldn't delude themselves, and its leaders shouldn't mislead their members into thinking, that it's something special. BSA also has connections with religious groups who would not be allowed to join AHG.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

While there are "Arrow of Light Den Meeting Plans," that does not mean that there is such a thing as an "Arrow of Light Den." That's a misread of the title. Source: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/ArrowofLight/ArrowofLightMeetingPlans.pdf

I believe officially it is Webelos Den for boys working on their Webelos badge, and Arrow of Light Den for boys working on AOL. No, they're not. Those may be the terms your pack uses, but there's no basis in anything for them. And they ignore the fact that a Webelos Scout can earn the Webelos badge at any time, not just in the first year of the program. All this graduation stuff is good pomp & circumstance, but it's really meaningless. Not having the boys "graduate" from one year to the next is also preparation or Boy Scouting, where it's all self-directed.

If values is the sole pitch, as with AHG, no ordinary kid is going to be interested. But it looks like that's OK with AHG; its site makes it fairly clear that it was started for parents. As far as I'm concerned, that's not Scouting.

"Well, your opinion obviously will affect nothing at all. The short answer appears to be that AHG and Cub Scouts both offer programs promoting traditional values. ... I could easily see the AHG as having a good prospect for growth based on superior organizational patterns and values." And we've all seen how "traditional values" is a great rallying cry to attract young people. That "words to live by" marketing campaign really improved BSA's numbers, didn't it? Good Scouting - true Scouting - spreads among the youth, through positive, fun, exciting programs. How many young kids do you know who say, sincerely, "I want to participate in a Christ-centered character-building program because I don't like the increasing secularism in our culture?" [ crickets ] As for the claims of its super-fast growth: AHG boasts of 18,000 members after 16 years (though it's not clear if those are all youth or include adults). But wait - let's contrast a bit here. At its 17-year mark (closest I could find), GSUSA reportedly had 200,000 members - in an age before email or social media made it easier to connect with like-minded people. So which grew faster?

Nike - the problem with that idea is that many evangelicals don't view members of the LDS Church as true Christians. They *might* be welcomed, but then preached at the whole time. AHG is a religious organization that uses Scouting-like programs. It may make inroads in certain areas, but it's not going to get very far nationally. It has a very narrow focus that will appeal to a small sector of the population - conservative Christian parents with daughters dissatisfied with their current church youth programs. A recipe for success? There's also no infrastructure to support the program locally, so - like GSUSA - a unit's success depends on the longevity of individual leaders. It will fizzle within a decade. America is becoming tolerant and inclusive, not exclusionary.

BDPT, were you there, too? Or are you talking about something else?

The perfect Outings Chair is a thick log next to a campfire. Oh, wait. Sorry, should have read the thread first.

Has anyone tried this? I was always good on the balance beam in gymnastics, but walking on a wire in the COPE program - even just a foot off the ground - gave me the jeebies. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/03/13/walk-the-line-after-review-the-bsa-gives-slacklining-a-qualified-ok/ Will you bring this to your PLCs or Venturing leaders?

"I do think pre-camp shakedowns are a lazy and impatient style of guiding scouts to change behavior." If they're used as a punitive technique, sure. But not if they're used as they should be - educational experiences led by the PL - NOT Scouters - that includes a review of the trip conditions, activities, patrol gear and individual gear. Or do you consider Tenderfoot requirement No. 1 a lazy and impatient requirement?

"Now helicopter scouters want to micro-manage the boys' camping experience right down to their diet?" CC - I can only assume that you've never actually read any of the program materials that we use in Scouting. I just read the sections on cooking, food and health in the BSH (11th ed., only copy I had at hand), and nowhere does it encourage Scouts to eat unhealthily in order to learn valuable lessons. What it does tell Scouts is to "Eat a balanced diet that includes foods from the food pyramid" and "Try to limit the amount of sugary foods and beverages you eat and drink." I know you're obsessed with your rants against "helicopter Scouters," but you might try actually studying the Scouting program first.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Touche on the fried Snickers.

Some of them give me blank stares when I hand them their voter registration and say "Happy birthday, run my country well!" That's a great idea - not just the statement, but giving newly-minted 18-year-olds voter registration forms. I'm going to file that one away.

boomer and basement - My issue with the junk food isn't extra calories, food cost or food waste. It's the example that Scouting ought to be setting of good and healthy food. Sure, if you're a triathlete, you can eat three greasy cheeseburgers a day and suffer very few ill effects. But the vast majority of Scouts and Scouters aren't in that fitness category. There are far better, healthier options out there. Don't get me wrong - I like me some junk food from time to time, could stand to lose a few pounds and am certainly no health nut. But we in Scouting should be snacking on pretzels and drinking water vs. Doritos and Mountain Dew. And since cooking is a central part of the Scouting program (or should be) - well, how do you cook a Dorito or a Snickers bar? Our Scouts and Venturers ought to know how to cook stuff from scratch. And they'll soon realize that it really does bring down your costs, too, to cook rather than buying processed, pre-packaged foods.

No, copyright doesn't come into play here. If you sell a copyrighted item - a book or photograph or design or patch - you no longer have control over that item. What you control, as the copyright-holder, is the ability to produce more of those items. BSA can put whatever puffed-up language it wants in its bylaws, but none of it has any bearing on what we do with an item once we purchase it. That's our business. It might be different if the BSA was loaning out its badges under an agreement that they would be returned once people left the membership rolls, but that's clearly not the system in place here. As for the point of the OP, I think the practice is sleazy, but not worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. There are a whole lot of patch collectors who own items they never earned out there. Heck, we even have a forum here for them. I just don't see it as a big deal. P.S. "Lighten up, Francis" is a quote from Sgt. Hulka from the classic film "Stripes," a moving, powerful documentary about the modern military.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Soda, chips and candy bars on a campout? No way. This is why it's a good idea to build shakedown time into the pre-trip process. Basement, your idea to send the food home with parents is spot on. If you need to leave on a Friday at 5 p.m., have everyone at the church or lodge or SM's house at 4 p.m. to unload their packs and have their gear inspected by the PL. Use it as educational, not punitive, but make it clear that this crap is not allowed. Problem solved! If you're doing plop camping, adopt a no-food-in-tents rule for the reason Eagledad outlined. That puts the onus on the boys to ask for space in the coolers or chuck boxes, which the PL will have to politely decline because it's not part of the menu. So unless they've come prepared to rig up their own bear bags, the food stays locked up in the trailer the whole weekend! Problem solved. If you want to illustrate the issue, take an old raggedy tent on the verge of being retired. Set it up in someone's relatively rural back yard. Toss in a bunch of Snickers, spill some Pepsi inside, add a couple bags of potato chips and some loaves of stale bread inside and zip it up. Make a unit visit a few days later and see what's left.

"In addition, photos of candidates with Scouts in uniform or which contain BSA marks and logos are not allowed in political campaign materials of any kind." That whole photo thing? Completely unenforceable. I know it's more of a caution to Scouters who might support a candidate and try to arrange a photo op - "Hey, guys, I need everyone out at the church on Saturday in uniform to do a favor for my friend, Mr. Ford, OK?" But it's still rather silly to frame it as a restriction on campaign materials, which BSA has zero control over.

Isn't the CD the same person who has been driving away many parents because of her PWD attitude issues? If so, then I'd say you have good reason to be concerned. But it's not your problem any more. Very few working relationships start out negative. They start positively, everything's hunky-dory, and then go down the tubes. So what the PD is saying may be entirely accurate from his POV at this moment in time. What he presumably lacks is the experience of working with this person over the long term. And he's only going to get that experience through time. That said - it's entirely natural to be reluctant to let go. It's just as natural for the PD to want to put his own stamp on things by creating new activities and program stuff. You've handed it over, given your advice and done all you can. It sounds like it's time to let the powers that be know exactly what you've done to help, what information you've passed on, etc., and then step back and be with your son. Do all that you can with his den and make sure he has a great time at day camp. And congratulations on the promotion, BTW! Tiger partner is a great role, and bound to be far more fun than PD.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Does anyone know when BSA started selling jeans? I must have missed this. Link (shortened): http://bit.ly/wAxwvq

Google and Snopes are your friend, folks. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ssn.asp

I've given to the United Way, but not as part of a campaign at work. I find those efforts to be pushy and obnoxious at best, coercive at worst. IMHO, they have no place in the workplace.

>> to be there in case of emergencies >> to support the SM >> to say, repeatedly: "Did you ask your patrol leader?" >> to get plenty of hands-on experience in making the perfect cup of coffee

Try customerservice@scoutstuff.org or 1-800-323-0732.

OGE: But are the rules the same as in BSA? I'm just thinking out loud here, and I lack the particular religious background, but I could potentially see a situation where an altar server is helping a priest with his vestments, and they're one-on-one. I know priests are far more conscious about such things than they once were, but it seems like it could easily happen. And since the crew appears to be promoting serving at Mass as a core element of its program, would not it have the responsibility to make sure BSA YP rules apply?

Hear, hear, Stosh!