SeattlePioneer

I'm happy to have some pretty spirited competition in Boy Scouts. But how might that compare to competition at the Cub Scout level? It wasn't at all clear, but that was my main area of interest. What differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scout competitions would be appropriate?

I'm guessing Kudu might like to add this to his recruiting pitch.

> So what is the proper role for competition in Scouting? Do you have good or bad examples o9f how that is used?

Hello Eagledad. In 2004 I was a volunteer with a troop I had just joined. Capmoree was the first campout I attended with the troop. During the course of the Camporee, I was approached by a mother who was camping with the troop with her children. She confided to me that her tween age daughter had had sex with an Assistant Scoutmaster at camp. I didn't take any action on that report myself. A few months later that AS had his BSA membership permanently revoked, I was told. That's not quite an example of a Scout being abused at camp, but it's pretty close.

What methods do you use to get new Tiger Cub dens started and to find and train new Tiger Cub Den Leaders?

I like to do a competition between dens in the course of pack meetings. In December dens will be making "Christmas Sleighs" from cardboard boxes that they decorate. During the pack meeting, the Scouts in each den pull one of their number around a race course as "reindeer" pulling on a rope attached to the sleigh. After each lap a new boy gets in the sleigh to be pulled around. I also do a competition setting up a tent during pack meetings before our June campout. Each den is given a self supporting tent to erect, the winner being the den who erects the tent, gets all the boys in the tent and the den cheer given the fastest. So what's candy fire? I haven't heard of that one!

The theme of my December Cub Scout Roundtable is going to be "The Secrets of Den and Pack Pizazz." The idea is going to be to find the best ways to create an exciting den and pack meeting or activity for Cub Scouts and adults. I'm soliciting district leaders to refer me to people who have den and pack pizazz so we can invite them to be presenters at the Roundtable. All you folks are invited to contribute ideas, too? What are the secrets of den and pack pizazz as you have seen or practiced them?

> That DOES sound like fun. They could be responsible for training Scouts in building fires and fire safety. Me! Me! Meeeee!

I'll have to ask the Scoutreach folks about how they handle this issue in Soccer and Scouting and other programs aimed at populations that have a high likelihood of attracting illegal aliens.

I'd consider something like: A display board with the names of various PORs listed. When someone is appointed to a position, their name and the date of their appointment is posted. The SPL and Scoutmaster negotiate specific activities the appointed Scout needs to do to fulfill advancement requirements. You might consider posting those as well. If a Scout isn't carrying out those duties, they aren't qualifying for time ingrade in that POR for advancement. Activity could be an agenda item at monthly Patrol Leader meetings.

Crossing the border illegally is only the beginning. Every day an illegal immigrant stays in the country they violate the law again. Acts of fraud to acquire false identification and lying on employment applications is routine. Then there are the newspaper headlines we can imagine--- " ICE raids Cub Scout Meeting and Arrests Cubmaster" or whatever. Personally, I solicit membership for Cub Scouts and do not inquire into their immigration status. The BSA youth application does not inquire into the immigration status of a youth. But the Adult Leader application does make such inquiries by requiring a SSN and doing a background check which would presumably reveal whether that SSN is legitimate. The background check might reveal other issues about the legal status of an illegal alien. So in my opinion Illegal Aliens are not suitable candidates for Scout Leader positions.

> I don't doubt that their are illegals who own houses. But they are in the countrty illegally and don't legally "reside" here I suggest. They are subject to arrest and deportation at any time. I'm actively interested in recruiting families to Scouting whether they are here are not. But I don't think illegals are entitled to be BSA leaders. If someone has an on topic reference to prove that wrong, I'd be glad to see it.

Having stoves on in tents or shelters is usually a safety hazark from both a fire and carbon monoxide standpoint.

> I agree, that's clear. He can't register since he doesn't "reside" in the United States. Perhaps that's unfortunate, but he can't be a registered leader.

> Scouts should be appointed to positions by the SPL, not the SM. And it's up to the SPL to decide if someone is appointed to an office and if so, which one, other than the PL that ought to be elected by the Patrol members. I was in a troop where a Life Scout was manifestly incapable of performing most Scout Skills. I figure he was an adequate Tenderfoot or perhaps Second Class Scout on a good day. Most of his requirements and Merit Badges had been approved by his father, who was CC. When the SM didn't approve his Scoutmaster Conference for Life, his father went ahead and awarded his son the Life rank anyway. The SPL appointed the Scout to organize entertainment at campfires, a task which he was interested in but did not do. His father decided to appoint him to a different position. When it came time for his Eagle Scoutmaster conference, the SM again didn't approve it, but this time made it stick. The family left the Troop, shopping for another troop for the boy to get his Eagle. No loss there. Parents---- they create far more trouble than youths.

I'll give him an "A" for originality.

Ideally Scout skills are largely learned in the course of the Scouting program, and on camping trips in particular. What is your outdoor program like? As a Patrol Leader, he needs to be able to use and teach Scout skills. If he doesn't know them now (not especially unusual) he should be learning, practicing and teaching those skills on every outing until he has mastered them himself. He may need some coaching and teaching himself. I'd see that he gets it. The purpose is not to put him in a situation so that he will fail, but to put him in a situation so he is motivated to learn.

I recently had a new family join our Tiger Cub Den. Today the boy, both his parents and two grandparents showed up for our district Cub Scout Bowling Tournament. Last Saturday the Dad attended my Tiger Cub Den Leader Training. The new Scout appeared in a full new uniform. The boys grandfather related that he had been a Cub Scout and Boy Scout in his time, and he was interested in being an adult leader in our pack program. How can you be a pessimist when you have stories like that going on? In the Cub Scouts, we Do Our Best. That's the bottom line.

I talked to the Cub Scout who was last years council sales winner and his father today. One the bright side, they upped their popcorn sales from $4400 to $10,500 or so! But they still took second place to a Scout in another district they beat out by $50 last year. That guy sold $11,000 odd dollars of popcorn this year! He's already plotting his sales strategy for next year...

> Heh, heh! Great story! I imagine my guy was handicapped by taking that week long vacation to Disneyland during the popcorn sale... Next year is coming though! He went back and hit up the people se sold pocorn to last year. I imagine he will do that again with his larger sales base next year. And he's a very charming kid. Home schooled.

> Heh, heh! Very droll, Kudu! I think IOLS is useful for it's intended purpose --- as an INTRODUCTION. In addition, it introduces even experienced outdoor people to the BSA methods of doing certain things. For example, I was introduced to the "contact" method of splitting wood with an axe at IOLS training. I'd read about it before and sneered at it as "the way lawyers chop wood." (which I thought was pretty droll). But actually, it works pretty well if you do it properly, and I think it's a good deal safer than free swinging axe swinging, especially for people new to the skill, such as boys. And it demonstrates how to use the "station" type training method to teach patrols or groups of people, which is good. People new to a skill at least get an introduction to it, which hopefully they will improve on during other outdoor adventures. So I think IOLS does very well for it's intended purpose.

Hello Beavah, Very good point. Of course, the BEST place to make that point would be at Boy Scout Camps. I assisted at a Trail to First Class program at a Scout Camp last summer. Most of the instruction was by 13-14 year old Scouts who were "Counselors in Training," and frankly most of them couldn't do the skills themselves, let alone teach them to others. I tend to regard Boy Scout Camps as the birthplace of Eagle Milling, although some like swimming are done to a commendably high standard by very capable people.

Personally I think it's GREAT if Scouting can help recognize boys for their accomplishments in school. Recognizing achievements in band as a substantial part of the Music Merit Badge would be a classic example of that, I would suppose.

Even with several thousand miles of backpacking and climbing, I've seen few of the examples of bad outdoorsmanship of the kind described in this thread along Pacific Northwest trails. The one example that really stands out in my memory was a rustic backcountry ranger cabin I ran across in the Paysayten Wilderness, east of the Pacific Crest Trail right up near the Canadian border. Every single eve on the cabin was festooned with a big plastic sack of garbage! This was an area frequented by horse packing outfits, and I imagine thats where all the trash came from. On the bright side, I came back to this spot in the middle of the winter on a nordic ski camping trip, and all the trash was gone. The cabin was pristine in the snow, and was beautiful.

Hello Jay, I used the e-mail on the conference website to register for the conference, and that request was referred to the council which apparently had to approve who went. Despite renewing my request, I was turned down by both the council VP-Membership and the council Field Director, who work together quite a bit. So I didn't go. Well, I did my best. Life has it's disappointments.