SeattlePioneer

Well, they are clearly inviting the council to pull their charter. I suppose we will read about how shocked they are when that happens. No mention of the Chartered Organization. They might choose to clean house too. Time will tell.

> True, no doubt. But those folks are already overextended. I want to expand the pool of Scouts who will help Cub Scouts, and my pack in particular. Perhaps it wont work. Shucks --- ideas are cheaper than balogney! I try lots of things that don't work. But if it does work, perhaps that can be used to create a greater sense of OA membership and service, and help my Cub Pack too. I think that's worth a try. It's kind of discouraging because the Scoutmaster was Cubmaster of the pack, and he ought to be taking more of a role to help out the struggling Cub Pack, which his troop needs BADLY to survive and thrive. Perhaps this is something the Scoutmaster and youth leaders will decide to support. It's just a little different than the fruitless begging I've tried before, which hasn't worked.

> I would bet that farmers breed for animals that maximize fecundity and weed out anything getting in the way of that fecundity. For example, I suspect that a horse breeder would take steps to prevent a stallion he wants to breed from engaging in masturbation, despite the fact that the horse might have learned how to entertain itself in that way. There are certain easily identified purposes for which genetalia are intended by nature to be used. Those are the healthy and natural uses for those bodily parts. I suspect that the farmers you refer to can figure those out for their animals even if you might be unable to do that for human beings. It's really quite simple. It's just that in recent years people have decided that their lusts should be allowed to rule their behavior. The purposes of human sexuality revolves around reproduction. Anything else is unnatural and therefore perverted and is properly discouraged by society. This is the basic tenant of the natural law argument that has ruled western civilization for the past oh, 1500 years or so, and is reflected in many other civilizations as well. It's a perfectly legitimate and reasonable point of view. In recent decades we have had a competing value system promoted by advocates of the sexual liberation movement, whose purpose is to gratify pretty much any kind of human sexual lust. Everyone gets to choose which scheme of values they wish to support.

Will incest and specifically the ability of a parent to marry their child or a brother to marry his sister be the next frontier for the sexual liberation movement, using much the same arguments as those advanced for gay marriage?

As a district membership chair, I wear the Recruiter strip proudly! I encourage youth and adults top earn the recruiter strip by recruiting new youth. Personally, I think it's NUTZ to discourage people, adultsa included, from earning and wearing this award!

What we see in the Scout described is an example of the diversity of Scouting. Scout troops and leaders have a variety of ways they interpret and present the program, and Scouts have a variety of ways they receive and understand the program. One way is for a Scout to be goal oriented and to get all his tickets punched as rapidly as possible. That's fine and legitimate as far as I'm concerned. Scouting has more than that to offer, and it may be that the Scout will move on and miss out on that. But he's entitled to take what he wants from the program. If he drops out for other challenges because he's achieved what he wishes to in Scouting, so be it.

Oh, using bolt cutters to cut steel wire to lengt5h shouldn't be a problem. Choose a suitable diameter branch and boys can use the loppers to cut it to length. Personally, I let Cub Scout use an electric drill when they are carefully supervised. If I had hand operated drills, I would use those. It's not at all uncommon for parents to try to take over such projects, but I just keep encouraging parents to let the boys do the tasks. One of my favorites is watching boys use a staple gun. Usually even Tiger Cubs are just strong enough to operate the staple gun if an adult is behind them holding things in place while the boy uses both hands and all his body weight to work the staple gun. I generally look for opportunities for boys to decorate and customize their projects, since it gives boys a chance to use their artsy/creative impulses. The end result is that both boys who like practical projects and those who like artsy projects find opportunities to do things they enjoy. You will notice this is included in the hot dog roasting stick: >

Hello Horizon, I'm not an Xpert on natural law. As I understand it, Thomas Aquinas was responsible for bringing the concept of natural law philosophy into the heart of Christian teachings and the western tradition in the late Roman Empire, where it has been ever since until the past few decades. Natural law examines human behavior with the use of reason, not faith, to identify right rules of conduct and behavior. Many different religions have arrived at similar conclusions because most religions are looking for practical ways for people to survive and thrive. Intolerant atheists like to sneer at religion and say "just which God should I worship, since every religion has different deities?" But natural law finds many common ethical behaviors between religions, contradicting this kind of snide criticism. For example, the idea of treating your neighbor as you wish to be treated has a lot of commonality between religions. Speaking sexually, natural law looks at human sexuality and human genitalia and reasons that there are quite obvious correct way to use those appendages which lead to human reproduction and human families as ways for society to survive and replicate itself. Those means are deemed to be "good" and ethical, and other methods of sexual gratification are pretty much all deemed to be bad and immoral. There were LOTS of reasons why this morality was necessary and worked. The concept of sexual liberation isn't new --- it's been tried repeatedly --- and by and large it has repeatedly failed when children weren't cared for, disease spread, women were abandoned to starve or whatever. The sexual liberation movement of the past half century or so is only practical because science and government keep propping it up. Without artificial contraception, sexual freedom would be a joke for most women, just as one example. Homosexuals of the 1980s had sexual freedom, but very soon became hagridden with AIDS, which is only kept from continued massacre of that population by the most sophisticated medical research, treatment and medication. Indeed, sexual liberation works poorly for much of the poor and working class. It really only works pretty well for the upper middle and upper classes, who don't care about the lower social classes as long as they can gratify their various lusts. In short, I think there are very good reasons to continue the morality of natural law, and to resist the morality of the sexual liberation movement. Those reasons are independent of religion, although many religions have reached similar conclusions. (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

> I don't think that follows at all. After all, if two people "love" each other, don't you want the government to permit them to marry? I do predict the rise of a new polygamy ethic, which after all has a long tradition in human societies. The politics of gay marriage and the sexual liberation movement shows how this will be revived in society. Longer term, I expect a corporate model to prevail, with people getting a share in the family they marry into. One wonders how many shares a popular movies star would be able to disitribute through plural marriage?

Hello Shortridge, My theory is that a lot of OA members never get involved in district or council OA activities, but might participate with other OA members in a Troop activity. Of course that may not work, but I figure it's better than doing nothing. I see a lot of Scouting driven by habits and traditions. If I can make service to the Cub Pack a habit and tradition of troop Scouts and Scouters, that would be a good thing.

When I was Scoutmaster (thirty years ago) I mentioned on the way to summer camp that I was planning on doing the camp mile swim, one of the activities open to both youth and adults. Five or six Scouts decided to do that as well, with all except one completing the mile swim program and getting the mile swim badge (me, too). I'm sure that until I mentioned it the idea of doing that program had scarcely crossed the mind of any of the boys.

> I dropped out of Cub Scouts circa 1957 or so after just a few weeks. While I'm sure the Den Mother was well intentioned, what I recall was a series of cutesy craft projects in which I had little interest. One of may aims in Cub Scouting has been to have more practical craft projects which introduce boys to new skills and new tools and which have a practical result at the end. Personally I think those kinds of projects are better suited to the interest boys usually have. That's my bias when in comes to craft projects. You are welcome to yours as well. In my experience, mothers tend to do female oriented things and men tend to do male oriented things. That's both understandable and natural. As it happens, all the den leaders and Cubmaster are men, while all the Committee positions (except me) are filled by women. >"Often I have a bone to pick with craft projects selected by lady leaders."> Actually, they seem pretty happy with the situation and a number are VERY happy that the den leaders are men.

THAT I'll have to see!

Most OA activities I read about here are district or council based. Few activities seem to be at the troop level. As a Cub Pack leader, the neighboring troop has been of very little help to the pack program. I'd really like to have some help with our fall recruiting night from the Scouts, so I'm planning to ask the troop to ask Troop OA members to turn out for our recruiting night to help boys and parents make stomp bottle rockets and then have the Scouts lead the rocket launch portion of the activity, which includes handing out stickers each time a boy wins one of the rocket launch heats. The Scouts would be encouraged to wear their OA sash. Does that sound like a reasonable OA activity to encourage?

Hello Basement, Wow, those are exceptional results in my experience. (That means you do a lot better than I do!) So what are your methods? As a Unit Commissioner I'm working with the Troop to aid them in a fall recruiting campaign, something they haven't done in years.

> I agree this could be a safety issue. But my experience with such things is that if you warn boy and adults about it and end the project while boys are still interested and engaged in it, you can avoid problems. I anticipate collecting the hot dog sticks as soon as they are completed and before boys are getting bored and starting to use their imaginations to create hazards! I might give each boy turning in their project a treat of some kind when they turn in their completed project. Same when it's hot dog or marshmallow roasting time. Terminate the activity while boys are still engaged with it and before they are bored and starting to create their own activity. (That's always one of the keys to good Cub Scout activities, in my opinion.)

> After being through this discussion many times, I would have thought BSA24 would at least have understood the issue. But he doesn't have a clue, or deliberately misstates it. And opposition to homosexuality comes from natural law, a branch of philosophy based upon reason, not faith. Because it is logical and reasonable, most religious faiths have reached the same conclusions as has the natural law approach. Natural law was adapted and adopted by Christianity most clearly in the writings of Thomas Aquinas, a man well acquainted with the vices of the late Roman Empire.

> I do an event like stomp bottle rockets, a simplified Raingutter Regatta, an egg packaging/egg drop or similar activity for two reasons: 1) If you offer boys the opportunity to make a launch ROCKETS! or whatever, you really have them motivated and the turnout will be a lot better. 2) I don't spend much time TALKING about Scouting being a family activity, because parents have just spent quality time with their boy making and launching rockets or whatever. They have EXPERIENCED Cub Scouts as a family activity. To enhance the experience, I have a "Rocket Pilot License" that is issued to each boy when they REGISTER for the activity, leaving us contact information for follow up. Each time a boy's rocket goes the farthest during the rocket launch, they get a sticker for their rocket pilot license. Boys love competition and they want to win something. This allows boys to win multiple times since they can launch their rockets many times. The rocket launch is the best draw for a recruiting night I have ever seen.

Hello Dean, I agree with you that time is a major issue, but it doesn't have to be a barrier if you keep in mind that Den Chiefs should be a Scout program that is fun and rewarding for the Den Chief like any other Scouting program. That means giving Den Chiefs a meaningful role in the program, teaching or leading a portion of the program each week, not being help meets for the Den Leader. Also, you don't have to tromp all over the Den Chief's time every week. Perhaps the Den Chief can attend one meeting a month, or attend particular meetings when his help will be especially valuable. I haven't attracted any Den Chiefs for my Cub Pack from a neighboring troop. But my plan is to ask the Troop leaders to have Order of the Arrow members attend our recruiting night September 12th wearing their sashes, and to help boys and parents make stomp bottle rockets and then take charge of the stomp bottle rocket launch competition while we are signing up parents. We'll see if that works. If it does, I'll look for other ways to attract at least some part time Den Chiefs. For example, the pack meets from 6:30-7:30 while the troop meets a half mile away from 7:00-8:30. I might occasionally ask Scouts to attend the first half hour of the den meetings and then take them over for the troop meeting. My theory here is that creativity and flexibility might make the Den Chief program start to work. Another neighboring troop provides Den Chiefs for all the dens in a successful pack, and has for years. I had a great Den Chief when I was a Tiger Cub Den Leader for that pack. The boys are still busy, but they choose to offer a very valuable service as a gift.

> This is the key in my opinion. I aim to find ways to engineer fun into the program for myself and for adults too. The Scout troop for which I'm Unit Commissioner used to have pizza or another treat for Patrol Leader meetings to help attract more boys to the meetings. The Troop Committee meets at the same time and they are now ordering pizza or other treats for the adults for the same reason. At a pack committee meeting Monday I had a beverage and some banana bread I baked for the adults who turned out. At my pack recruiting night September 12th boys and their parents will be making stomp bottle rockets together, which is a fine parent and son project. Personally, I don't see having adults compete with boys for things like Eagle, but it's important to have fun, adventure and excitement for adults in the program as well, in my opinion. > I've objected to this in the past as well. I think it's wrong, but only because it exaggerates too much. I've know Scout troops where the program is primarily about the adult leaders going on summer canoeing trips and finding a few boys to go along as well. That suits those adults, but it's not what the program should be either.

> I interpret this as meaning that if you are trained to a suitable level of proficiency, you will be able to make reasonable judgments. I have no issue with that. If you don't have training and experience, making judgments on the fly especially against expert advice you are aware of is unlikely to be a good idea.

Hello howarthe, Actually, all the Den Leaders, ADL and Cubmasters in my pack are men. The moms are the committee people. I started rebuilding the pack four years ago, and I suspect that my presence gave other men "permission" to be program leaders. I'd REALLY like to have more Boy Scout participation in the pack, but so far I haven't been able to stoke up interest in that.

> I certainly have no objection to being prepared to act skillfully and responsibly. I do have an objection to untrained people jumping in to hazardous situations and doing harm or becoming additional casualties themselves. Good intentions by themselves frequently aren't enough.

Hello JMHawkins, The problem is that having untrained people jump into a situation can just produce additional casualties or cause further injuries. Just following your impulses to jump into a situation can often be foolish. Here are a number of situations where jumping into an accident situation may not be the right thing to do: Rescue and Transportation If you are faced with the problem of rescuing a person threatened by fire, explosive or poisonous gases, or some other emergency, do not take action until you have had time to determine the extent of the danger and your ability to cope with it. In a large number of accidents the rescuer rushes in and becomes the second casualty. Do not take unnecessary chances! Do not attempt any rescue that needlessly endangers your own life! > http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/Standard1stAid/chapter11.html

Marx and Engels made claims that socialism was scientific, and this became an article of faith in the Soviet Union and among other Communist parties. "Scientific socialism" became part of the political dogma of Communism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_socialism The socialists of my college days often made references to scientific socialism to buttress their claims of being right.