scoutldr

Another comment on "dropping" inactive scouts from the roster. Recently, our SE ordered that any scout who was not re-registered would be called...by the DE or Commissioner staff. Many responded that "nooooo, we didn't quit...we still want to be members!" The units were then told to get their money and get them back on the roster. Gotta keep those NUMBERS up! Doesn't matter if they are "active" or not. Bottom line is, if they pay, they're in.

As I have posted before, I have first hand experience with EBOR and appeals. We had a scout once who was denied Eagle at the EBOR. He had a child out of wedlock and was living "in sin" with the girl. SM and CC knew about the situation, but scheduled the EBOR anyway. They either did not think it had anything to do with Scouts, or expected the EBOR to "do the heavy lifting". One of the troop committee members on the Board was livid, based on Scout Spirit and "morally straight". He was even more angry that the SM and CC had withheld this information, which only came to light when one of the Letters of Recommendation revealed it. The secret ballot was not unanimous. The scout appealed, a District EBOR was held and he was given the Eagle, because "he had met all the requirements". So in my experience, I no longer have much respect for the process. 99% of the Eagle candidates I see are worthy...most 110% worthy. But anyone else who asks for it will get it too...eventually. I am an Eagle, class of 1970. I feel the process has been watered down so much, for the sake of keeping the numbers up, that I feel it's been cheapened and doesn't mean much anymore. Edited to add: The rule of "can't add or subtract" is fine, when you're dealing with objective requirements that can be measured. It's the BSA's lack of definition for the subjective requirements that gives us trouble, so most leaders just sign off. When we try to assign metrics to "Scout Spirit", we get derided for "adding to the requirement". Can't win. When it gets appealed, the District won't deal with it either. BSA needs to either allow the SM to interpret the requirement, or remove it. Can't have it both ways.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

Assuming that the folks in Irving read this forum (they'd be fools not to!), what advice do we have for them to make the program and policies better? WHat do we, the folks on the front lines (aka "Direct Contact Scouters") think needs changing for the good of the mission? I know Kudu wants a return to the original B-P program, so we'll just concede him that point from the get-go.:-) There are no right or wrong answers, and we don't need a long justification. If anyone feels compelled to argue a suggestion, please spin off a new thread. I'll start: I would like to see Cooking, Swimming and Lifesaving MB put back on the "Eagle Required List". (Required means REQUIRED...not optional)

Ditto what uz2banowl says. I have a scout in the same situation. Nearing 18, and we haven't seen him in over a year. Unfortunately, he transferred from another troop where all the requirements were signed off 2 years ago. All he has left is his project, and he will look to me to sign off on it. I agree the BSA rules need to be changed...in many areas. What power do we Scouters in the trenches have to make suggestions to National on program issues? Or are we just pawns who are expected to "love it or leave it"?

In a perfect scout troop, the PL will know when the scouts in his patrol are ready for a SM conference or BOR. He should pass this info to the SPL at the PLC. The SPL then schedules it with the SM, who coordinates the BOR with the troop CC. In a perfect world...Mom has no role in ANY of this.

Thanks for the input, GS_CS. My point in asking the question about BB guns was to confirm my suspicion, that in general, GSUSA is no more restrictive in "age-apppropriate" activities than BSA. The limiting factor seems to be the risk tolerance of the leaders and/or local Councils.

For the ranks that require successful service in a Position of Responsibility (POR), APL does not count. Must be PL or a troop level POR such as SPL, Scribe, Quartermaster, etc.

"it was cited as one example of military spending that was unrelated to military readiness" I work for the military...if that was a spending criterion, the DOD budget could be cut in half.

Thanks for all the sympathy! Went back to work today...the walk from the parking garage was about my limit. Go back to the Chiro tomorrow for another adjustment, then I should be "back on battery", as my submariner Dad used to say. Thanks, SW. I'm the first to admit I'm overweight and not active enough. Maybe this is what I need to get back in my daily swimming routine and reduce my stress level.

I can relate, foto. I have a 28 inch inseam and the switchbacks are at least 4-5 inches too long. The vertical zipper at the cuff makes hemming impossible, unless the zipper is re-set. Cost would probably be more than I paid for the pants. Last time I wore them, I bloused them with rubber bands (inside), like we used to do over our combat boots. We had this discussion once before, and there were several good ideas...one involved Velcro tabs that you could just cinch around your ankle. I don't know why the BSA has a hard time with clothing. THey are a vast improvement over the scout pants I have, but we're not all 6 foot 2 with 34 inch waists.

This article came first...interesting view of how GS councils operate... By LAWRENCE LATANE III TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER The controversy over the planned sale of a beloved and valuable waterfront camp on the Northern Neck could factor in a Girl Scout council's elections this weekend. Richmond-area Scout leaders opposed to the sale of Camp Kittamaqund in Northumberland County have recruited a slate of 18 alternative candidates to seek seats on the Girl Scout Commonwealth Council's board of directors. The candidates include two past presidents of the council who have criticized the board for deciding to sell the camp without seeking the consensus of Scout leaders. If the council's nominating committee accepts the candidates, the annual election could be a referendum over the camp's sale. "We are offering an alternative slate called the Evergreens," said Carole Noble-Park of Richmond, who has been a Scout leader for more than 30 years. "We've never had this many being nominated from the floor before," said Lynn Simms of Stafford County. Simms served as the council's president from 2000 to 2004. Her name is included in the alternative slate as a candidate for an at-large council seat. She said council seats are rarely contested and are usually filled by candidates selected by a nominat- ing committee composed of board members. About 200 voting representatives from the council's 12 associations will meet in Richmond on Saturday for the election. Each year about half of the council's 25 board seats are up for election. On even-numbered years, the council's six officers are also selected by vote. This year, voters must choose 17 council candidates as well as fill a vacancy for council secretary. It was unclear how many incumbent council members will seek re-election. Council spokeswoman Janice Williams declined yesterday to discuss the election, but said the council will issue a statement on Monday. Council leadership has remained out of public view since authorizing the sale of the 387-acre camp on the Great Wicomico River late last year. The tract of deep woods contains more than 3 miles of undisturbed tidal shoreline--a rarity on the Neck where waterfront is rapidly being converted to expensive housing developments. In one of its last statements about the camp sale, the council said in early March that it had been offered $16 million for the property. When a group of Scout leaders and Girl Scouts held a candlelight vigil in January outside the council's Mechanicsville headquarters to protest the sale during a board meeting, the board hired security guards to keep them off council property. Scouts opposed to the sale have received a warmer welcome at the Northumberland County Board of Supervisors. Moved by the arguments of the tearful scouts, supervisors placed a temporary development ban on land zoned for conservation, which included the camp. This month, the supervisors tightened subdivision restrictions within the conservation zone. The measure reduces the number of lots that could be carved from Camp Kitty from 210 to 20. The council had previously warned the county that it had been "advised to consider litigation." So far, the Board of Supervisors has not been sued, said County Administrator Kenneth Eades. Some Scout leaders are dissatisfied with the sale on environmental grounds, arguing that the Girl Scouts have no business converting open space into housing developments. Others have questioned the need to part with a camp where three generations of girls have learned to camp, paddle canoes and explore the Chesapeake Bay by sailboat. The board of directors, in an earlier statement, said the need to repair storm damage on the property, which is free of local real estate taxes, has made it too expensive to keep the camp. If voting delegates choose the alternative slate, the camp sale will not necessarily be thwarted. Pauline Cronin of Hanover County, who served as council president from 1994 to 2000, said the slate's main objective is to determine whether Scout leaders approve of the sale. She is running for secretary on the alternative slate. Its candidates have been motivated to seek office "by the secrecy and lack of input" demonstrated so far by the current board's decision to sell, she said. Earlier, she and other sale opponents asked the board to "please put the sale on hold until the membership could be consulted," Cronin said. "That was our only request -- and the very next day [the board] began negotiating with an unsolicited bidder." Cronin and the other 17 alternative candidates "are all in favor of involving the membership in the [sale] decision," she said. If Scout leaders endorse the sale, "it would be sad," Cronin said. "But, if that's the way they feel resources should be used, majority rules." Contact staff writer Lawrence Latan III at [email protected] or (804) 333-3461.

By LAWRENCE LATANE III TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER New members of a local Girl Scout administration say their landslide election last weekend might block the planned sale of a Northern Neck campground. A developer recently offered $16 million for the property, which contains more than 3 miles of waterfront along the Great Wicomico River in Northumberland County. Opponents of the Camp Kittamaqund sale took 17 of 18 seats that were up at the Girl Scout Commonwealth Council's annual meeting in Richmond on Saturday. The council released results yesterday of the election, which seated 18 new board of directors members and the council's secretary. The new members join 14 existing board members and council administrators whose terms had not expired. "We've called a board meeting, and one of the purposes is to discuss the future of Camp Kitty," said Sue Swift, a Girl Scout troop leader from Reedville who was among the candidates swept into office. She is optimistic that the board will decide to keep the 387-acre camp. "I think we can find ways to preserve and maintain the camp and not sell it," she said. Members of the slate, who called themselves the "Evergreens," included two past council presidents and others, such as Swift, who rallied support for keeping the tract in its natural condition for tent camping, sailing and canoeing. In November, the board of directors, citing maintenance costs and a decline in campers, voted to sell the property and eventually attracted a $16 million offer but did not act on it. The uproar caused by Scout leaders and county residents opposed to the pristine camp being developed caused the Northumberland Board of Supervisors to tighten land-use controls at the camp and other parcels zoned for conservation in the county. New restrictions approved last month reduce from 210 to 20 the number of building lots that the camp can yield. It remains to be seen what the new council leadership decides for the camp, which has been in the council's hands since 1964. The Evergreen slate was composed of people who either objected to the sale or disagreed with the way the board reached its sale decision without membership discussion. The council sponsors 18,000 Girl Scouts from a district that includes the Northern Neck, Fredericksburg and Richmond. "I feel we're out of the woods -- I think it's safe," said Tracy Hamm, a Duke University graduate student and Camp Kitty alumnus who helped sale critics organize through e-mail. "This is super-exciting." Tracy Coogle, one of the Evergreens voted onto the board, said she missed the annual meeting because she was camping with 140 girls and a couple of dozen adult leaders over the weekend. "Cheers went up all over camp," when word of the election came in, she said. "It was the perfect place to get this news." Contact staff writer Lawrence Latan III at [email protected] or (804) 333-3461.

When he was called out, he should have been given information on what to bring. Bring that...no more, no less. Ditto what others said about inclement weather...they usually watch for that and have a plan B in mind.

Having most recently been on the Council camp committee, I realize the Camp requires a lot of planning. They need to know how many to plan for, so they can hire staff, order food, stock the trading post, order patches and T-shirts, etc. The Camp Director has no problem imposing deadlines on us, and I will have no problem passing that on. We thought we were doing the scouts a favor by getting them all registered under the Early Bird deadline. Next year, I won't care.

Welcome to the forums, homeschool. Just out of curiosity, do the GS have a rule against shooting BB guns? I have never been a GS leader, but I married a girl scout. From what I've read, males are actively discouraged from being primary GS leaders, and the female leaders are less likely to want to do the "manly" things that girls seem to want to do. When it comes to heat, cold, dirt, sweat, snakes, bugs, and other discomforts, the GS leaders opt out. GS camps are being remodeled to include air conditioned cabins, computers and "activity centers", to keep their attendance up. Meanwhile, the girls are joining Venturing. Is there a message there? Now before I get flamed by the ladies out there, I realize I am speaking in generalities and there are admirable exceptions out there. But on average...

Just this past Monday, we were told by a Scout dad that "Johnny won't be going to summer camp after all. My work schedule has changed and our family vacation had to be shifted to that week." BAM, now we're out $300 bucks, because Johnny has been telling us for 6 months that he would be going, and we fronted the money to meet the Early Bird deadline of 1 March and ensure our reservation at this new camp. Most of the others have paid up, in installments, but Johnny has not paid anything yet. Never again will we front the money. THe deadline is the deadline, and if you've not paid, you don't go. Welcome to the real world. I suspect we may not be going to camp next year, because not many will commit (with real money) that far in advance.

3 days of sick leave and counting. DC says "displaced sacroiliac joint" which strained the ligaments...it felt wonderful Monday after the cold pack, electrical tingly machine, and adjustment, but the next morning I was crooked again. Lower back feels like I've been kicked by a mule, and whenever I stand for more than a few minutes, my right leg starts tingling. I go back this afternoon for another visit. As long as I stay stationary, it's fine, which drives me nuts. I can work...just can't get there...even with a HC permit, I would still have to walk about 100 yards. Luckily my boss is very understanding, I have good insurance, and I have my laptop to keep me wired to the forums! VCRs are totaled, so I won't be repairing them. It would cost more than they're worth. The TV part still works, though. If you read the "Tragedy" thread, the denouement was "distracted driving". They would not elaborate, but I suspect there was a cell phone involved. The families were very gracious and refused to assign blame, saying just that it "was a tragic accident"... There but for the grace of God go we...

Acco, couldn't agree more. I'm not a proponent of spoonfeeding, as my posting history will show. The SM and I (CC) had a lot of parking lot discussions over this one. He was never a "bad" kid...just scatterbrained and unmotivated. He almost didn't make the 18 deadline because I held the line on his project plan writeup quality. His mother even complained to Council that we were "refusing to help him get his Eagle". That almost did it for me, but I decided I wouldn't penalize the kid because mom's an idiot. Dad was in the Navy and never participated in the troop, and scout was forced to babysit infant sister most nights. I wish him well, but the ball's in his court.

Typical non-go getter scout completes Eagle after a year absence. Scouting history is that every rank was like pulling teeth. Had to push, prod, cajole, remind, every step of the way. Turns 16, gets car and job and comes to meetings about once a quarter. (I have to work!) One day, decides that to get his parents off his back, he'll complete his project. AWOL from EBOR...he "thought" that we couldn't proceed because we didn't have all recommendation letters in, so he just didn't show up. He writes letter of apology, give him benefit of doubt, EBOR is rescheduled and he does a good job. Meanwhile, he's turned 18 and is enrolled in Apprentice program at local shipyard. That was last September...haven't heard from him since. SM explained that ECOH was up to him, to decide what he and parents wanted, and let us know...anything from routine troop COH to formal affair with reception. Nothing. So how long do we wait? Just send his Eagle credentials to him in the mail? Take back to Scout shop for a refund? We feel dissed and used and we're not real keen on wasting any more of our time reminding, pleading and begging. Advice?

THe new CS motto: "What happens at the Pack meeting, stays at the Pack meeting!" I, too would have a problem with a Council giving away cash, that could be put toward program. Kids like recognition, and small prize items can be donated that won't take away from the popcorn profits. The council should set the example...would they approve a unit's fundraising application for a raffle?

I sit on Eagle Boards, and at least in my District, it would not be a problem. You might want to be prepared to answer a question about it (what was the reason that your fundraising fell short?) and what would you do differently. But it shouldn't be a deal-breaker. Good luck!

As I sit here in my La-Z-Boy with a strained back in the middle of a work day, I recollect how I got here. Last Monday, our SM (also OA Chapter advisor) asked if I could nab two of our scouts and do an OA election at a troop across town on Wednesday night. Being the "can-do" kinda guy that I am and needing a "cheerful service" tick mark for the week, I agreed. Tuesday night, I come home from work and find the OA VHS tape, DVD, written script, and blank election form with directions to the other troop stuck in my storm door. Wednesday at work, I grab a sandwich and lock myself in a conferennce room to preview the VHS tape, so that I know which of the 4 segments to play and get it cued up. Plug the tape in, the machine (TV/VCR all in one) sucks it in, whirrs for a second and then powers down. Power up and try again, the tape won't eject, won't play and the TV shuts down again. Muttering a few very decidedly un-scoutlike 4 letter words, I call the maintenance guy who takes a look and goes back to retrieve bigger screwdrivers. In a few minutes, he extracts the tape like a forceps delivery gone bad and hands it to me...but the VCR is trashed, having had mulitple parts bent in the process. So, I rush home at 5 pm, thinking I still have some time to preview the DVD, which works, but has intermittent stops, starts and flutters (It's a copy of a copy of a copy) and has visible scratches on it. SOOOOO...I think, "maybe it was the VCR, not the tape", so I go back to the bedroom and slide the tape into my wife's TV/VCR.....it sucks it in and proceeds to repeat the same thing it did at work...whirrs, click, shuts down. Eject button doesn't work. Wife comes home, and teaches me some new 4 letter words, and gives me until Saturday to get her VCR working again (she plays her yoga tape on it). So, I rush over to the other troop, arriving 15 minutes early to get their TV/DVD hooked up and cued...and it doesn't work. Nothing but snow on the screen. The TV belongs to the church and no one knew how to use it, but with 30 teens in the room, how hard can it be??? There's a bible story DVD right there, so obviously someone has used it recently. Finally, an ASM decides that he has RCA cables at home and is back in 10 minutes, hooks up the cables and VOILA we're in business! OA election successful, 2 of 3 elected (much to SM's relief who thought NONE would make it). FF to Saturday morning, I disconnect wife's TV and carry it to kitchen table for dissassembly. Sit there for an hour, finally extracting the tape after screwing a lag bolt in the front of so the pliers have something to grip. Plug in TV and BAM, VCR does not work...the tape cartridge tray is now out of alignment and a tape won't go in. I decide a new one is less than a hundred bucks, so what the heck (finding out later that you can't buy VCRs any more). Put cover back on TV and stand up and WHAM...that familiar pain shoots through my lower back which renders my back muscles into egg-like knots right under my belt line. I call #2 son and tell him to return TV to bedroom, while I swallow an 800 mg Ibuprofen and hobble to my chair. On the bright side, it did get me out of yard work the rest of the weekend. Sunday morning, I can hardly move, but wife informs me we have theater tickets at 2pm and concert tickets at 7:30. Being the macho guy I bravely get in the car, thinking that the sooner I get walking and loosened up, the sooner I'll feel better. Wrong! It did't work this time, and I had to stop 3 times to sit and rest between the parking lot and the theater, and spent two hours in pain sitting in theater seats designed for turn-of the century bottoms (and backs). I called in sick this morning, not because I can't work, but because I have to park a half mile away from my office in a parking garage and can't walk that far. My chiropractor opens at 3 pm and I will be there waiting for him... Just got a voice mail from our SM who will be late tonight because he's working late, so as the other adult with a key to the building, I will shake off the pain and drag my paralyzed body over to the church so the guys can have a meeting. So, I figure a simple good deed has cost me about $300, not counting pain and suffering, and a day of sick leave. Too bad it doesn't count towards our FOS goal.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

I'm not aware that the BSA ever produced a true "iron-on" patch. There were cloth-backed, gauze-backed, and the current plastic-backed. Some moms (and dads :-)) mistake the plastic back for iron-on adhesive, but it's not like the iron-on knee patches that my mom used in the 60's. I have seen Star scouts still wearing a second-class patch. Their answer..."my mom never sewed the new one on." They know that's not an acceptable excuse. When I was a scout, that new rank badge or merit badge would get sewn on (by me) the same night as the COH. It's a different world.

I think it's the way kids are being raised. Back in my day, in the summer we were kicked out of the house at 8 am, and didn't return until dark. It was up to us to make our own fun. We HAD to take initiative and find things to do, otherwise we would just sit and stare at each other all day. Today, kids have "handlers" (parents) who schedule their time, make sure they get everything they want, and even do the work for them when they get overwhelmed, lest they experience diminished self-esteem. (witness a recent Eagle project performed entirely by the Mom). So when they get to scouts, and are expected to take over and lead, it's a foreign concept. THey show up at the meeting, and sit and wait for the next 15 minutes of entertainment. During BOR, I ask what they don't like...90% of the time, "boring meetings" is mentioned. When I explain to them, that the person who should fix that is in the mirror, I get the blank stare...rather than conform to the boy-led concept, which doesn't fit what they've been conditioned to expect, they would rather drop out. It does not compute and makes them uncomfortable.

I'm not a lawyer...so I'm asking...is there a difference between a troop or council organized high adventure trip and a trip organized by a commericial outfitter such as "New River Adventures". In the commercial trip, I'm assuming that the outfitter assumes liability, since everyone has to follow THEIR rules, signs THEIR release forms, and uses their equipment? I agree with the others...the OCCASIONAL younger kid (son or daughter of a leader) coming along is OK, as long as they are not disruptive. And don't forget that BSA rules (and insurance) allow for "visitors" who are eligible to join as a recruiting tool.