scoutldr

If I were the CO, and the unit backed out on a commitment like this, I would have to think twice about rechartering the unit. The youth need to understand that their behaviour is not only un-scoutlike, but it's rude, selfish and inconsiderate. It's not just a matter of funding their fun, the CO is depending on their help. There should be consequences.

Despite what Stosh says, I understand your concerns. Boys that age will mimic what they see. Is that the weapons-handling techniques you want them to emulate with their BB guns? Seeing the show would be entertaining for all...but I wouldn't do it at a Scout sponsored event. Just my opinion...

To answer the original question, I live "somewhere down south" and I have not heard of such an incident. If it had hit the news, I'm sure Fred would have posted the article.

Sometimes I wonder if we're practicing "truth in advertising"... What if we advertised a restaurant with the best steaks in town? Then when you're in the door, you find out that the steers are out back, the tools are in the kitchen, and you have to do everything yourself, including cleaning up when you're done? I think when scouts and parents sign up, they expect everything to be provided for them...when the secret is revealed that they have to boy-lead (including planning, execution and paying for it), and the parents realize that if there's going to be a program, THEY have to participate, a good many say, "forget this"...it's too hard. I had a parent once who thought that being Cubmaster was my full time job...and that since she had paid her $10 registration fee, I had an obligation to please her as a customer. Just a random thought...

Ditto what eagle90 said! Unfortunately, I don't see a way forward with this. The mom is intent on producing a neurotic, dysfunctional mama's boy/man, and we cannot stand in her way. The only one who can influence this is Dad, and it sounds like he's dysfunctional too...the term "whipped" comes to mind. At least it sounds like they're rich enough to afford the therapy that will be coming down the road. You might suggest that Perrier can be added to the patrol menu, but only if she pays for enough for everyone!

As this thread winds down, I guess I share some of the responsibility for igniting it. After all, I was at the EBOR. I am not in favor of a BSA-sponsored "witch-hunt". But I do feel that when the information is placed in front of you in a sealed envelope (Letter of Recommendation), we have a responsibility to factor it in to the decision. What do I think should have happened? 1. I think the SM and CC should have called a special troop committee meeting to let everyone know the scoop prior to the EBOR. Its' not fair to blindside the Eagle Board members, and then claim "we didn't think it was relevant to scouts". That's a copout...they tried to hide it and they got caught. 2. I think the District was wrong in overturning the original Board's decision. Such things should only occur if there was some procedural error or misinterpretation of the requirements. For requirements such as "morally straight" and "Scout Spirit", there are no stated requirements, so the Troop committee gets to decide. 3. The moment the young couple found out she was pregnant, they gave up their right to the benefits of being a "youth member". They have committed an adult act and now have the responsibilities of adult parents. Playing the childhood game of scouting advancement is no longer a benefit that you should have the luxury of, and you certainly should not expect to be treated like a role model for the younger scouts and the public (aka, "Eagle Scout"). For the record, the scout did not show any sign of remorse, regret, contrition or repentance. His attitude was "hey, stuff happens." In fact, he was proud of the fact that he was living the baby's mother with and "supporting my child" (as much as you can with a part-time minimum wage). He was an "avowed" fornicator, and proud of it. Is that any better than being an avowed homosexual or atheist? Some here seem to think so. He said they DID plan to wed...eventually. Don't know if they ever did. But we all know that such marriages are usually doomed to failure, and we all pay dearly for that lack of judgement.

In another thread, Beavah writes: "So let me take a step back. I think in the end, if we focus too much on specifics, we lose the goals. Dluders, in your mind, is this boy an Eagle Scout? That is to say, is he a boy that you'd be happy standing up in front of a room of other people - and especially other younger boys you're trying to mentor - and saying "This is what an Eagle is". Then joining in applauding the lad. ... But if he's not a boy you can genuinely hold up to the parents, CO, and especially to other boys as an example and "hero" of sorts, then yeh have an obligation not to, and to keep working with him. And if your program is promotin' and signin' off on such lads, then yeh should be about fixing that, too. Eagle isn't the spot to catch things. A Star Scout should also be a good example to younger boys." Thanks Beav! That about sums it up for me.

Thanks for all the excellent brainstorming! Keep it coming! I would like to see ALL BSA forms and publications available on-line in .pdf format. That way everyone has access to the latest version ALL the time. Failing that, local Scout Shops should be prohibited from selling off supplies of pubs and forms if a newer version is available.

I was dutifully converting all my light bulbs to compact fluourescents to reduce my "Carbon Footprint", until I read an article reminding me that they all contain elemental Mercury...a highly toxic liquid metal. Once all these CFLs start hitting the landfills, we're going to have another environmental problem on our hands unless they have a strict Hg reclamation program. Same thing is true when these Hybrid vehicles hit the 10 year mark and those batteries need replacing. Danged if we do and danged if we don't! Perhaps it's all part of God's plan to keep the Earth from overpopulating! Biblical (and geologic) history shows that every so often, He just cleans house and starts over! We're due for a housecleaning. PS: Speaking of Manhattan Project, I did my graduate internship at the Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee, back in the late 70's when it was devoted to energy research and making enriched uranium. The facilties are still there...time to crank it back up!(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

The first EBOR was troop level. The SM and CC knew about the situation, but chose not to share it with the other committee members who sat the board. The SM/CC stated "what's that got to do with Scouts?" I think they (the committee) were more angry at being blindsided (via a Letter of Recommendation) than anything. They felt that premarital sex and out of wedlock children were not behaviour reflective of the Scout Oath and Law, especially since they were representing the CO, a church. The thing I disagree with is that the District was able to overturn (annulment?) the subjective decision of a Troop committee, even though there was no problem with the process. Standard procedure when a Board denies a rank is for the Board to tell the Scout what he needs to do to "measure up" and try again. Unfortunately, in a case like this, you can't "undo" the deed and make it go away. Personally, I have been torn over this issue, and it has caused me to examine my own beliefs and whether I can still in good conscience serve as a member of the BSA, where some sins are forgiveable and some are not.

I was the one who sat the EBOR for the 18 year old father. As the District rep, that's exactly what I did...adjourned the board and called the DAC. We had just read the letters of recommendation and the scout had not yet been called in. The advice was to hold the board and let the chips fall. The Board denied the Eagle, and was overturned on appeal at the district level. (Another EBOR was held with all District people who did not know the scout.)

There was the time some 30 years ago when my young bride was making Crock Pot chili. Got the chili powder mixed up with the cinnamon. "Interesting twist on the chili, dear!"

So, premarital sex is OK, as long as it's heterosexual and they eventually get married? But let a scout declare that he doesn't think there's a God and he's out on his ear? More of those contradictions I mentioned. My head hurts.

Yep! Class of 1970! Welcome!

That's what I love about the BSA...you can always find something in the literature to support ANY side of an argument. Contradictions and ambiguities...they make life easier, so you can do whatever you want. OK, I'll bite. If it's the SCOUT who determines whether they've met the SS requirement, why is it a sign-off requirement for every rank? From now on, we'll just ask the scout if we should sign it and if he says yes, we sign it.

In my troop, the answer to Lisa's question is "yes". That requirement is the SM's to sign off. The BOR asks about it and discusses it with the scout, but if the SM signs the book, it's a done deal.

Another comment on "dropping" inactive scouts from the roster. Recently, our SE ordered that any scout who was not re-registered would be called...by the DE or Commissioner staff. Many responded that "nooooo, we didn't quit...we still want to be members!" The units were then told to get their money and get them back on the roster. Gotta keep those NUMBERS up! Doesn't matter if they are "active" or not. Bottom line is, if they pay, they're in.

As I have posted before, I have first hand experience with EBOR and appeals. We had a scout once who was denied Eagle at the EBOR. He had a child out of wedlock and was living "in sin" with the girl. SM and CC knew about the situation, but scheduled the EBOR anyway. They either did not think it had anything to do with Scouts, or expected the EBOR to "do the heavy lifting". One of the troop committee members on the Board was livid, based on Scout Spirit and "morally straight". He was even more angry that the SM and CC had withheld this information, which only came to light when one of the Letters of Recommendation revealed it. The secret ballot was not unanimous. The scout appealed, a District EBOR was held and he was given the Eagle, because "he had met all the requirements". So in my experience, I no longer have much respect for the process. 99% of the Eagle candidates I see are worthy...most 110% worthy. But anyone else who asks for it will get it too...eventually. I am an Eagle, class of 1970. I feel the process has been watered down so much, for the sake of keeping the numbers up, that I feel it's been cheapened and doesn't mean much anymore. Edited to add: The rule of "can't add or subtract" is fine, when you're dealing with objective requirements that can be measured. It's the BSA's lack of definition for the subjective requirements that gives us trouble, so most leaders just sign off. When we try to assign metrics to "Scout Spirit", we get derided for "adding to the requirement". Can't win. When it gets appealed, the District won't deal with it either. BSA needs to either allow the SM to interpret the requirement, or remove it. Can't have it both ways.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

Assuming that the folks in Irving read this forum (they'd be fools not to!), what advice do we have for them to make the program and policies better? WHat do we, the folks on the front lines (aka "Direct Contact Scouters") think needs changing for the good of the mission? I know Kudu wants a return to the original B-P program, so we'll just concede him that point from the get-go.:-) There are no right or wrong answers, and we don't need a long justification. If anyone feels compelled to argue a suggestion, please spin off a new thread. I'll start: I would like to see Cooking, Swimming and Lifesaving MB put back on the "Eagle Required List". (Required means REQUIRED...not optional)

Ditto what uz2banowl says. I have a scout in the same situation. Nearing 18, and we haven't seen him in over a year. Unfortunately, he transferred from another troop where all the requirements were signed off 2 years ago. All he has left is his project, and he will look to me to sign off on it. I agree the BSA rules need to be changed...in many areas. What power do we Scouters in the trenches have to make suggestions to National on program issues? Or are we just pawns who are expected to "love it or leave it"?

In a perfect scout troop, the PL will know when the scouts in his patrol are ready for a SM conference or BOR. He should pass this info to the SPL at the PLC. The SPL then schedules it with the SM, who coordinates the BOR with the troop CC. In a perfect world...Mom has no role in ANY of this.

Thanks for the input, GS_CS. My point in asking the question about BB guns was to confirm my suspicion, that in general, GSUSA is no more restrictive in "age-apppropriate" activities than BSA. The limiting factor seems to be the risk tolerance of the leaders and/or local Councils.

For the ranks that require successful service in a Position of Responsibility (POR), APL does not count. Must be PL or a troop level POR such as SPL, Scribe, Quartermaster, etc.

"it was cited as one example of military spending that was unrelated to military readiness" I work for the military...if that was a spending criterion, the DOD budget could be cut in half.

Thanks for all the sympathy! Went back to work today...the walk from the parking garage was about my limit. Go back to the Chiro tomorrow for another adjustment, then I should be "back on battery", as my submariner Dad used to say. Thanks, SW. I'm the first to admit I'm overweight and not active enough. Maybe this is what I need to get back in my daily swimming routine and reduce my stress level.