Scoutfish

Well, yesterday was out 3rd summer fun day. We went to The Battleship USS North Carolina BB-55 ALOT of scouts and parents said they couldn't wait to go. ALOT said they were looking forward to it. 4 scouts showed up! Sure, it's August, but yesterday was overcast and not as sunny and the temperature was actually about 5 degrees coler than it had been all week. I know the ship doesn't have A/C on it, but we didn't find out about that until we were about to go aboard. But there are high velocity fancs running through a duct system which did substantially cool the ship down. Yeah, I'm really disappointed about the turn out. I do realize it;'s summertime and we only have one full week before our school starts up again, so I do understand that kids and parents are trying to squeeze that last bit of vacation time in ( we are going to Georgia for a 4 day weekend next weekend) before school starts , and some school shopping no doubt. Might even be that some folks are tired of going to the USS NC. Yesterday was my tenth time in 20 years. I don't know? Could it be that it's just still new too me and I'm over enthused about it? Anyways, we missed earning the National summertime pack award, den awards and such...but did have two scouts ( who will ) earn their National summertime activity pins for making all 3 events. Ahhh....there's always next year!

You know...sometimes, when you are thinking a certain way...you just take for granted that everybody has the same mindset as you. So anyways, in my original post, I said that Jambo should be an entitlement. I still think so, but what I did not convey was this: Jambo is a BSA program and a BSA oppertunity. All scouts in good standing should be entitled to go -BUT- it is not BSA's place to take them by the hand, nor does that mean BSA has to be financially responsible for each scout to go. Things cost, There are expenses and costs for EVERYTHING. BSA was not able to do this for free, so the scouts should not expect a free ride either. But shouild all scouts be entitled to go? Yes!

You ever just start reading a thread, while maintaining just enough distance that you don't jump in or reply to it? As you read the thread, you think: "Oh man, this is a train wreck that just hasn't hapened yet!" But then you leave the thread. You might not come back for a day or two...maybe longer. But when you do come back to the thread, something cool happens: You see things from a different angle. Used to, I saw leaders with different ideas that could not, would not even try to see another person's point of view. I saw that, given a group of people, they could not compromise even the slightest bit for the sake of the program . Nope! It was their way or you were just wrong. But like I said, you then suddenly see something different. Right now, I was reading this thread in which some experienced scouters were argueing about SPL's. Sounds so simple at first, but if you dig even only an inch under the surface......it's not so much about SPL's , but about the entire program itself. What you see are people who grew up THROUGH scouting in a particular fashion......and -whatever way they came through the program - it changed enough in that person, and made enough of an impact ...that they want to make sure that part never goes away. Basically, as long as adult leaders come together and argue even the smallest finest Scouting detail...then scouting will not only be alive, but will be alive with a passion! Now, as a child growing up, there were no packs or troops in my local area. Well, not in my neighborhood anyays. Nobody talked about it, nobody mentioned it...so for me, at least, the oppertunity didn't exist. I wish it had. As much as I enjoy my involvement with my son as an adult leader ( went from parent volunteer to , ADL, to DL, to now, the CM)...I really wish I had experienced it from the youth side. I will not live my life through my son, but I will encourage him to stay in scouting all the way to the end. All because of the fine folks I see argueing to no end, the small details!

Something else I have wondered about: Todays generation of kids tend to be ...overall. more violent, less respectfull, and more likely to act impulsively. Back when I was a kid, you respected ( most) adults , and did it woithout having the threat of getting you butt whipped. You didn't talk back, you didn't fight back against everything, and for the most part, everybody trespected everybody else. Today, 12 year old girls can almost pass for 21, by 21 , they might have 3 kids out of wedlock, and the father's are probably in jail if not dead. What is it? WEll, aside from teachers being sued if the spank you, parents being arrested for abuse if the spank you.. I wonder if it's all teh sugars, preservatives, caffiene or who knows what - hormones in chickens and cows? Something is making 13 year old boys have full beards and weigh in around 200 pounds. Girls are well..... fully developed and ready to pro-create! Remember when we grew up? The "junk" cereal we had was life or raisin bran. The rest of the time it was corn flakes or wheaties. We either drank Kool-Aide or drank water. That was it! Milk was for lunch , tea for supper. You could probably count all the different brands of candy bars on both hands. Count all the different cereals on both hands. No caffiene drinks, energy bars, and no drugs for every concievable "social issue" that kids had! Am I the only one who wonders about the connection?

The first time I used a DO, was when I was an ADL at our family pack campout. I mixed all the ingredients, and closed the lid. I was sifting through some coals I had already put into the fire to get the right amount ( per recipe) of coals on top and bottom. Well, the ACM was just looking at me with this sly smile and trying not to laugh. I can't help but smile when I ask him: " What's so funny?" He asks me :" You want me to teach you a GREAT DO lesson?" I say sure, and he takes a shovel, makes a "gravy hole" in the oak coals,and sets the DO right in the middle of it. He then puts a scoop....a BIG scoop of coals on top of the DO. As time goes by, he says " You think it should be done by now?" I say probably, and he says: " Give it another 20 minutes!" That was the best tasting peach cobbler I ever had! It's only heresay if it doesn't come out right!

I am not gay. Never had a "gay" thought that I am aware of either...but I suppose that I have a certain amount of close minded bias because, if for no other reason, I do not really know what the fine line of seperation is between gay and straight thoughts. But in all fairness, lets make a comparison: Gay people are considered deviant because they do not pro-create with people of the oppositte sex no? It is also pointed out that they CHOOSE to do this in free will! Explain then , the priest or nun who is celebate. And they do so by choice and free will. Does that also not go against the natural way, nature and God's human design? Not taking sides, just pointing out one side attacks the other side for doing the same thing. I am not a bigoted, predjudiced or biased ( that I know of) person. I suppose we all have a touch of it, but we are human afterall.I do not do it purposely or consciously, but suppose some stuff still might happen. I just find it arrogant and callous for somebody to say that being gay is deviant because.......the bible says so. Really? That same bible also says that YOU DO NOT judge others! That bible says LOVE each other regardless. It says that we ALL are not perfect and are born into sin. It DOES NOT say that some sins are better than others, that some people who are "apparently perfect" are the exception to judging others. Granted, this same religious kind of thinking also said it was okay to start massive wars because other did not think like us. This same thinking also justified slavery for many a years in the southern US and hundreds of countries. Certain religious groups think its murder to kill, yet will kill those who stand in the way of our religion. If you look at it closely, we are not different than those we call extremists. Maybe the Taliban, perhaps? Are we really that far from throwing stones and carrying guns? WE are already trying to make and enforce laws on people to FORCE them to live by OUR religion! Now, I beleive in God. But "Organized religion" really scares me. Mob mentality takes precidence over common sense and the good morals that religion is supposed to promote. One of the funniest things I ever saw was a genuine "redneck" at Wal-Mart laugjing at a black Jesus statue. He was condemning the "poor fools" who miscolored it. Well, I am a mischevios guy sometimes, so I walked up to him and asked him if he knew where Israel or Bethlehem was. I asked if he knew where the middle east was. Once I told him where it was, I asked him if he really thought that a baby born in Israel, who grew up on the East Bank and Gaza strip .., one the boarder of the African and Indian continents was really the pasty ashen white guy we see in our bible book pictures? The look he gave me was enough. Maybe somebody should explain that one to the KKK Okay, I am rambling on, my point was...we are pretty arrogant and smitten if we condemn behavior because it is not ours...and we use OUR religion as a basis of fact.

Going bacjk to my original post.... I said that we tend to be more critical of our own than others. This can be good, but sometimes, it can be bad. My wife can spend an hour in front of the mirror fixing her hair and makeup before an evening out. I look at her and think: " WOW! She is soooo freeaking hot!" She looks in the mirror and thinks: "WHat a trainwreck!" Matter of opinion. Likewise, we are harsher on our own kids than other kids. Thing is, we may not realize it. What you saw as "struggling and barely finishing" may have only been the normal "slower and lest efficient" stride after going at it for a bit. ALSO... I said put them in the water as often as you can. DO NOT just accept the MB as a end all to swimming. Keeping those boys in the water will only do one thing: Make them stronger, more efficient and better swimmers. Just because a counciler doesn't do something to your percieved "okay" doesn't mean it's not okay. Taking away or voiding a badge is the quickest way to ruin it for a kid who may just say : "Screw this scouting stuff! I worked my butt off for nothing!" Again,you may be completely right...but still - don't ruin it for the scout!

" I think we do want to teach generosity and gratitude. It's OK to accept a campership, or a scholarship, and a lad who accepts such things to further his scouting or his education shouldn't be saddled with negative attitudes about "taking handouts" or "not paying his own way." I agree again! And you know.....later on down the road when "that lad" is all grown up, has kids and enrolls his own boys in scouts.....2 things could happen: 1) Dad remembers alot of great stuff that happened in scouting and sends his own son... 2) Dad contributes extra money towards other scouts in the form of camperships or sponsoring a child who's family could not afford it. Maybe dad owns a big company that donates by way of FOS or maybe donates 10,600 acres of land like the Bechtel Family did in W.Va Then the "hand out" come around full circle does it not? Is it really taking charity if you give the same or way more back? "I think the meaning of A Scout earns his own way is clear to all." WEll, I'd say no, apparently not! How much is actually the scout and how much is his own way when we buy popcorn that we don't want or useless junk at a yard sale? Imean, we can call it what we want, but plain and simple, we bought it to help out! We buy junk we don't want fron a troop or pack to whom the junk was given for free, not bought, and the kids have no vested labor or interest in the junk. Call it what you want, but you just gave a handout. Wink and nod all you want, it's charity. But it's not the end right there is it? It's to supporet an organazation who's purpose is to mentor and encourage personal growth amongst our youth.

I hope that didn't come out harsh or sneery sounding as I did not mean it that way!

I guess it comes down to this: Pay for some schooling in the hopes that those who are schooled will be educated enough to get jobs instead of collecting welfare because they do not have half the intellgence a dead cow!

jblake47, You make a great point ..EXCEPT one thing: You are comparing scouts to PAID PROFESSIONAL ADULTS! I wear the uniform, except the socks. I have no reason to buy Scout socks - that nobody will see - for an exagerated price whan I can wear regular socks . Sure, I love to see the BOYS ( Read: not adults) wear a full uniform. I praise them and give them props for doing it. Although, I DO NOT chastize a scout for not wearing a full uniform. But realistically, they are BUYING into the program, or we as parents are ( read: $$$$$) . WE are speding money to be part of a group. That in itself does allow some room to be slightly out of uniform. Incidentally, I suppose a US Marine cannot accuratly fire his rifle or make a kill in he's in anything but fatigues? A police officer cannot remember what the law or general statues are without his full uniform? So much for plain clothes detectives! And a Dr or ER physician who just happens to be at the beach, mall or restaurant cannot render any helpful assistance or medical aid because they are not in full scrubs? OKay, I know you get the point. Just saying, the uniform does not make or break the scout, but is only merely a small part of scouting. Outr previous CubMaster liked to go around saying : " Sports or other functions are what you do, but scouting is what you are!" My son is a scout because of who he is and the way he handles things, not because of how he is dressed! Again, I love to see the boys in full uniform, and I will praise them immediately for it, but scouting does not start at or end at the uniform! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Our uniforms are mostly a "waist up' thing. Myself and a few other leaders wear the pants too. Some( not me) wear the socks even though you can't see them. We expect the uniform at pack meetings, and pine wood derbys. We require it if it's a public event such as when we welcomed WWII veterans home from DC, Distric PWD, scouting for food, or any other public presentation. Den meetings? Nah, it's up to you. Dens are a little bit more like an extended family function. You can wear it if you want, but not required. And like a few others said...during certain sports seasons, some scouts go straight from one event to the next without being able to change. Of course, cleats, shoulder pads and scout shirts clash, but what can you do?

Let me stress that I do not mind paying for stuff for my son when it comes to scouting....he's only 9 years old- not gonna make him get a job. AND He does do stuff around the house and prep work for scouting related stuff too. I just don't try to tell myself that "He paid his way" because he is doing stuff I'd make him do anyways.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

We havn't used a letter yet. We talked about it,, but we had 120 cub scouts at our last recharter, so we are going to tone down a bit . But when we discussed the possibility of using a letter, we talked about doing a "grid mailing" You might call it something else, but the object is the same. What is is - is this: You pick a neighborhood, distict, area, etc... and then tell the post master of a post office that you want to do a mass mailing ( cart-sort /current resident)then they will eithetr give you actual available address numbers in use or available to use.( chance you send letters to un occupied houses, or vacation homes). I have no idea what the cost is. My company does it for customer roundup.

Oh man! I soooo agree with you. I can pay $10.00 for a quart size tin of old/cold/stale Trails End popcorn or go to Wal-Mart and buy a 5 GALLON can of 3 flavor old/cold/stale popcorn. Truth is, we go through the motions to convince ourselves that we are making whoever is selling "whatever" earn the money. I eat the Kiwanis pancakes every year even though they are cold and chewy because....it's the Kiwanis. Any restaurant try to sell me that nasty pile of round cardboard...I'd ask for my money back AND never patronize that place again! Whenever I break down and clean out my truck...I mean "really" clean it, I always find suckers and packs of mints and such that I bought from the Lions Club. I do not eat or use their stuff, but well. I support them. So my Webelos son wants to earn money for whatever in Scouting. How does he do it? By cleaning his room? By doing homework? By picking up toys in the yard? That's stuff he should be doing anyways without bribery. I don't get paid to clean my room, cut the grass or take my son places. Wow! Didn't mean to go off on a rant. Beavah, I agree with you completely. The only thing we can really hope is that our sons don't figure out that they are not really earning their way. And we can hope they do more each and every year instead of doing less or ultimately just sitting on their butts and expecting everything for nothing! Yeah, I have seen some scouts and parents who couldn't do less if they were in a coma!

FScouter I get what you are saying about a bunch of scouts just sitting on their butts and doing NOTHING AT ALL to earn assistance, but I did not get that impression from the original post. That, and take into account that the corporate sponsor may have approched the troop/pack without any invite or prodding. Now lets talk about " we might get our car washed even if it doesn't really need it, or by a 2nd hot dog, or buy some less than useful junk at the annual yard sale." Completely honorable intentions, no doubt about it, but still- a rose by any other name is still a rose! Asking people to buy useless junk - or more commonly...overpriced mediocre tasting popcorn at outrageous prices...is still asking for a handout. The popcorn or useless junk is a token prize or a (nod, nod - wink, wink)good ole boy attempt to convinve ourselves that we are not asking for handouts. The key thing here would be to have your scouts maybe go police the parking lot of the corporation ,or at the least, have all the scouts sign a thank you card. Maybe the troop would give a portion to the CO to offset some expenses or costs in utilities , etc.... Being thrifty is a great trait, but thrifty will also accept a donation too. Just as long as the scouts don't sit on their butts and whine about waiting to get a handout...then a donation is great! Speaking of popcorn.....Seriously, I can sell a potential customer a small quart size can of plain popcorn for $10.00 or they can go to Wal-Mart and but a 5 gallon size can of caramel, cheese and butter popcorn for $2.50? Sure some folks will buy it from us, but again..it's not about the popcorn at all...it's a donation.

Nah, nothing wrong with a bit of rambling. I thought it was interesting. The only thing I am curious about...and I say this having NO boy scouting experience...is why so many things are above his age availability. I mean, you'd think a scout camp would at least have as many things availible for his age group as their were for the older boys. Actually, you'd think there might even be more activities for your son as that's the best way to retain scouts to reach the older ages. But at the same time, camping without having a entire days activities scheduled out is a good thing too. Tell him it's his job to cook at least once a month at home now!

Seems to me, that there is a want for to argue wether people ( as it may pertain to this site) who abuse and molest scouts might be more predominantly heterosexual or homosexual in Nature. Then the following of references which only prove that a select control groups ( possibly from different countries that also have different social views on such behavior) - are no more than "one upmanship" attacks on each other. But what about what should be the focus here: SCOUTS! Are any of you gonna spend more time and energy figuring out the sexual nature of an abuser or potential abuser than actually just preventing abuse? You know..that's a great thing about YP and certain parts of G2SS. No one on one contact. Always 2 deep leadership. Granted, BSA can have their heads stuck up their collective butts sometimes, but they sure made homo vs hetero abuse a moot point! They recognized abuse as being abuse and not gay or straight abuse!

It's a pretty good article, but isn't "guyland" just another way of saying -"Hormones gone wild!" ?

I comp[letely agree with that! Earlier in the thread, somebody commented: "You may find your biases unsupported." I can only say: People with biases , do not recognize their own bias and will find support in some shape, way or form...wether factual or not!

Okay, all fancy words aside..and not try to be so academically pompus - I say look at a simple obvious, yet un-noticed stat here: Priests and Alter boys. The priests are male, the boys are male, they are in a somewhat secluded situation.. But suppose it was women priets and alter boys or priests and alter girls. Would the incidences of occurance bethe same? Higher, Lower? So , yeah, I bet there may be a case or two where homosexuality is the core issue.....But I'd bet that most likely, it's more a matter of oppertunity and availability than a matter of sexual preference. Know what I mean? Nale priests and male alter boys. Is it really homosexual or is it just that there isn't a choice between the boys who are there and the girls who are not there?

I'll star with my usual disclaimer: I am not a Boy Scout, my son is not a Boy Scouts, not have I ever been a Boy Scout. I am also not a meteorologist, but I know when it's raining, snowing or the wind is blowing though.... Okay, Evmori pretty much just laid down the law there. There is a set way to become Tenderfoot. No if's , and's or But's about it. But I am going to venture a guess as to why they did do that: Was your son part of only one or two new boys to jion this troop? Maybe they wanted to bring up in rank to be on an even keel? Maybe they did not have enough newer boys and didn't want him to feel like the oddball? Not sure what the reason was, but in the long run, It only takes away from your son. Not that he might ever know, but it does. Anyways, the troop may not have had any malicious reasons behind skipping requirements, but it still is a bad idea!

Having had more time to think about the original post, In say : Yeah, there are absolutely some people who wear the uniform to boost their ego. But those same people could walk into a room of people and dominate the whole conversation by talking about how much they make,how many degrees they have, how big their house is, what the kids are doing and all the honors they have recieved, etc... You know the type: No matter what anybody does, they or their kids have done better! But then you have the rest of us. Those who are not running around backwards in hopes that we hit somebody's hand for a pat on the back. We do not have to be in the spotlight front and center to be the center of attention. Me? I admit, I think it's cool to wear the uniform whenever I can. Why? I don't know!!! Maybe because I really, really enjoy scouting and I am having fun doing it. I like working with the boys. I love to see that look when they finally master a skill or are able to do that one troubling thing on their own. I love when that timid boy takes part in a skit and realizes afterwards that he did have fun and the whole world wasn't critically eyeing him and waiting for failure. I like wearing the uniform because I belong to something important to me: SCOUTING! Just like a kid with a new toy that carries it around everywhere. He eats with it, sleeps with it, can't go to the bathroom without it. No. I'm not quite that bad with my uniform, but taking the time to think about it....and even pushing all the methood stuff aside.... You have to admit, when "MOST" adults take pride in wearing their uniform, then they also take pride in what they do. That translates into somebody who is going to do the best job they can.They won't settle, take short cuts or go about it half heartedly. I cannot think of any reason this would negatively affect the program. Like I said, you have a few adults ( everywhere and in everything) that do stuff for the wrong reason, but we can spot and pick them out easily in a crowd. So can everybody else, so soon enough, they get overlooked and their behavior doesn't reflect badly on the rest of us.

Should they? YES! It's like asking : Should all people become good citizens? Can they or will they all be Boy Scouts? No. Some will noit want to, some won't understand what it's about, and some may want to, but their parents will not allow it due to the most minor of reasons.

Some of our boys earned their DA belt loop. Thing is, we have to remember, it is an awareness thing. Ignoring it, blowing it off, or avoiding it because WE might be uncomfortable about it only does one thing: It keeps the boys from ever learning or understanding a disability. Education is the key! Of course, almost every kid in our pack knows of somebody...mom, dad, grandparents, cousin, any relative or friend who has some sort of impairment or disability in some shape or form. WE are close to many military bases in my area. Disabled vets, wounded vets and soldiers. Evensomething as simple as a kid with ADD or an allergy ( my son is allergic to nuts) is a great wat to learn. It's easier than you think to teach these kids. Of course, you can't start discussing why neural pathways won't transmit certain signals, but you can start with: "See Bailey. He's your friend right? Been your friend for years and does everything you do too, right? But did you know that his body will not tolerate any kinds of nuts? He will get very sick if he does. He does not have a choice about it. Yeah, a nut allergy is not a disability, or is it? Nah, it's not, but you step up to the next level: Glutins, then the next level. Point is, you show the scouts why a disabilty is something that is not who we are,m just something we have. We are still people inside who have feelings too. Now, there are always a few kids who might still crack a joke every now and then...but listen long enough and you learn they are not predjudiced. They will crack on anybody and everybody equally.