Scoutfish

" Allegedly trained leaders knowingly flaunt the camping guidelines, and then wonder why the council gives them so much grief. Stunning. Your actions undermine everyone who tries to do things the right way. And before you tell more sad stories about how your district or council stinks, I stand by my comments from several months ago that there is likely more to the stories than you'll ever tell here." Wow, before YOU tell any more, I think we know all we need to about you. You took different members posts and contributed them all to one person? Then automatically assume the one pewrson is completely at fault. How arrogant!

WEll, uniforms isn't just it's own thing. It is a part of scouting wether we particularly want it or not. May not have started that way, but is the way it is now. For instance, the new scouts each year love the uniforms. They may not have them on correct, or done right, but they love them. But where it really kicks in is after that first pack meeting when a scout is handed his Bobcat badge..which he gets mom to sew on his uniform so he can proudly display . THEN IT'S GO TIME! Now ever scout wants to earn the next bead, next patch, next doddad or make a slider so he can put it on his unifrm or uniform accessory. Somewher along the first couple months of the first year of Webelos...the uniforn loses some of it's appeal. But at trhat time, most of our boys are into the coolest novelty t shirts or compression shirts, sports jersy or whatever. Not so much that they no longer like to display stuff, but they like to display different stuff. Could be a Redskins jersey, or VanHalen shirt or a retro Pac'Man shirt. Speaking of..Does anybody know who "The Angry Birds" are? So the thing about the uniform is that there is not just one feeling or sentiment from the scouts. THose feelings change just like their tastes in food, xclothing, tv shows, reading, and everything else goes. Now in our pack, we never criticize a scout for not being in correct uniform. Matter of fact, we only ask the uniform from the waist up . I see no reason to by a $30.00 pair of scout pants just to see two brand new holes in each knee after the first meeting..and yes! I have seen it too many times! Now, when I see a scout in full correct uniform, her gets a high five and a "Job well done! " When I see a necker that is crooked or upside down, I will help adjust if if the help is wanted. If a scout has just a shirt on and it's not tucked in, I might say sometyhing like: "Those shirts really look cool when tucked in." and leave it at that. No more, no less. No attitude or condescending tone either. WE praise proper uniforming, but do not criticize the opposite. Our main focus is scouts having a great time so they want to stay in scoutin g and keep coming back. If the uniform is a part of that - GREAT! If not - Great!

Yeah, I was just saying because somebody mentiuond leaving it in one account only. But In will say I have a clean and clear conscience about how we do it. I am not trying to wildly justify or cling to reasons to justify what we do. Wether the unit buys the stuff and loans it only to members who pay dues, or the unit purchases the exact same equipment for the perosons use in the exact same mannet. time and place is all the same to me. As far as that goes, anybody who joins scouting is enjoying a personal gain by the way of adventure, camping, games, fun, and learning. Not muchj different than going to Disney land if you ask me...either way you pay for the use of equipment that you don't keep after the event. You pay Disney in cash, you pay the unit in sweat. Both ways you trade something you have for the use of something they have ..and you do it for personal pleasure and experience...which is a gain. As far as what the IRS says is right or wrong...well,. tell me you agree with the death tax and that a wife is subject to an inheiratance tax on her own house and car. While what the IRS says may be leagal...it has no connection to or relavance with automatically being right and just. I am totally cool with having your own and a different opinion. Same arguement couldm be over wether Ribeye or T-Bone is a better cut of steak. But it is your opinion. And just because mine isn't the same as yours, I can very easily say that I am not desprately trying to justify not am I cloudy in my conscience over it. Now......who wants to buy some popcorn? It's REEEEEAAALLLLY GOOOOOOOD!

Could just be the knife. Like cars and trucks ...a company can be very dependable and build high quality vehicles...but you still get one every now and then that is a lemon or wasn't made right. I have several Leatherman utility knives. One works like a Cadillac. One is a hatefull timg that never worked good from the first day. Got it as a gift, so I never took it back to wherever it came from. It doesn't want to open either. Blades don't want to pull out except one.... and it practically falls out as soon as you touch it. Could be a mar in the casting or cut. Could be a burr in the metal. Could be the hinge rivits are pressed too tight or the pivot holes are not cut square and line up evenly. Could be anything. I think the shadowbox idea is a good one. Then go out and buy another knife.

Let me be clear on something...we don't have an actual account for each scout. WE just have our general account, but have it broken down as to what it is, where it came from, where it is going and we have a record of what each scout has in his "account" For example: If 12 people are going to camp, and 3 are going to use money in their scout account, we would collect money from 9 people, and then cut a check to council that covers 12 people. The the treasurer would look in her records, and deduct the camp fee from the 3 scouts scout accounts. We do not actually have seperate accounts for the scout that we transfer or depost money into. Think of you own bank account at home. When I get paid by direct deposit, It all goes into my wife and my joint account. But in our hear, we can say this amount goes for car insurance, this amount is needed for the power bill, this amount is paying the cabl;er bill, this amount will be used for groceries. So, in a way, we have seperate accounts for all our expenses, but all the money is still in one physical account.

I can see "possibly" ( cringing while saying this) bringing the movie for Tigers or Bears who are spending their very first time in the wood..or very first time camping ever..but beyond that, I'd only have it on standby in case of rain. As far as for the sticks and rocks comment (and I am not saying this harshly or maliciously) - well yes and no. No it does not have to be rocks and stick only...you also have leaves and hiking, and exploring, and running around , and campfires and marshmellows, etc... That's the whole point of camping. To get away from what you do everyday, and to see trhe world in a different way. When you go on vacation, you could still drive a company car, answer your company phone all day long and still do work, but doesn't that make the whole vacation moot? Why not tell every scout to bring school books, homework, a big tote full of toys, couch, sofa, etc.. KNow what I mean. Camping doesn't mean you are going to the stone age, but it does mean not doing what you normally do on a daily basis. And that's why it's great., why is so fun, and why your shower and bed at home become altars of worship once you get back home! Now having said all that: When ever we go camping, we never had a problem finding some fun activity for scouts to do. Give them 3 minutes, and they will be running around playing tag, hide and seek, war of "who has the coolest stick" , pine cone throwing competitions, etc... Matter of fact, the problem we DO always have is trying to get them to sit still long enough to eat or wash the dirt off their hands and faces. For us, going camping is like giving the scouts a big bag of sugar and an energy drink!

I could see playing a movie as a backup for a whole weekend of wet rainy weather that causes you to cancel over half the planned activities. But for a campout where things are going as planned? Nah, I wouldn't do it. Not saying it's wrong, but it does make the whole point of camping a moot point. I'd rather have campfire storie, jokes, and skits. And whenever we do skits..I can't tell what the boys enjoy more...watching them of being in them and getting the laugh. I can maybe see hanging a sheet up and playing some kind of sillouette game or shadow figures.

Well, up til spring/summer of tis year, I never had to deal with it. I know that our last 2 awards guys just paid then got reimmbursed for awards. Glad I didn't think of something crazy. Not something that came up any previous leaders meetings!

Just wondering in any other unit does trhis, something similar or something different entirely. We had one of our Bear dads step up and takeover as awards chair this summer after our existing awards chair crossed out with his son. But before our new guy tookover,I acted as temp awards chair. Mainly it was just picking up awards and paying for them. I might have mentioned that our pack - while not huge - is not small. One month, I picked up $384.00 in awards. Next month, I picked up a little over $250.00. Then before graduation I picked up another $230.00 in awards, and almost $450.00 in neckers and rank handbooks. Now, I don't know what any of your yearly incomes are, but I can tell you mine doesn't come close to Bill Gates or the Speaker of the Houses'. Matter of fact, I have watched my pay almost drop by 1/3rd from 5 years ago. I install garage doors in case you were wondering. So, I don't know about you...but one payday, I might have no problem paying for the awards and getting reimburses a few days later. But some paydays...after paying the insurance on my house, my truck, my wife's car, then the electric, then the cable bill, water, etc.... well it just adds up and leaves me pretty tight. WEll, not digging in the couch for penninies, but relying on all my paychecks together. Know what I mean? Might have a hard time rubbing two nickle together! Okay, long story short: WE had our treasurer cut a check to the scout shop for the amount of $500.00 Since we are not actually buying anything at the time, it becomes a $500.00 credit. Then we hjave set it up so that only our awards chair, the CM ( me) and our CC can charge towards it. When our awards chair does charge awards to the account, he brings the reciept back to the treasurer and in a week or so, she will cut another check to bring the balance back up to $500.00. Actually, it's more of a case when the balance drops to half, we will bring it back to the $500.00 amount. Again, only myself, the CC and Awards chair can charge to this account. We decided a few years ago that the pack would not have a bank or debit card..the chance of misuse would be to great. So have any of you done something similar to this? Something 180 degrees differntly?

"Yeah, me neither. I think I know what I want to say, but am having trouble putting it into words. Boomer, welcome to the club. I am not just a member, but I am also the president of "Wayward Words Club for Men" .

" from a group affiliated with Boy Scouts " So is this group affiliated as in a group that has done stuff with the Boy Scouts in the past...or affiliated as in a part of Boy Scouts. I mean, I can understand if the money came from BSA, but if it comes from a completely different group than the BSa..then the school board is doing exactly what they don't like that BSA is doing. Kinda like, If I am an anti gay, racist person...I understand that you wouldn' take my donation. But if you refuse a donation from my landscaper - who I pay to cut my grass - because he is "affiliated" with me..then that's just nuts. Anyways................

I wouyld have told rthe man you were passing out free $50.00 gift certificates to everybody on the stgreet, but since you didn't want to trespass... As for the scouts..well, hard to say. Boy will be boys, They may be punks, they may just have been caught up in the excitement of making a sell. Could be they were trying to "protect" their turf. You could mention something to the CM, but at the same time, we have to realize they may not have had malicious intent. I have to remind myself sometimes, that the boys have a totally different mentality than I do and they may not be thinking or even aware of what I think they mean with the actions. Know what I mean? At that age, alot of boys cannot see beyond the next three steps into the future , muchless comprehend the bigger picture of anything. Benn a few times I would have liked to pich some scouts head completely off his shoulders, but then I realize that at 40, I have at least 30 years worth of being older, more expeienced and seeing things in a different light. Notice I did not say I was more mature! You already saw what a great oppertunity it was for a lesson. Totally like the "bigger person" point you made. You can tell your son that he is completely right when he says he has camp to pay for, but point out that the other boy, and many, many more are in his same situation. I think you handles it great! But you could still call the other CM and just say: "Hey,thought you might like to know......"

"This is an internal BSA memo from the Tax attorney at national. I actually spoke with him directly and he says that BSA does NOT support this practice. " Nah, I think that's a load of BS. If National really didn't support or like that Trail's End gave out incentives...they would stop it. Now in our council, not only will you get a gift card(s) from Trails End and that Disc shooter - but our council will give you a dic shooter and similar gifts cards of a different value for exceding the goals during Blitz week. Then after all is said or done, a drawing is held amongst the top seller for a portable dvd tv or i-pod touch or MP3 player. Then the top seller of each unit ( who meets the base $$ amount) gets invited to an outing at a local putt putt/arcade/go cart track/ lazer tag/pizza joint. And that's council, not Trail's End putting that on.

If you burn it in the campfire..that's okay, but hope you bring some hickory chips with you to toss in that fire to hide the smell! Or bring a camera to catch the expressions of those who unexpectingly catch a wiff of it!

Yeah I tried to do it through the ARC to with no luck. I contacted a private training center which offered a GREAT course, but the fee wasa bit higher than what my leaders wanted to pay. So one of our leaders contaced the training officer of the local EMS station andf she put together a American Heart Assoc Certified CPR/First Aid class together for us for $10.00 a person . The fee covered materials and the certification cards. She brought 2 assistants with her and enough adult, child and infant CPR maniquins and plenty of handouts and booklets for first aid. We have 95% of our adult leaders certified now and will be having another class this Dec for the rest of the leaders who didn't make last class and new leaders who signed up since then.

Ditto what Basement and Scoutnut said. But just the basics. No need to go into deep detail since , like you sid, there are so many directions you could go with this. I'd print a sheet that lists links to BSA's Form site, G2SS, Cub Trax, Scout Trax, Pack Master and Troop Master as well as Pack Ledger. Give them links and directions to find the stuff they need to know. Just go over each thing on a basic level. Other things should include two signatures on each check. Scout accounts, selling and fundraising. And a pack/troop training chair so units get somebody who can kep everybody up to date and straight on who needs what anf what is rrquired versus what is just extra - case in point: BALOO is required for pack camping while Webelos Outdoor is not required but just extra. No Baloo, no pack campouts! PERRIOD! Tell them to have 4 or 5 people take it. And then explain the difference between a CC and CM , what their duties are and who is "supposed" to do which duities and responcibilities. If you have real life exdamples or experiences ..bring them up as they are easier to relate to that hypotheticxal situations.

So...I remember from Long ago and far, far away that if you weren't taxed on te first $600.00 in income. Worked for a guy over the summer who would either cut you off when you reached $600.00 or you claimed half your hours and worked the other half under the table so that it took twice as long to reach your $600.00 > Well, at least on paper. Granted, this was back in 1989. No doubt that the IRS has added about 23,475 new laws since then, but is this even close anymore?

Okay, myself and the CC and ACm had a pre meeting- meeting. This was to discuss exactly what to do with sales from the chicken dinner, popcorn, and camp cards. We decided that donation made during chicken ticket sales would go into a seperate slush fund to be used if and when the pack falls short of money for pack camping, crossover ceremoiy supplies, or to fund camperships. Popcorn, we will split the units 30% share into three shares of 70% fr scout account, 20% for den , and 10% for pack. That ten percent won't be much, but is more out of principle than practicallity. Show the scout he is helping te pack. The $2.50 our pack gets from camp cards will be divided as follows $1.50 for scout account, %0.50 for den and $0.50 for pack. Pretty much the biggest intake for the pack is the chicken dinner, and the biggest intake for the scout account will be camp cards. Popcorn is so little an amount that it won't make any signifigant differenace if we used it to light a campfire.

I will say "signs up" ONCE at the begining of pack meetings. Say it, not yell it. But truth is, that's more for the benefit of the parents. With the scouts, I only have to raise my hand up in the sign.

As an aside, we do keep extensive records of who earns what, what they spend it on, etc. For example, if scout Billy uses his scout account money for camp, uniform, scoutbook, tent (from scout shop) we keep records of what, when, and how much. We never actually hand any money to the scouts, we just allow them to use money from their accounts at the scout shop. But we have to have the treasurer and CC or CM authorize it.

Here is what I am saying: First, I am going to trust the scout will use it for scouting and the scouting experience..unless they give me a reason to do so otherwise. Secondly, when any scout joins scouting - everything he gets out of it is for personal gain. When he goes camping, the scout goes camping, not his neighborhood or anybody else. Just him,. He gained by having that adventure. He gained by having thet experience. Technically, you could change your sales pitch to say: "Buy popcorn so you pay for this scout go to camp and have fun without the scout having paying for it himself." Personal gain if you want to get technical.So why do we see thsi as different? Because maybe while being part of the program, the entire community or even the nation gains something in the way of community service, Good Turn for America, LNT, Scouting for food, whatever other good deeds and service projects you can think of from Tiger Age to Eagle Scout projets. So maybe a scout cannot afford a tent AND a sleeping bag AND the camping fee AND the uniform AND etc... And yes, we had 3 of those scouts last year. One used his scout account to help pay for everything he has..and he is sticking in the program because he loves it. Single mom, never knew his dad, mom works all kinds of hours to get ahead. The pack provided the uniform, and everything that goes with it . We also handle the recharter fees too. Could he borrow from somebody? WEll, not when they are camping that same wekend too since they are using that equipment. Secondhand shops and thrift stores? Nah. I go in them to see what they have sometimes and I have never seen ant scout uniforms. I haven't even seen anything non uniform that could even be close. Things just might be completely different whetre I live. Point is, you could tear the entire popcorn trhing aprt if you wanted. Parents pretty do most of the work selling popcor with most scouts. But that does not mean all scouts. So maybe scouts in your area might use scout accounts to buty backpacks and then sell them for cash...but it doesn't mean mine will. Now as for personal gain, even the Trail's End sales form gives you a amazon card or walmart card with cash values of $20.00 and $50.00. Our council will give you a $50.00 WalMart gift card for being top seller of the unit() and selling at least "X" amount of popcorn. That's straight profit sharing , no? WE use scout account for scout related stuff. We do not use it for WalMart or Amazon. But you also have to look at this: Our best selling scouit ":might" sell $600.00 with mom or dads help, but we usualluy see sales in the neighborhood of $50.00 . For $50.00 in sales , the scout isn't going to have much of a fleecing operation.

Scoutnut, A scout could also buy a uniform shirt and sell it for cash. He could take his council prize for selling alot of popcorn and sell it for cash. He could use his scout account, go to camp and do absolutrely nothing to do with scouting..which would then make it a simple, plain personal camping excursion. He coukld agree to transfeer $200.00 of scout account assets to another scout for $85.00 cash if he wanted to. But if he buys a backpack and a mess kit and maybe a sleeoing bag from the scout shop, and just uses them only one time and quits scouting for whatever reason..then I still see it as he used it for scouting. And the boys did work for what we get wether donation or ticket sales. They signed up, went out and worked it. Just because somebody makes a $3.00 donation versus a $6.00 chicken dinner ticket does not mean the scout was not selling and workling the ticket booth. It just means that somebody either didn't want a dinner, or the didn't want to break a bigger monetary note or they only wanted to part with a small amount. Matter of fact, alot of people would say that since they were from out of town ( we are a beach town), they wouldn't be here during the dinner, but would buy a plate anyways and just tell us to keep the ticket or just donate the same amount as the dinner without buying one. In case of telling us to keep and give the ticket away, we would give them to the needy, or on duty police/fire/ems, etc... And if we want to be technical, any money the scout gets is a personal gain. He went to camp on other people's dime. Other people paid fior him to go to camp. They did not go to campm themselves, the scout did not pull monmey from his own wallet..other people pay for it. And it is the scouts gain. SCout goes to summer camp, gets a tshirt or patch which he could also sell. Now, if it is a weekend camp, and he or his parents cannot afford to buy a tent, or sleeping bag, or other needed equipment..what does he do?

Back when long distance was anything outside of city limits..we didn't have to dial but 5 numbers to make a local call. This was before touch tone was available in my county. Matter of fact, 911 and enhanced 911 was the single biggest factor for touch tone replacing pulse dial. Anyways, if your neighbors number was (910) 867-5309 , all you had to do was dial 75309 and it would call then with no problem. Anything outside of city limits, you would have to dial 1- then the area code and then the 7 digit number. If you were going to make an out of state call,..you could spend almost 3 minutes waiting for the rotoray dila to get back to start by the time you dialed the whole number. Want to call another country? Had to have operator assistance. Anybody remember the old Mazda commercials? "Sakes alive! Sakes alive! Mazda's got a truck for $3995.00!"

Since this was a camporee, 4 patrols were combined into two patrols. Have no idea why, but that is what I was told. So they have a troop trailer and park it next to the shelter they used for a kitchen/ dining area. Each patrol had at least 1 coleman gas stove. The younger age patrol had two Coleman gas stoves and the older patrol had 1 gas stove and what looked like a Jetboil style tower cooker. I say Jetboil style because it might have been another name. Black with red logo wrining and not bright orange and blue like the jetBoils I saw displayed at Pow Wow. Now here's the thing: I watched the patrols cook with stainless frying pans that have the heaveir gauge bottom. They also used a heavy guage pot to boil...well, I don't know what it was they were boiling, but they ate it. So, the mess kits they were using were aluminum kits that appeared to have an equally sized cakepan shaed top and bottom. They were either hinged or snap hinged together. Maybe about an 8" diameter with 1" hig sides. The utensels varied, but the common design was that a fork was connected to a spoon ande knife by a ring in the handle. I can imagine they had a cheap set, but since my son saw the btroop using THAT set....it must be the best mess kit ever created in the history of mess kits. Therefore I wil have to buy one like theirs.

Well, I am not saying that we are going to hand cash or credit card to the boys. It would go into a pass account that can be used only toward scouting related stuff. Either for pack , district or council camping. For uniforms that are worn during pack, disrict, or council scouting events. Equipment or gear that is used duriong pack, district, or council scouting activities. Could be the scout needs a new uniform shirt because he outgrew the last one. They are not given a gift card that they spend at WalMart of Gamestop. They do not blow it at the candy store either. Thing is with donations..they are intended for cub scouts to do cub scout stuff. What stuff is that? Well, I don't know as alot of people think we will be throwing hatchets whiule wearing our Davey Crocket coonskin hats, shooting .50 calibre blackpowder muzzleloader rifles, canoeing across Lake Michigan , and using sticks to light 3 story tall bonfires. But that's isn't how it works does it? We have quite a few boys who are single parent kids who's moms ( well one is a dad) who work all day and most of the night to make ends meet. They cannot afford our cheap dues, uniform costs, camping fees, or much else. But they find time to help out at events and to sell tickets too. That scout gets credit for those non specified donations by working "X" number of hours and that's where he cets credit to his scout account to pay for camping, uniforms and other stuff that they could not afford otherwise. Now, I want to clarify, when we get donations during ticket sales, we are talking a dollar here, a dollar there, sometimes $5.00 and on rare occasion, a twenty. WE are not talking about people who are dropping 100 dollar bils at our feet. Also, agin, look through the donors eyes and not our "been in the system and know what really happens eyes". These people donate for 2 reasons: to help the pack do whatever it is that it does, OR they donate to get us out of their face at that moment. Of corse, I suppose te word "free" might be the cause of confusion. I do not mean free without obligation or intention of use. I do not mean we stick it in our wallets. What I mean by "free" is that the money does not have to be specifically tied to recovering expenses or the costs of food, drinks, plates, napkins, utensils, LP gas, or any other costs associated with the fundraising dinner. , but could be set aside and used for scout accounts since they are working for the good of the pack. In that regard, they are no more unethical than scouts who use camp cards for personal gain( they are the ones camping on somebody elses dime after all, right?)....or popcorn for personal gain ( same thing..camping, scout related trips, etc...) Pretty much anthing a scout does in scouting is for personal gain wether the education, the mentoring, or any and all trips, camping, or other experiences or awards. But i am pretty sure the word "free" was misunderstood. I just meant free of the chicken dinner.