Scoutfish

I want to be more clear on my post: While my pack recruits at those 3 schools, so do the other four packs in my area. The DE actually runs the signup event, and each pack gets a few mins to talk a little about themselves. WE are on the coast of NC, but the population isn't just spread evenly. There are 4 packs along the edge of our district. Then you have a pretty good gap between the next area of population and other packs. WE have creeks, rivers, inlest and bays as well as a HUGE amount of protected gameland that splits the county up in different areas. The 4 of us who share the schols are okay with it as there are 3 schools full of kids. The population is huge in our area...so if your pack isn't pulling kids in ( which is happening with one pack) you are not doing something right. Our pack is the biggest and draws the most new scouts in...but that's not bragging. Matter of fact, we worry about getting to big again like we once were and hope that the day doesn't come when we have so many scouts that we have to set maximum quotas of scouts or a membership cap

Okay, never broke my ankle before, so I cannot say I know whats in store for this boy...but... Does he use crutches at school? If he does, then I have to ask this: What defines a hike? Rough terrain, up and down a hill? Over the hills and through te woods? Or can it be flat ground or steps? See, I am thinking that this scout , a parent, and maybe the SM or an ASM could just set aside an entire saturday and maybe drive 5 miles away from the unit or the scouts houise. Put on his backpack and toss in some atyer, gatoraide and some snakcks. And start walking at your own pace. Give encouragement, but be supportive. THis scout might surprise you and himself.

Nothing real special. We hand them our during pack meetings. The DL does explain what the are for and how the scout worked had and earned them. WE do something a bit more involved when rank is earned and go all out during crossover and graduation ceremonies

We recruit from 3 public schools and have had flyers forwarded by email to a coupe home school parent groups. The 3 schools are as such : S.Topsail Elem - 1/2 mile south of our pack. Topsail Elem - 1 mile Norh of our pack N.Topsail Elem - 2 3/4 miles north of our pack.

That's a really cool, way to put it Beavah. That's the way I have always felt, but just never sais it so simple. I know too many people who while growing up did just that. They took parroting for believing and taking as their own. And over dumb stuff too. I have seen people get upset and have family spats over what brand of truck to drive. Everythiung was hunky-dory until Jr has an epithany about what he really thinks and feels. He goes against mom or dad and the entire family breaks down. Father's and sons not talking for months or years. But I have always thought that was cool because at least, a person has a beliefe based on what they really believe instead of what was basically brainwashed into them. So of the worst juvinile delinquents I have ever know were preachers sons and daughters and some of the coolest most compasionate people were the former punks and neighborhood no-gooders. Thye difference was one finally found their true beliefe and were true to themselves. The others were bombarded with the agony of defendin g their beliefs without knowing why they believed them. "Chevy is the best truck ever because my daddy, and his daddy, and his daddy before him always drove a Chevy. And all I am ever gonna drive is a Chevy!" ( even if one of the others is better!) Yeah...thinking and searching on his/her own til,they find what fits right. I like that!

If your still siting down, go ahead and take another drink.... I did not see anywhere that Merlyn ever claimed that Athiests were more moral than Christains, or that they were superior. Matter of fact, I'm not sure Merlyn ever singled out Christians over any other God believing group or gods believing gropu either unless citinga specific example to collaborate his point of view. As for logical..well, actually makes sense. I mean, I myself have a strong belief in God, but faith and logic are not the same thing. Faith is believein without proof. Henceforth, I have faith that there is indeed a God. Logically, it does not make sense as in my 40 years, I have yet to see any proof that there is a God except by the people who printed the bible. And as far as print goes, you can buy a certain weekly magazine or newspaper that will give the same proof nthat elvise flies aroun earth in his ufo looking for his pet bigfoot he lost while fishing for the lockness monster. Now, don't confuse that statement to mean I have any doubts or disbelief about God. Matter of fact,I'd say it only shows how strong my faith is by the fact that I can actually see how logic does not support my beliefe.....yet I still hold that belief as strongly as I do that breathing air keeps me alive. Point of the matter is this: Just because Merlyn and I do not agree on wether there is a God or not , doesn't change what words mean, or wether he is right or wrong in the use of those words. And as reverent goes, it is a feeling or showing deep and solemn respect. You may be revernt to God, any number of gods, to the US flag, the Unknown Soldier, your parents , or just be that was during a solomn funeral service, or towards your just newborn child. Yeah, for you, it can be to God, but it doesn'mean you have to have a God or god to be reverent.

I wholeheartedly agree! I also have repeatedly told my cubs to no end to hold the marshmellows about a foot over the coals. I think I would have a better chance of convincing the lizards on my deck to not run away as I have no malicious intentiuons when I walk up the steps of my deck. But you know what I hate worse? Scraping sticky marshmellow corpses of my shoes the next day or trying to remove the army of ants that have taken up camp next to a bench because of sticky marshmellow all over teh bench, teh grass, the bush next to the bench, etc.. I also hate the flying flaming marshnellows that result froms scouts shaking the stick at 100 mph to put out the flams. Looks like the Roman Empire army of archers shooting flaming arrows at the enemy. Seena few scouts get burned by flying marshmellows too. It's a constant thing too. Personally, I like the idea of marshmellow tacos over roasting on a stick. Take a couple mini marshmellows and drop them on a soft taco shell. Sprinkle a few chocolate chips and crumble some gramcracker in there too. Fold it over and wrap it in foil and lay it in the cola sfor a minute ot too. Let cool for a minute and hand it to the kids!

Back when my dad was in the US COast Guard, he did spend some time in Special Police duty. I guess that was their version of MP's. Anyways, instead of changing his uniform or having a different uniform for that duty, it was just a black wool armband that was about6 inches in length and had the yellow SP on it. So I am wondering ( since I do not have the cash to throw down for a second shirt) if you do do the same? Maybe take a old shirt and cut the left sleeve off of it and maybe even have a short tan suspender that wopuld hook to the epualetts to help it stay up. Then change your loop from blue to silver. coversleeve could have your Commisioner patch and no unit numbers, andf the real sleave underneath could have your pack patch as well as the unit numbers. Just slide the arm band on or off as needed.

83Eagle, I suppose I focused most of my attention on where yop said : "The victim, not the perpetrators, are the judge of that." But I agree where you are saying: "But if yeh really care about da boys you might want to consider a little broader definition." But it goes broader both ways. Broader in what hazing is, but also broader in what hazing isn' I mean, just look at PETA: They do great styuff and it's for a noble cause, but the get carried to far away. They consider cathing fish for consumtion to be abuse. They consider raisning chickens for cunsumption as abuse too. In PETA eyes, I can go to the beach, catch a fish, take ity home and clean it and I am on the same level as the guy who tosses dynamight into a river for kicks. I am considered the same as a guy who takes a shotgun and wastes chickens for the sport of it. They do not see the difference of me taking only what I need when I need it, and using it all without waste. Granted, PETA is not the so called victim, but they claim to speak for the victim. But wouldn't yopu agree that the intent and reason behind the action does make a huge difference? Fishing just to catch them becaue you can versus fishing for substanance. Intent trumps a standrd braod blanket definition. WEther or not the victim understands the intent changes nothing about why the "agressor" acted. anyways, I'd hate to see a well intentiond person who was only trying to bolster a freindship by having what he thought was a fun thing to do..be labeled and outcast as a hazer and an abuser .

pack....that is a great idea! If you whole unit did that at one time, and started singing "It's raining Men" or "My little buttercup" ( Three Amigo's style), or "I'm a little teapot". Anything that is just flat out silly! Then I can see unit after unit purposely forgetting to take their hats off in order to upstage the last unit!

"Scoutfish, Just what, exactly, IS a dumpcake?" REally? I thought it was a basic staple of scouting. When you make a cake in a dutch oven but "dump" everything in it and mix it all at once instead of using seperate bowls. I make a mean peach dump cake. I take two yellow cakes mixes, two large cans of peaches in syrup, and a can Mountain Dew or Sprite. But any citris type soda can be used . Drain the syrup off the peachs and dump them in a 12" dutch oven, dump both yellow cake mixes into the DO. Then open the can drink and pour on top. Them use a spoon to mix it all together and put in in the fire for 45 minutes to an hour. Tachnically it's supposed to be 350 degrees (10 coals on top and 14 on the bottom - rotating out coals every 15 minutes) but we usually have a fire using oak or pine instead of coals when we camp. But it turns out great.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Of course, I want to also add, while growing up, we had a guy in our neighborhood who was a real "flamer". He didn't openly just tell anybody, but never hid it either. He'd wear white spandex pants with pink trimed white cowboy boots and tan leather jacket with the fringy tassle things all over it. And carry a purse. But he would readily admit that he did not cut grass because he was not made for "hard labor". And you wouldn't find him camping in the woods or at a scout function anyways because that stuff was too in extreme and harsh conditions. THis guy wouldn't go to the beach becaue the sand might scratch his skin. Not that we really hung out with him since he didn't appreciate normal boy things like shooting each other with bb guns or building forts, playing in the ditches, or stuff like that. Point being, the guys who model that behavior or act like that probably are not the type to go treking in the woods on a scouting trip anyways.

On a funny note here: Jeff Foxworthy brought up an interesting point. Granted, it was in jest and for humor's sake..but an interesting point at the sae time: "If you cannot remember the last time you had sex with a woman, you are either married or gay." If your bed has a sham, a dustruffle and decorative pillows on it, you are either married or gay. " And lastly: "If instead of watching the football game and drinking beer , you are at an antique shop on the weekend, you are either married or gay." I used to work with a gay plumber ( no, not a joke set up - even though it ought to be). Had he not told me he was gay after working with him for a few months..I would have never known. He didn't talk gayly, didn't dress or act gay. He talked about trucks, four wheeling, landscaping, hating to have to reshingle his house, how he did while target shooting his rifle over the weekend, etc.. Wore blue leans or Dickies or Carnharrts all the time and wore Timberland hiking boots everywhere, Denim shirts or canvas shirts. Dressed like Elmer Fudd except for the hat. But we never talked about anything that would make me think he was gay. So, this guy could have been a scoutleader and nobody would have ever know anything diferent by his actions or what behavior he was modeling . You'd have never known unless he told you. Likewise, I have known and still know scout parents who are as straight as an arrow, who are 100% hetero as far as I know..and they walk around with the steriotypical limp wrist, use a cream or lotion for any and everything under the son, spend more time of their sock/shoe match than I do getting dressed and driving to work, and sing broadway showtunes and schedule their life around the tv show Glee. They bring a mimi cappacino/expresso machine camping with them and there is a satchel of pot pouree hanging by the entrance to their tent. They won't go into the woods without changing clothes at least 3 times and carry a small box of cottonballs in case some dirt or a bug touches them. They also have smokin hot wives too for some reason. Figure out which has the behavior you don't want modeled for your scouts.

NOw, let's be clear...I am not supporting any independant for office, or any particulat independant. But in the past, we know they never get close to having a substantial amount of votes to win. But after the last couple of years, the infighting and ..well, DEms and Reps just acting like kindergarteners over everything, the Dems being Bullheaded, the REps doing the same( admit it, if one side said fire was hot, the other side would say it is cold just because it was a different answer).... I'd bet that this election will give the Indepndants one of the best shots of winning tey ever had. Not saying they will win . Probably not by a long shot - but they will have had the best shot they ever had yet. Bet if he was still running for office, Ross Perot would put up some serious competition for Obama and whoever the other guy will be.

Well I somewhat disagree 83Eagle . While I wholeheartedly agree that a legal definition is lacking as Ic can exclude what is hazing by technicalities...and it also can include a too braod a definition by technicallity only....... I do not think the vitems feelings alone are the set standard for what hazing is. Why? Because not everybody is te same or feels the same. And yeah, I do think we should look at the individuals reactions and feelings before we do something that might embarass them or hurt and humiliate them....but I do not even begin to think that we should let that one person's feelings set the standard fopr everybody else. That's where all this trouble starts in the first place doiesn't it? If somebody is a class clown, and loves the attention...they don't care what it takes to get it. They will even do stuff that might be humiliating by the other boys standards. So which set you go with? Do we decide everybody should be fime with doing "X" just because scout Johnnny is and has no feaf of anything as long as he gets attention? Or do we decide that nobody can do "Y" because scout Timmy is a bashfull kid and any type of audience will cause him to be embarassed and to feel humiliation? I have boys in my pack that will absolutely refuse to stand up and do a skit for fear that they will embarass themselves, and when their whole den lines up on pack nights to get awards, a few will get their awrd, turn red in the face and sit down after recieving it while the rest will stand until the whole den is done. Some boys are terrified at the idea of performing in a skit in front of their den - much less the entire pack, while others will do anything ...anything at all just to be able to perform and get aplause. "The victim, not the perpetrators, are the judge of that. I disagree. While the victem should be a substantial part of the consideration of whether you should persue what you are planning on doing...they cannot be the sole judge. Again, the instigators intentions are the bigger judge. Maybe I had great and nobile intentions, but things didn't turn out the way I wanted. Maybe I just made a big freakin mistake. Maybe I read the victim wrong? It doesn't mean I was doing something bad, it just means I screwed up and things ended up differently than intended. But supposiong I did have malicous intent and my purpose was to cause humiliation, embarassment and anguish. It's a big difference. For example: I could make an announcement during the middle of a pack meeting athat out COR just had a birthday, and that we were planning on having a cake, but due to firecode, some new act by Dept of Homeland security , etc... that we couldn't buy that many candles at one time. And our COR would smile from ear to ear and shoot a snappy comeback right at me. He's the type to enjoy that and laugh it up because he knows that we rfeally think of him as a co leaders and part of our family insterad of some formal stuffy position of higher authority in the pack. But you know what......we have a few women committee members who would be not only horrified if I did tat to then, but might even run out of the room and be AWOL for a month or to afterwards. So..I would not let that woman say I was hazing her. But I would immediatlt agree thatr what I di in good faith of having fun, and what I did with noble intentions was in fact, a big screw up and error on my part. I would readily admit that things did not go the way I planned and I would apologize without hesitation to her for embarassing her. But just because she didn't like what I did or feel awesome because of it does not make it hazing in any shape way or form.

I hear yah brother! In my first year as CM, I had major doubts as to wether anything I was doing mattered. Wasn't sure if the boys were getting anything out of what I was doing, didn't know if the other leaders liked wat I was doing or if I was helping them do their jobs. Didn't know if the boys got anything out of it. Lot's of doubt and lots of stress! But at one pack campout - during a night hike - I had a Tiger Cub tell me I was his hero. When I asked him why, he told me because ( using my words here) , unlike the other adults, I spoke to him instead of at him. I would ask them how they were doing when they arricved and asked them about home, school,etc. I would look at them and listen when talking to them, and I would luagh and joke with them too. PLus I wasn't too scared to get up and sing and dance with them at pack meetings. After that, I started noticing that all the boys would run up to me before den and pack meetings and were always saying "Hey Mr Fisher" and wanting to hig five me or shake my hand.. Must have been lots of things that would have showed me they liked me, but I just didn't see them until after that boy told me I was his hero.

Okay, the only way I can begin to explain this is to not even explain it.( see link at bottom of page) Every year, we'd lose a few scouts here or there. One year it might be 10 out of 120 scouts, Next year it might be 3 out of 80 scouts. Might be 2 out of 100 scouts....but you always lose a few. Could be mom or dad or it could be they go to another pack because of schedule/chemestry/CO/conveinence, etc... So at our 2nd or 3rd pack meeting of the year, I had an idea. I made a bet with all my cub scouts last year. I bet that 70% of the scouts in all the dens had to earn rank and see the whole year through. Then I told them I didn't think they could do it. When they shouted : "YES WE CAN!" I said : "You wanna bet?" And we bet. Their terms. The bet was if 70% of the scouts in all the dens met rank and stuck the entire year out...I had to dress like a ballerina for the last pack meeting. And I did. Complete ballerina outfit as well as my hiking boots, scout hat, necker and scout socks. The laughed at me. I mean laugh so hard you fall on the floor and almost wet you pants. The pointed, laughed some more, clapped and cheered and hollered at how silly I looked and how I loost, they won etc... Parents told me that they didn't think I'd really do it as well as a few leaders. Now, this was my first year as a CM, but after that night, almost every person told me they had alot more respect for me because I did what I promised I'd do, I showed them that keping your word meant something even if it was from an adult to a child, and that laughing at your own self is fun and okay. My leaders told me they had no doubt that I was the perfect person for the job, and the scouts thought I was great because I have no issues acting silly and being just like them when the time calls for it. And as far as I know, all the boys have finished therapy by now! And we only lost one scout all year - because the family moved due to dad having a job transfer . So what is my pointy after all the jawjacking and rambling on: I know alot of you would be too scared or humiliated to do what i did . But I wasn't. I stood up in front of everybody in a pink unitard and pink tutu and scout necker/boots/hat/socks etc.. Did the intro, called attention, emceed the awrds, gave out awards to leaders for their service, sang several songs with the scout and gave a great CM minute about being able to relax and laugh at yourself. Now...if you consider yourself brave and not easily scared: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/photo.php?fbid=211919738836317&set=o.172739770499&type=1&theater EDITED TO ADD: I somehow screwed up the link, so copy and paste the ENTIRE like to see what I am talking about.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Selling the popcorn at the price it is - is humiliating never mind what you are wearing! I don't know what to say. Really, I cannot imagine how volunteerin g to be in a dunk tank would be humiliating. I mean, especially since the dunkee usually is the one hecking the thrower and ragging the thrower about his wimp arm, not being able to hit the the ground if he tried, or tossing like a girl. And of course, dunking the smart mouth dunkee settles the score. I can see where the thrower could be humiliated if he threw worse and worse every time he tried or even got frustrated by not dunking the antagonizer...but while it's not major league pitching, it's not garanteed you will hit the arm, or hit it hard enough if you do hit it. The only thing I can imagine would be humiliating to the dunkee is if he had a less manly physique than the older boys. WHat is it called? A bird chest... I think. I used to be a bean pole and if I did not eat on a regular basis...my belly button could just might possibly scratch my backbone and I had an Adam'r apple that was very pronounced. Wasn't exactly my ideal situation to wlk around topless especially if you didn't have some sun coloring oin your body....but the thread makes it sould like it wasn' an issue with boys wearingf shirts or even full uniforms. WOW! Bet that was comfortable! But the thing is..it's voluntary, and you know from the start that you are gonna get wet soon or later - that's the whole point! I would not call it a humiliating event due to one person. They can always step down or not step up to start with. AS for hazing, I wouldn't even think to call it that unless it was a mandatory initiation thing or if only select people were forced to be the dunke while the rest laughed endlessly.

Cape Fear Council has 4 weeks of Boy scout camp, but the entire calendar if full of week long events all throug the year. half weke events and weekend event. They also run 3 weekds of resident for Cub Scouts, and 3 weeks of parent son. Then again, tere is a list of all kinds of event that run the wekend and mid week all year long. Then you have all the camporees and such that do not always take place on the scout reservation.

And really, it has nothing to do with the original post nor the point of wether it should be allowed or not...just a small side arguement on a technicallity.

Nah, I thought scooter was funny. I heard it in a Ron White voice. Thing is, I am not endorsing or advocating gay behavior, nor am I bashing or denouncing it. Truthfully, I do not care either way as it has never affected me personally. My sexual feelings are what they are because that is what they are. Knowing gay peole, bisexual people and a few asexual people has not changed how I feel about sex or sexuality. No more than a freind being a vegatarian or exclusively drinking V-8 juice will cause me to stop shoving wonderfull tasty meat and green tea down my face! I was only pointing out that is somebody was hiding a behavior ( wether gay or whatever) then in the fact they are hiding it, they are not modeling it. It can't be hidden and modeled at the same time. And I say hidden as since these people are acting as leaders or whatever..and everyone involved around them is not seeing anything to cause alarm...then they are not modeling any behavior other than what we are......which right now is scouting stuff like LNT, how to cook, make camp, buld campfires, hike, etc.... And I am also one of those guys who so far has not kissed my wife in front of the boys. We usually do that stuff at home. And at our den and pack meetings, as well as camping, we don't talk about any kind of sex wether hetero or homo. It makes me think of something my mom said to me a few days ago as I was helping her clean up fallen tree branches: "Watch out and don't step into any hidden holes!" ( This is where she has been piling up branches, leaves, sticks, yard waste , etc for years) My responce: "WEll, if they are hidden, there ain't much I can do about it as I can't see them!" And no matter how much I don't want to step in them, and no matter how much I might hate stepping in them..if they are hidden ...then I can't watch for them. So if the leaders are hiding their "gayness" then they are not modeling it. If they are not hiding it, you'd have already moved them from your unit.

" If the wife of a man followed after another man and he slept with her, they shall slay that woman, but that male shall be set free. Sucks " SUCKS! I am laughing so hard it hurts! That was funny...I don't care who you are! Maybe this is where I am different. I do not look towards our leaders - in this case a president or govenor - for moral leadership. I do not look to other people for family values either. Thing is..if I need somebody else to point them out, I probably don't understand what they mean or how to follow them. And while God's morals may never ever change, and while they may be the very standard of absolute perfection when ity comes to morals...the problem is, we got man's version of them. We have what man wrote down in the way he understood and interpreted it. Look at the bible, how many times has it been translated and rewritten? Well, you gues is good as mine since I have not seen the original and couldn't read the language anyways. Then look at the books of the Bible. They are what each of those people wrote down in their version of events. Don't even get started about politics! And yes , there are politics invovled. That's man's nature. And at one time, slavery and the owning of certain people was very moral. So what changed with that? PEOPLE! People discovering, realizing and becoming aware.

And what hasn't been said..althoug I think Beavah was trying to...is that alot depends on the victem too. Me persoannly, I would not have an issue with signing in front of everybody, nor would I have an issue with the snipe hunt. And I do realize that's just me. I do not expect it to be the same for everybody else. What works for one does not always work for the other. But I also know that the intentions behind the hunt or song are what I use to judge it. I learned a long time ago that words will only offend me if I choose to let them do so. Same for actions. But the person is different. What his intentions were is how I judge that person. IOf he screwed up while tryting to make something he thought I nwould get a laugh out of...I then go that way: I know he meant good but scrwed up. If his intentions were malicious, I push the event aside and realize that this guy is not my friend, but at that time, revoke his power to upset me or get under my skin.

packsaddle, while I wouldn't say this was a positive experience for that scout in any shape or way. and also realizing every person is different...I do see how a bad thing can be used as a positive thing: This can be a great learning experience in 2 ways: 1) The troop can learn that while things might look oaky from one viewpoint ( the ones running the snipe hunt) they also need to consider the rammifications and viewpoint of the victim scout. Maybe they need to stop ands review certain practices. procedures and whatnot and consider all viewpoints. 2)The victem could also learn that - while the event wasn't pleasant, and in fact it was a horrible experrience, that sometimes things don't always come out the way we intended. Sometimes we just screw things up and the outcome is not what we were planning for. I mean, it's two different things wether the boys meant to cause anguish or if they thought the vitim would laugh and feel part of the group. WE as humans sometimes cannot see outside or or take into consideration - anything beyond or different than our own viewpoint. The fact that it can be a big learning experience and create change in teh way the troop inducts or welcomes new scouts...as well as an awareness beyond ourselves...well, that is something positive. From the ashes of destruction......great cities are built. Am I saying the snipe hunt or singing were a good idea? Nope! Not at all. But it doesn't mesan something positive can't come from it. In this case, it is awareness and an education into what the reastion of the victim is.

Yeah, I know that won't work, but sometimes I can't control the smartass in me!