Scoutfish

I was only asking about it being a Tenderfoot requirement because you had said he just recently crossed into the troop.

Was this actually a personal fitness course or was it requirements 10a & 10b of the Tenderfoot rank? If it ws 10a and 10 b, it can be done in 4 weeks which is the meeting equivilent to 30 days - do the physical challenges, and then show improvement 30 days later. As far as: "Oh, we'll just award it to him. If he wants to, have him do those later and send me an email." .... I suppose it depends on if he showd alot of improvement in the other areas and it was obvious that he would be able to show improvement in the push ups and pull ups had it not been for the splint. Okay, not sure if they actually did all of what they were supposed to, but if they had, the time frame sounds like Tenderfoot requirements.

We went window shopping, but even so, we pretty much knew that the boys would go with our sister troop. They knew some of the leaders from previous years as DL's. They knew the younger patrols of scouts. Same CO. Meets the ssame night, etc..... And while I totally let my son make the decision, I do know parents wil have alot of input. If mom or dad has a cub scout and a boy scout, and both meet at the same co on the same night, then mom or dad will have alot of weight on the troop choice. At least our troop meets an hour after the pack does, so there is still freedom to choose a troop from a different Co is wanted to. A few of our Boy Scouts have come from other packs, and a few of our cub scouts have gone to other troops. Honestly though, I think it is because of school buddies. The scouts will pick a CO based on where their friends are. We have 5 packs and 4 troops withina a 6 or 7 mile space. There are 3 elementry schools , but only one middle school and one high school for this area - so you can have school friends in all the different troops .

Beavah, Nah, I don't see the world in just black and white. I am willing to bet I see it in more shades of gray than the average person does. But, shades of gray do start with black and end with white. Or vice versa. Take your pick. But here's the thing: When you are at a Cub SCout camp - especially a council or district camp ) you follow a greater set of rules. Family may decide they will have family time back at their tent by eating PB&J or maybe taking a hike around the camp with just their own company. But things like knives and guns are a different set of circumstances. The family does not override any G2SS or camp/district/council policies. Now, if the scout was using his pocket knife and carving on a stick ( only after having earned his whittling chip and having it on him) , that's one thing. But the activity described by the OP - which by the way wasn't off in a corner, but right in the middle of the camp - and G2SS even has a few things to say about that: " Archery and Knife and Tomahawk Throwing These are approved activities for Boy Scouts and Venturers following the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety" So right off the bad, G2SS tells you this is only approved for Boy Scouts and Ventureres But lets go a few steps further: "1. Qualified Supervision. Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care. The supervisor should be sufficiently trained, experienced, and skilled in the activity to be confident of his or her ability to lead and teach the necessary skills and to respond effectively in the event of an emergency. Field knowledge of all applicable BSA standards and a commitment to implement and follow BSA policy and procedures are essential parts of the supervisors qualifications. Safe Area or Course. A key part of the supervisors responsibility is to know the area or course for the activity and to determine that it is well-suited and free of hazards. 7. Safety Procedures and Policies. For most activities, common-sense procedures and standards can greatly reduce any risk. These should be known and appreciated by all participants, and the supervisor must assure compliance. 8. Skill Level Limits. Every activity has a minimum skill level, and the supervisor must identify and recognize this level and be sure that participants are not put at risk by attempting any activity beyond their abilities. A good example of skill levels in Scouting is the swim test, which defines conditions for safe swimming on the basis of individual ability. So, here we have an activity that isn't even sanctioned by BSA happening at a BSA event , and even if it was sanctioned, not done properly to suite the Sweet 16. So, here's my issue with the whole scenario: It's at a camp full of CUB Scouts. You should read that as a camp full of young immature boys who mentally realize that the fun factor of an activity completely outweighs every other factor including safety or wether they should be doing it at all. Again, I don't know how long it has been since you worked with cub scouts, but as many people ( including yourself) have pointed out - cub scouts are not mini boy scouts. Ages, size, and mentality are huge in seperating them. LIke I said, if you have one cub scout doing something he shouldn't be doing, in less than a blink of an eye, you could end up with 20 or 30 cub scouts doing teh same thing before you get it under control. I bet every CM or DL can remember a campout where roasting marshmellows eventually turned into a "lets see who can swing their smoldering ember ended stick the fastest to make cool smoke patterns" contest. And the kicker of it is, we told them a hundred times that the ends of sticks stay in the fire or the whole stick goes in the firer. We repeat it at least 10 right before they get their marshmellows. We repeat it constantly while they are roastuing( well, realistically, I'd say incinerating) their marshmellows. Then just like that, one scout is swinging his stick around. And as you are telling him to stop...5 more do it- even as they heard you tell the one scout to stop. When you tell them to stop swinging the stick, they will look you in th eye and say: But [ insert name here ] is doing it!" Now, the part where I mentioned rules and laws...well, that was preemptive. You usually do start talking about how people don't recognize the difference between a rule and a law and how they are confused. It's not confusion. I don't think you give enough people credit for undderstanding. I know the difference between a rule and a law. A diner may have a rule of no outside food, drinks or condiments. It's not a lwa by any means, but if you want to eat at this restaurant, you have to follw the rules. Just as BSA you have to have YPT, it's not a law, but it's a rule you have to follow if you are going to be in a ( direct contact ) leadership position. It's their rules. Folow them or don't be a part of the club. So, Tiger and younger sister throwing knives at camp. BAD! Againstr rules. Potential danger of harm or even chance of severe harm/death by far outweights whatever dad thinks about the activity. I'm not saying dad was being malicious or not caring about the other people at camp. I am pretty sure he had no idea that he couldn't do this. Bet he doesn't even see the harm in it. But that doesn't change the fact that you tell him to stop. Immediately. So, it wasn't a nerve struck, but like you say yourself: You have to weigh certain things. Knives, axes, BB guns, and fireworks are serious.

Well, you know your boys better than any of us could ever think to, but I also feel like it's too much. It is almost like a POR which Boy Scouts choose to go after . Our denner's duties basically consisted of collecting den dues and helping with the attendance roster. That was enough to make them feel important, feel proud and keep the other boys coming each month because they knew they would get a turn too. I do think you copuld adapt it to Webelos though. At that rank, it's not too much of a stretch. But I would make them sought out goals, not requirements for the position. I personally wouldn't have a training. You should be able to simplify things enough to just say: "This is what your 'duites' are." And I'd drop all the Boy Scout and patrol references, The cubs will zone out before reading that far. For Webelos, a slightly condensed version explaining patrol and Boy Scouts should be okay. Depending on how many boys are in your den,and a new denner each month, they will get ..what? ...3 meetings as a denner. I wouldn't hold a traing for that short a time in that position.

Time to start thinking Norman Rockwell.

Let me reitterate: A scout who does his best to wear his uniform right, and takes pride in his uniform is a noble thing; BSA saying that in order to correctly show your pride, you must wear a complete uniform - is a ploy to get scouts to spend more $$$$$ at the scoutshop.

Reminds me of something that was covered by 20/20 ( or similar news show) back when I was about 15 years old. They were taking on chainsaws. Seems a think tank group thought there ought to be legislation to outlaw homeowners from having chainsaws because they were so dangerous. But further inspection seperated the accidents into three groups of people: 1) Those new to chainsaws, 2) Those who had been using chainsaws for a fairly long time 3) Professional forresters and such. Well, in the group of people new to chainsaws, there were few accidents, but not too many as people were being very diligent and careful and following all safety precautions. The professionals also had a few accidents because they had years and years of experince with chainasaws and knew that no matter what, you always follow all safety precaustions - ALWAYS!. But the middle group....well, they had the highest rate of accidents because they had used chainsaws just long enough, and became just comfortable enough with them that they felt the knew everything and were okay to not follow every single precation. You know: "I'm good, I know what I am doing and I can handle it!" I have noticed this with guns too. Some of my friends get where they feel overly confident in their abilities and just know that all safe handling procedures do not really apply to them because they know what they are doing!

Two issues I have with the uniform: 1) Although I wouyld like a completely made in the USA uniform, I do not want to pay for a somebody who makes $75.00 an hour and gets 28 breaks aday and has to have another person change the thread on his sewing machine when it runs out becuase the union rules say so. Not when you could take that same $75.00 and hour and hire three people who would love to have that work and would actually put in an honest days work. 2) Yeah johnponz, WE get it. The guides say tat you cannot really be proud of being scout if you do not wear 100 % uniform. Yet, if I am wearing my hiking boots with my long pants, who can tell what branmd, type, or color sock I am wearing - if any? Maybe I am one of those people who needs compression socks, or I could be one of those people who's metabolism will cause my feet to be soaked after 3 minutes or wearing any sock? Sure, I do take pride in my uniform amd I do my bet to look neat and sharp, but that line from BSA about pride and loyal is a big ole crock. BSA is saying you needs to buy their uniforms so they can make more money off you. I am surprised they haven't come out with official footwear and underwear yet.

I have a question: When conducting OA elections at a troop, isnt there one or two OA members there to represent the OA lodge or chapter? What I am getting at is this: If somebody outside the troop comes to your unit and conducts an OA election, do they not leave with trhe voted for scout's names? I would think that the OA , their matters and what they do is outside of the ASM.s juristictionm, authority, or whatever you want to call it.

Laser tag? "You'll burn your eye out kid!"

I guess things are different in different places. Our DE goes to school during the day to get the boys psyched up. A week later, we have the sign up nights where the DE tells te parents how the program works ( yawn....). Then the DE lets reps from each of the 4 or 5 packs attending, speak. THis is where we sell what OUR pack does. What night we met on, why they may like us. Now, this is anot a "beat the other packs" contest. WE want people to choose the pack they like best, are more likely to go to and at their convienence. The idea is to get the boys in scouting. I usually help get the boys riled up by singing a few audience participation songs and doing something to make the boys get up, jump and run. Personally, I do not push the camping, selling popcorn or buying t-shirts and uniforms until the parents have had time to settle in and get used to going to scouts weekely. Don't want to scare them off before they even get started. Always remeber that it can be overwhelming to a new parent and scout. Good luck!

Going to a boy scout camp while a boy scout activity is happening is not adding to the requirements. It's just taking advantage of oppertunity. Saying that the requirement is not considered complete unless it happens during a boy scout event would be adding to the requirements. Just going to look around and explore meets the requirements. We were still planning on doing this when we happened to get invited by the troop - which was also about the time district mailed us flyers for the camporee too. Killed two birds with one stone. And the way I see it is like looking at a model home that is completely empty versus one that is decorated and furnished. In one instance, you can see what the house looks like, but in the other instance, you can visualize a home. And I can unerstand why momof2cubs district said what they did. They are thinking of the spirit of what is going on. They are thinking of camping with A troop. Not a bunch of troops at an event where the Boy scouts are reallly being no different than cub scouts would be at a parent/son weekend. Matter of fact, I see the distrcit is actually doing you a favor. How many people have ever checked something off, then later found out they were wrong, or that somebody really, really blurred the lines in order to check it off. I do the same thing myself as a CM, I will let my DL's and parents know when a certain activity can be applied to certain requirements of certain ranks, and when I know they can't. Why? So the boys are not shortchanged and also to prevent a "close enough" mentality from being born.

Beavah< Thank goodness you stepped in! We were about to form a lynch mob if you hadn't! Okay, let go over something you said: "First, let's straighten out the "rules". Knife throwing is not an "unauthorized activity", eh? Those are the things on the G2SS list like not shootin' each other with squirtguns. Knife throwing is just fine at the Boy Scout level, but G2SS advises that it's not an approved activity for Cub Scouting. " Okay, not approved is the same thing as unauthorized. If G2SS say you are not aaproved to do it, then it is basically banned, outlawed, against the rules, etc... Call it what you want. Toe may toe - tah mah toe. Still the same thing And here's the thing....if a CUB scout sees another CUB scout doing something that they think is really cool, pretty soon, you have a bunch of CUB scouts doing it. And when you have a bunch of scouts suddenly throwing sticks, kives, tent stakes or whatever else they can get ahold of..they don't just suddenly think to themselves : "Hey, this might be dangerous!" NOpe, it take a handfull of adults quite a bit of trime to get it to sink in. And just as soon as you say: "Hey, you cannot do that!" They will all chime in with : But " X " is doing it!" And just as soon as you turn you head, they try to get in "just one more throw" ...which most of the time becomes "just one more ..again". Now, I know you are itching to start that same little line you like about the rules not be laws and how we are all confused, buit you know what, we aren't confused. We know they are not laws, but they are rules, Rules you agreed to follow. And heres another thing: This dad might even be an certified super knive expert supreme class instructor. His son might be the same. But last time I checked, G2SS doesn't have that disclaimer star saying" * Rule does not aply to people who really do know what they are voing" Same reason a NRA certified / professional active duty Marine sniper/championship marksmanship contest winning person cannot just take even a bb gun and shoot it in the middle of camp. Rules are for everybody. This guy wasn't in a corner, it wasn't boy scouts, the Tiger isn't old enough ( per BSA ) to even earn a whittling chip. Thge issue at stake - besides other scouts deciding to take up this activity is that any other scout at the camp, could suddenly run up and get in the path of the knife. Or run up and decie to throw one he picked up from his own campsite and end up throwing dad's fillet knife at the Tiger scout or his sister. THis is not about moral indignation and outrage. This is about keeping the campsite safe for everybody and ensuring that everybody follow the rules. As far as Child protective services..yeah, I agree there. I wouldn't call them either. And like others have said. my son really hated the Red Ryder BB guns at the bb gun range. You can actually see the bb's as they travel from the barrel to the target. But that was the most powerful thing he was allowed to shoot. When we got home, we' usually get out his .22 rifle or his .410 and shot it some. But what we do at home is not bound by G2SS and there is also not a whole bunch of scouts running around our yard either. When in Rome, do like the Romans, but you better follow the Roman law.

Winter camping in Nc isn't so bad..depending on your location. Dcember and January are really not that bad. Especially this year! February we camped out and it was a high of 67 and we woke up the next morning and it was 27 degrees . WEll, it was 27 degrees by the time we got the DL's phone to take a charge. By that time, it was almost 7:30 am. So it was probably 25 degrees at 5:45 am. So, I have a 20 degree Coleman sleeping bag. Sleeping in a pair of compression pants and a tek shirt was enough to kep me completely toasty. My son slept in his 20 degree bag with regular pajamas and was fine too. Biggest thing you hate is having to get out of your tent to pee in the midle of the night when that cold! So, anyways, the Webelos den went camping and only 1 scout complained: A Webelos younger brother who slept in a " Bob the Bulder" sleeping bag ( which is about as much a sleeping bag as two layers of nylon with a papertowel sewn in between them) got cold. My 20 degree Coleman sleeping bag came from Wal-Mart for a $35.00 My tent is a 3 season tent, but with a $12.00 tarp/ rain fly, it can keep out wind and rain as good as any other high $$$$ tent. Anyways, my poinyt was this: You can camp in winter without spending alot of money to kep warm and dry. Winter in most places is not like Mt Everest. But summer? In the humidity capitol of the East Coast( NC ) ? Now that's a diferent story. YOu can dress warm when it is cold, but when it's hot, you can only take so much off before you violate YPT!

So it may be that the other leaders are not really against camping more often, but that they are just following the rules? And let me say: I think the 2 times a year cap is a load of crap[! But realistically, I do know that in alot of cases, if you can actually get a family to camp more than 2 times a year..you are 1 step away from walking on water! Alot of families are just topped out after camping twice as apack , then camping at least 2 more times at Parent/son and Resident camps. THis isn't even counting camporees or Tiger days, or other events. Then add in family vacations, weekend trips, holiday visits ( Tanksgiving and Christmas). How about school or rec league activities? Basketball? Soccer? Baseball? And even the non scout family members can affect things: Daughter at ballet or gymnastics? How about piano, cheerleading, or Softball? So here's the thing to do: Go camping outside of te pack. If you and a few other families go camping as just a bunch of families that happen to be friends..the council can do nothing about it. You may be a scouter 24/7, but a leader does clock in and clock out. Matter of fact, I am friends with afew of my leaders and parents. I was friends with them before my son or myself were involved with scouting. We;d go eat out together, go bowling, four wheeling sometimes, fishing, etc...... Camping is not a scouting exclusive event. Just do not make the camping around scout advancement. But...some stuff you dfo can count towards advancement such as if your Webelos age son prepares a meal or cleans up after the meal. Maybe he build a fire lay. Maybe your Bear age son gets in some practice time with a pocket knife under your supervision. Maybe the boys find things to add to their collection while they happen to be camping. These things can be counted towards their scouting, but are not limited to only happening while at an official scouting activity.

I would tell them they are conducting an unauthorized and (really stress) a very dangerous activity and that it must stop immediately! I would let them know that they can stop right now and we let it go or the CD and Ranger will be notified immediately. You don't have to scream at the parent or scoutrs, just let them know that they are wrong, explain why, and tell them firmly that "but we are carefull" doesn't apply. Rules are rules are rules for a very good reason even if he doesn't understand. Again, you don't have to be mean or a jerk about it, but you need to be firm. In this case, your leadership position( or lack of) means nothing. Knowing the rules, being aware of a dangerous situation, and doing absolutely nothing is pretty much akin to encouraging it. I have acted in a situation that was very similar ( parents and scouts from another unit throwing machete at trees not even 15 feet away from where scouts were running and playing. You do not have to be CD, DD, Ranger or even a CM/SM. THis is a danger to more than just the scouts participating! This is a danger to EVERYBODY! Worst thing that will happen is somebody gets mad. And honestly, I'm not so sure a parent who will allow children that little would be a great resource in scouting. Would that same judgement pop up again when teaching older boys how to handle knives? "Well these boys are older, more experienced and and just having a bit of fun. What's the harm? "

Council camp is just about 2 hours away from my house. I drive a 1995 Ford f-150 It does not get 50 mph. Not even close. Not even half that! So that means I will cut back on "frivilous" things like Pow-wows, and supplimental trainings . I like to take them each year just to learn new things since last time, but..... I will also cut back on going to Cub Scout camp oppertunities held by the council when my leadership isn't absolutely nevcessary. For instance: I do not have to be there when the council holds Parent/son weekend, but I like to go to all the sessions my cub scouts go to. Same for resident camps. Since my son is no longer a cub scout, I really don't have a compelling reason to go. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

So I am thinking that you go ahead and impliment this with your patrol. Don't worry about the others. In a year, your husband can say: "Okay, look at the "X" patrol and look at what they have done, how well they did and what they can do." It will be easier to have the other boys look at what your patrol has done and get on board with it, and then pushing the rest of the adults to do it , than just trying to explain to all the parents about what it could be like. And if the other leaders don't want to do it, why should it affect youyr patrol. Start doing this with all the new patrols from now on. Your SM husband can tell all the other leaders to back off on any patrol that is not already theirs. And by "yours" and "Theirs" I mean the patrols they work with, not that they are in them.

From the spun thread, I mentioned a campout that my Webelos den went on where they were the guests of our sister troop and went to a Camporee. Okay, technically, we couyld ahve went as a Webelos den only, since it was open to Webelos scouts, but going with the troop made it better. The Webelos were integrated in as a guest patrol and even had a troop guide and PL ( for this event). So, the Webelos were assigned duties, given tasks to do and treated as a part of the troop and not just as cub scouts. They cooked, they did dishes, they halped clean up the campsite. This camporee was an event put on by two districts, but open to all in the council. The theme was Pioneering Days Lots of lashings, ropes, old time contraptions. This event just might possibly be the single coolest recruiting event for the troops that I have ever seen. Far better than Scout show put on each year, and more impressive than recruiting drives. You didn't come listen to or watch the troops do stuff. At the camporee, you WERE a part of the troop! So what have you done or seen?

Not being related to either lois or Clark, and not being a frontersman myself....All I can say is thia: Same program, just not as detailed. Think baseball. For the youngest guys, we have T-ball, as they get older, coach pitch. older and they pitch themselves. Show them a simple trap or snare. Show them how to make a cane pole from scratch. Build a fish trap . Make a wild fowl trap. How about showing them how to buld a fire lay and cook something on a spit? Could be a chicken that you already boiled beforehand ( to make it easier for you) or even hot dogs. You could do a demo on skoking some meat too. Show from strat to finish what a fronteersman did to put food in his belly. Thing here to remembers - don't dumb anything down because they are younger, just use more common layman's words to explain what you are doing. Mention about how everything had to be shot or trapped - no grocery stores to keep it interesting. Don't forget to throw in a fronteersman era game to keep their interest up too. Horeshoes? Good luck

I'd take it to mean exactly what it says: visit the camp, not a campout. Of course with our Webelos, it just happened to work out that our camp visit was during a Boy Scout Camporee that the Webeos were invited to attend as guests of out troop. They intergrated the boys into a "guest patrol" and assigned a troop guide and a PL to them. Technically, just visit the camp. But if you can work something else into it...that would be awesome!

Uaully with such things as this: We fill out the forms, but also input it in scoutnet advancement too. WE take our forms to the scoutoffice and hand them to our registrar. Then walk over to the scoutshop and pick up the patch, badge or whatevber it is the award entails. Mind you, some awards do not need paperwork or forms. Some are just part of doing a certain number of requirements and electives in a period of time or order. THose are not necessarily advancement awards, but just awards to recognize.

Don't forget looking in your cub scout leader handbook!

I don't think you will find an entire list of available awards. Maybe you might find an order form that the scout shop uses for a complete list, but it would be lacking the requirements and who can earn the award. Best you can do is print out your own little combined booklet from the various sources. boyscouttrail.com has a page that will direct you to awards from Tiger scouts all the way through Eagle. They also have Venturers and adult knots and awards listed too: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/awards.asp Giude to placement of the knots and what the knots look like: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/square-knots.asp BSA.org has this page : http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards.aspx US Scouting Service Project has this to offer: http://usscouts.org/cubscouts/csabcs.asp