Scoutfish

I think it's great that they are doing it! We have 3 schools within a 5 mile ( or so ) stretch. We have 3 different packs within a 1/2 mile drive, and two more that are 1 1/2 miles away and 7 miles away from our pack. All the boys attend the same 3 schools. These 3 schools serve my side of the county which is fairly rural in nature. So here's why it is great! Because the parents and boys can choose which pack they like. They can choose the one that fits their own personality the best. Each of our 5 packs meet on a different night . That was actually just random and not planned that way, but still, it is also a deciding factor to the parents. So, here's some of what parents and scouts can look at to help them decide IF they want to join, and WHICH pack they will join: Distance to pack. Night the pack meets for den and pack meetings. Personality of the pack - determined by members and participants attitudes and personalities Which pack their friends/schoolmates go to. What the pack does It's community image Camping trips - how far, how long, how many I do a couple Roundup for or DE when he is over scheduled. One of the things parents ask me at roundup is : What if I join your pack , but decide I should go to a different one?" And I tell them to sign up, pay the fees, and come to a meeting, if they are not sure they like us, go to a different packs meeting and see if they like it better. If they do, pay a dollar and transfer. The point to remember here is that it's not my pack against their pack. Matter of fact, it's not about me at all. It's about the boys and delivering a great program. The point is to get them in scouting wether it's at my pack, your pack or somebody else's pack I'd rather lose a boy to another pack and he keeps scouting,than have him just not like scouting and quit. Competition is what weeds out the deadwood, keeps leaders on their toes and keeps the program fresh for the scouts. Now, just a friendly piece of advice: Public image can make or break you. A bad reputation is hard to get rid of. Too much "this is our turf and these student belong to us".....and you might end up losing a bunch of future prospects as well as a bunch of who you have now. These are community members, not a personal supply. Sounds like too much ego and bullying and not enough scout like behavior.

" when many of our highly dedicated Scouting families who are non-Christian will see no benefit." How so? If they are in the scouting family, then the can and will get that benefit from being in scouting. " I bet there are many non-Christian Scouters who want a similar program for the daughters to join so that they get a great Scouting experience just like the sons." I absolutely agree - there are many families that may want a program like that. Then all the have to do is do the same thing the people who created and founded AHg did: Make up a program that they like. It's not BSA's responcibility to make sure another group opens their doors or develops something to suit everybody everywhere. Even BSA does not do that. Suppose I start up a youth model rocket building and launching club. We meet at the local school playground every Saturday. Maybe the parents of model ship building children ask the school to make sure that I start building and sailing model ships so they can have a program for their kids too. Then the RC car crowd wants in. Then the train club. Should the school tell me that I ought to change my program to an all inclusive fun club? Why should I? Why should I sudden;ly be responcible to placate and please every group of parents who want something for their kids? It's not about scorning or denying others the ability to do something. It's about those with a common interest ( model rockets) getting toghether iover a common interest. Remeber, just because BSA is making a somewhat partnership with AHG does not mean trhey are snubbing a nose at all other groups. BSA did not create AHG. But they recognize the value behind it, and recognize the similarities in some of the stuff.

Still, the biggest thing you have to remember is this: No matter what the officvial guidelines say, what the official statement is, or what it's supposed to be about......it still all comes down to the leaders and their attitude and outlook. A group of racist folks could get together one day and start a cub scout pack or troop. Swaet that they will abide by all BSA rules and regulations, and still have a racist and prejudiced unit. They may be very exclucionary to anybody who does not fit their ideal profile. They may deny it, but would still do it. Same for any other type of personality a unit has> An Eagle Mill troop acts and says the same thing as a non mill troop whn it coms to paperwork. You may have a non camping pack, but they look just like a 7 times a year pack when it comes to signing the paperwork and crossing t's and dotting eyes. "Cub Scout Pack 235" dos not tell you if the pack is a strict religous pack or a carefree pack. It does not tell you if the adults are cool casual people or about to pop a vein in their temple if something goes slightly wrong. So, the AHG unit is only as good or bad as the leaders. Not every leader will explicitly and completely follow, agree to or abide by every single rule, sub rule, etc of every rule. All you have top do is look at any 20 troops, pack, crews, etc.... If nothing else, look at your ownm unit. Is it just exactly like the next unit you pass? Really? What's different and why? Which unit is doing it wrong...your's or the other one? See what I am saying? The AHG unit that sets up in my town may not be exactly like the one in your twon. The adults may not act lie or feel exactly like yours do. No matter what the paperwork says, every single unit is unique in it's own way. So, I am just saying, if the AHG unit you saw/went to suck..it doesn't mean all of them do. If your unit was awesome, it doesn';t mean all the rfest are. A unit peronality and attitude can only be defined by the attitude and personality of it's leaders and CO.

Scout's mom, or girlfriend asks: "Does this dress/outfit/pants make my butt look big/fat/ugly? Truth could be any varyation of yes or that the hair isn't a style the scout likes. Maybe the shirt is a color or cut that the scout does not like. Being truthful will only get the scout in trouble! When we were first mnarried, my wife started trying to make new dishes. Soime were great right away, so not so much. When she asked me, they wre alwys - at the very minimum - good. I never told her that it was all I could do to swallow some of them by washing them down. So, I was being loyal , friendly, courteous and especially kind. I was not being trustworthy as defined in the scout handbook in the sense that scout tells the truth and is honest. But we know that all rules have an exception to them. All rules have a certian time and place wheer being entirely truthful and honest does not reflect on the virtues that being honest and truthful reflect. My lying served a greater and more nobel purpose than being truthful. So my answer to your question: Even though the scout law defines trustworthy as being honest and telling the truth....a scvout should learn when to avoid the down side of telling the truth or when telling the truth goes against being kind, friendly, couteous, etc....

" Are you even going to attempt to keep to the facts of the case? " You mean a news story that has both sides claiming the other was at fault? Where are "the facts" in that? I don't know exactly what happened, but I do have some questions: 1) If Zimmerman wasn' t arested, wy was he handcuffed and taken to the police station by the police? 2) In the video of he being taken to and at the police station, he doesn't appear to have any of the injuries he claims he recieved. What happened to them? 3) If he was a community watch member and patroling like he always does..why did he need to look at a stree sign to see where he was? Didn't he just report that to the dispatchers? 4) Speaking of dispatchers, the one he was talking to told him not to follow, yet he did anyways. What was up with that? What was he planning on doing? 5) He is following the guy who looks so suspicious, and loses him? Really? Your watching somebody and they just suddenly dissapear? Can't be seen anywhere, but as soon as you turn around, they magically turn up right behind you? 6) Id Zimmerman is a community watch prson, and has been doing this awhile..wouldn't you think he would know what to do? Shouldn't he know that you call the dispatch, tell them what you have seen , and that's the end of it. You do not act like a LEO, you do not pursue, you do not keep going. You did your job. Zimmerman has been doing this long enough to have either been told before not to follow or dp anything beyound reporting stuff. Why did he feel the need to act like a cop? Now, lets also be realistic here. Anybody who is minding there own buisness starts being followed bu somebody...they will feel like they are being stalked. Especially if somebody is driving by, then parks and starts following you? So if you feel this, wouldn't you stand your ground too? And lets don't forget..We can't ask Martin any questions. Zimmerman took care of that.

Yeah, they should know it already since all of it was a condition of AOL. And for the record, I do not think "Do your best" applies in this case even if AoL is a Cub Scout award. It is an award for being ready and prepared for Boy Scouts. It's a tool for early crossover after you show you know the stuff...not did your best in trying to know your stuff. Don't get me wrong, doing your best is a fine idea, but since doing your best is not a Boy Scout arrangement, then it shouldn't apply to what amounts to an Early pass. So anyways, I know what the joining requirements are, but thanks anyways. And yeah, they should have all know it already. But a few of the boys were from another pack and I have no control over that their DL may not have done a better job. But it is just as likely that this boy could have been nervous since he was dealing with an entirely new adult. He may not have been as comfortanle as he was with his former DL. Maybe he was coddled through AoL? I really don't know. As for the paperwork, I assume it has been turned in right after or even before the AoL ceremony. Mine and my sons was as wel as troop dues. Maybe it was turned in 5 minute before our review? Anyways , the scout was having a littt;e bit of trouble with the parts of the scout badge. Not just missing one part or screing up a name of a part, but pretty much wasn't sure about 3/4ths of the badge. I also noticed the family pamplet was still in the handbook. That in itself means nothing, so I asked him if he and his family went over it and talked about what was in it...even a little bit. He said no. They didn't look at it at all. So, 5 out of 6 boys were checked off and will get their badge next week. I did inform this scout that he could catch me a few minutes before colors for a SM conference, but they will not be here next meeting ( spring break...going out of town).

It's very simple: You are now legally an adult no matter how fun and scoutish you are. I wouldn't hold it against BSA either. It's not like they can push the legal age aside or forward or back just because you are in a program they run. What it comes down to is this: Society has become too "I'm gonna sue you! " happy! Doesn't matter what BSA thinks, you think, the scouts in your unit or even what all the other older leaders thing., Get one jerk of a parent with a hair up their butt and they will cause problems. It happens all te time. Remember, we are a society where convicted female sexual predator/murderers will sue for their constitutional right to watch porn while in prison. And lwayers with dollar signs instead of real pupils will line up to take those cases too. Pain in the butt? ( No pun insinuated) yeah, sure is. But that's the world we live in today! 20 minutes of a dull video with music worse than those high school science films used to have...and you are all set. Matter of fact, order a delivery pizza and you can kill the time that you are waiting by taking YPT.

Now, you may have noticed that I said I hunt with a fishing pole. Yep! That's because I do not hunt witrh a gun. Never have, probably won't in the future either. But I like to shoot rifles. I like to shoot at targets and test my skill and ability. My targets are either paper targets or cans . Old skunky beer is awesome because you can shake it up and have a great show when you hit your target! I shoot at plain old bull's eyes and I shoot at the ones with the neon indicators too. I have shot animal silhouettes, bland basic human silhouettes, and the detailed evil bad guy middle American guerilla targets. But I have not actually shot a human yet. Or any deer or cows, or horses, or bald eagles, puppies, kittens, or baby seals. I don't plan to either. I just like shooting at targets to test my skill. And when you hit a bottle cap at 100 yards....well..it feels awesome! Trust me - I know!

"what does *any* of your rant have to do with the topic of destroying a living entity for fun? " What does your comment of " destroying a linving entity for fun " have to do with thisd thread? Nobody....and I mean nobody said anything about killing a living creature for fun . At least not until you said it, that is. What is the benifit and reward of anything we do? Why build a ship in a bottle? What practical use is it? Cause you feel a sense of accomplishment and learned to be patient, to work in a microcosn, and overcome a challenge. Why build any model for that matter? Same as above except not quite so challenging. Why play golf? What is the benefit? You can swing a stick around and walk a couple miles while taking a brweak to swing a stick in your own backyard right? Because you develop a skill and hopefully get better at it and again feel some gratitude and self satisfaction. So, since I brought up the sniper idea originally, I'll tell you what tomne it was said in, what manner it was meant in, and what the intended idea behind it was: It's simple: anybody can point a gun at the ground and shoot the ground. But shooting a target that is 30 fot away is a bit harder. Shooting one that is 70 foot away is still even harder. Now put that target 150 foot away. Now 300 foot away. not 600 foot. Then 900 foot. Think you can just point the gun and shoot the target and hit it? Do you just point, pull the trigger and celebrate hitting the target? What about distance? How does that affect your aim. How about bullet travel? What if it's windy outside versus dead calm? What is the difference between a 2 mph breeze versus a 15 mph breeze over a long distance? Now, you think you just yank the trigger back? How about how your stance is or how you hold the gun? Did you know breathing ( or lack of) make a huge difference ? And last time I checked....a bottle cap or golf ball WAS NOT a living entity. But as for the youth who do happen to hunt( I hunt with a fishing pole) this could help with an instant kill versus having an animal run off hurt and wounded and showly dying an agonizing death.

Nah, it was just a joke. The "coffee club patrol".

Not being there, it's hard to say. Not being familiar with an LDS program makes it worse. So, to find a soulution, you first have to understand the problem. In my un educated guess to an issue I have not personally seen in a unit who workd uner a program I do not fully understand.... I'd say that first and foremost, your biggest problem is that the parenmts have not taught these boys any manners, respect or control. Yeah, all boys act up and get hyper every now and then. And mob mentality does happen top young boys too.That's normal and to be expected. But the first thing you should do is talk to these parents about these boy's behavior and attitude. Since this is an expected program, and parents are expected to have their kids attend, I'd figure that they would be more prone to establishing respectful behavior in their childreen. Now on your part, this is the time to tell the boys that while they can still have fun, you are still in charge. You make the decidions. Then maybe a short lecture on good attitudesm respect, courtesy, etc... Again, not sure exactly how LDS does it, but in regular program, the unit will not let one scout ruin it forn everybody elsle. Againm every kid acts up sometimes. No big deal,But if a few are causing that many issues,for the rest of the scouts, we will send them on their way.

Seattle... Correct me if I am not understanding you when I say this in a way that might make more sense: Are you suggestiong the CO create a "tag along" program for younger siblins and /or sisters? That makes perfect sense. But saying the pack itself do it is probably asking for either failure or other problems as I do not think the pack has the ability, authority, or power to create a program. The pack is only charged with running a BSA program . The closest a pack could come to haing s tag along den would be during family pack camping. So, maybe your CO starts upm a tag along program for the sisters of the scouts who ate at den and pack meetings. Maybe some of the pack leaders or parents of the scouts take on a leadership position in the new tag along. Wouldn't be any different than me being dual registered in the troop and pack. One does not have any say or control over the other. One does not create or start up the other.They are two entirely seperate entities. And this is with both being in the same CO and both being creations of BSA. Sounds like a great idea. Parents don't have to juggle kids or worry about one being miserable while the other is having fun. As far as wether it is AHG, GSUSA or whatever the CO wants to call it doesn't matter to me. Just because my son was a member of the pack doen't mean I support/ stand against any other youth program the CO has. All it means is my son is a cub scout. I reckon it to be just like going grocery shopping. I have friends who are (way overboard) zealous against smoking. I also know some who will not touch a drop of alcohol due to religious beiliefs. The still shop at the local Food Lion grocery store even though it sells cigarettes and beer and wine. I guess just because the store sells it doesn't mean the store thinks I should partake in it. It's just a matter of offering what people want. It's a good buisnes practice. So if my CO started up a AHG unit, I'ds still keep my boy in scouting if I was against the AHG program because the AHG will not affect the purpose and reason my son was in scouts in the first place.

Actually, I did. I went over it with all the boys at one time, then my son did the review with the other ASM who asked me about waiting on the patches or not. Not making that part clear is my bad. I tend to forget that you guys weren't there to see stuff like that. I do not plan on signing off on anything of my son's unless I have to. The only exception I can think of.....as of right now.....will be the first aid merit badge when the time comes as I am the only registered first aid MBC in my district...which honestly, is really surprising and disappointing to me. But I am in the talks with a certified first aid/CPR instructor about training all of our leadership like I did with the pack. The troop committee thought that was a great idea when I told them we did that at the pack. So I'm thinking after that, we should be able to get at least 1 more leader signed up as a MBC, if not a couple.

So would this make you cahnge your mind about adult leaders wearing patrrol pathes in a troop? http://insanescouter.org/Assets/Coffee%20Cup%20Patrol%20ClassB.jpg

My opinion, for what it's worth...at least $0.08...or less, if the money is used for scouting or scout related events, then it's okay. That's how our pack does it. But we do not cash out anything. WE will pick up what the scout wants or pay for it for him. Examples rank book, uniform parts, council/district camps and events. Camporees , den go see its and other den activitys. Pack t shirts, pack camping or den camping events ( for Webelos scouts) . If a scout does not have a sleeping bag or tent, we can purchase one for him . I know that some people consider that crossing trhe line with the arguement taht: "A scout couldm sell the tent for money" Well, they are right, he could. But that same scout can also quit scouts the day after his uniform or scout book is given to him, and he could sell that too for the money. "He might use his tent for personal use outside of the pack." Yeah, and he might wear his uniform pants or shirt outside of the pack too. He might sell/trade one of his patches, beltloops, or anything else scout related to one of his non scout school mates or neighborhood friends too. Point is, we do not give the scout cash to go to Wal-Mart to buy video games, matchbox cars or anything like that. WE do not cash out or give them cash. It must be used for scouting or scouting related items and events/ supplies. Edited because I forgot to mention the OP question: Yeah, I'd not feel right about that summer camp if it's not directly related to scouting wether your council's or district's camp or another council's or district's camp. Summer camp. You could also just as easily say band camp, disney camp,space camp equestrian camp, lego camp, Van Camp's pork and beans ( sorry, couldn't help it! ) So, in my opinion, that would not be an acceptable use of the money.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Wait. Am I missing something? I never said, not did I indicate or plan on treating a patrol like a den. I didn't try to use my experience in the pack to justify acting like a den in the troop. I didn't even bring up the initial cub scout references. My question was about camradieri in a brand new patrol who just got signed of on the scout badge at Monday's meeting. This was actually after the troop meeting, so there wouldn't even have been an opportunity to recognize them without the patch. I also indicated that my plan was to go ahead and give them to the boys who met the requirements UNLESS somebody else gave me a reason NOT to. I do not have an issue understanding the difference between boy scouts and cub scouts. But as a new (full time) ASM ( I have worked with/ camped with the troop many times) I just asked for some advice on the scout rank. It's not like I was asking anybody to justify always having all the boys advance at the same rate and time. It was something I was asked by another ( more experienced ) ASM in our troop. Until that point, I hadn't even entertained the idea in any shape, way or form. Now, when I did reference Cub scouts in my second reply, I was only stating that - unlike what other packs may have done - my pack did not purposely maintain a set timetable on advancemenmt , nor did we intentionally and purposely group advance scouts. Our cub scouts got recognition and patches/badges as they earned them. But, one of the reasons that it could appear that some cub scouts ( from any unit) all advance at the same time is that it's done in the den and unless you miss a night or are just having a really hard time..they all usually reach the same advancement at the same time , and not because it was intended taht way by the DL. But again, I was not originbally talking about Cub scouts, nor did I even bring it up. So.......I just want to clear that up before the thread gets sidetracked and ends talking about why Cub scouts should not be given concealed weapon permits while attending a girl scout high adventure paramilitary camp.

Beyond Tigers, we also do not require parents to stay, but I told parents that you must be there the first and last 5 minutes of the meeting time. I did this because some parents would pull up in the parking lot, let the kids out and leave. This would cause a den to sometimes not be able to take advantage of a special event that just came up, or sometimes, our DL's couldn't let parents know about last minute or unexpected changes due to extenuating circumstances. Sometimes a scout forgets to tell mom and dad they are doing a presentation or needs to bring a few dollars for X activity. It also stopped alot of the "Nobody told me" problems too.

Gunny, I'm glad you could see where I was going as far as the ideal behind it and not the way the thread started to make it sound like a negative thing. The tone of the responces started to sound like I suggested teaching boys how to take another man down. That was not the point or idea in my suggestion. I just wanted everybody to realize that sniper is not another way of saying shooting people or murder.

Thanks for the replies. I was planning on having the SM hand out the badges to those who have earned it unless any of you gave me a good argument otherwise. The only reason I considered waiting was because I was thinking of patrol camradieri. Even at the den level, we awarded anything earned based on the individual and not as a group..but usually in cubs, the whole den works on something at the same time, so unless you miss a night or really just don't get it - all the cubs (mostly) earned things at the same time. Matter of fact, the SM called me earlier today and I let him know to go ahead and plan on awarding them at the next meeting to the 5 who did earn them already.

Okay, I have another question. Tonight, I signed off on 5 out of 6 boys ( in our newest patrol) as earning their scout badge. The one who didn't earn it yet just needs his family to do the family phamplet and he needs to study just a tad more on the parts of the scout badge. He should easily be able to do it next Monday night, but will be out of town on a family trip ( our school spring break). So I went ahead and asked our advancement chair to pick up 6 badges anyways. A little while later, the Sm asks me if I want to go ahead and award the badges to te boys who earned them next meeting , or wait until we can give the whole patrol their badges at one time. So here's my arguement for both side: As a patrol, they should stick together and work together. If one is having trouble, the others should help him out. But it would be at a minimum - 2 weeks , longer if he doesn't study up in that time. But the other side is that: why should you hold back on awarding what was earned just because another hasn't reached that point yet. Kinda like the boss not giving a raise or promotion until everybody in the office meets certain standards. So right now - unless somebody can give me a good reason otherwise - I am going to tell the SM to go ahead and award the scout badge to those who have been signed off. They can still encourage the other boy and help him out. But they also get to wear the badge that they earned. edited to add: I do not think this is something the SM or troop does on a regular basis. I think he only asked since this patrol is brand new and this is the first week of being in the troop.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Well, let me rephrase my "sniping" comment a little bit, By sniper, I do not mean assasin. I mean expert long range shooter. And it's not just about shooting for a kill , but also about a more serious level of control and skill. It gets down to controling your breathing, but doing it so naturally that you don't have to think about it. It's not just pointing a gun at something far away. It's about considering and counting on elevation drop, windage, and where to aim . You don't hold your breath when you shoot, you exhale and relax before squeezing a trigger. Never pull the trigger , squeeze it. And if you can learn discipline and control to where you can hit a bottle cap or golf ball from 100 yards, then when you do shoot a deer, you will take him down instead of watching him run and possibly not get him. You won't have a deer that runs away and bl;eeds out where he can't be found. Instead, you drop him where he stands.

"Yah, I think this is the principle source of our national neuroses, eh? Most people think that because something is prevalent on the news that it's prevalent in real life. " Not talking National news or something happening in another country. I am talking local news. Used to be a time that gang activity was something that only happened in LA or New Yopk. Now it happens all around us. When I say Us, I mean my county and city. And it is not racist to know that there are neigborhoods that- if you are not the same race/color/ ethnic group - it is in your best interest to stay out of those neighborhoods even in the middle of the day. Doesn't matter what color or race you are. There ar a great many people in my are who do not care what color you are, what religion you are, or where you are from. But you'd be naive to think that just because you are not racist, that others are not. Just because most do not pay attention does not mean all do not. Otherwise, this conversation wouldn't ever take place at all. Their mindset is not based on yours. I too have a great many NASCAR fans who would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. But I have also witnessed personally, people who attack others just for their choice in driver. And I do not just mean verbally. I am talking about one person simply attcking another for the color and number on their shirt. Blood and cuts and LEO being called. I also used to be friends with quite a few people until I found out they were racist or bigoted or worse. I do not like people who hate based on race or that think women are inferior just because they are women. I do not condone hatred against anybody just because they are different. But there are certain neighborhood that I will not go into , and there are neighborhoods that others shouild not go into. Why? Because it's not the nice and polite people who will hurt you, It's the hateful ones who will. It's not the majority who might accept and get along with everybody, it's the ones who do not. It's because of plain old stupid arrogance and ignorance. But that's what happened to Trayvon isn't it? At least everything I have read about him so far. He got shot because he was suspicious. Since when did walking make you suspicious? I'll bet you walking wasn't it. I bet it was skin color. And regardless of skin color, religious beliefs or ethnic background, if you follow somebody, then shoot them becaus e"something wasn't just right" instead of a real crime and acting in self defense....it's murder as far as I am concerned. If Mr neighborhood watch thought something suspicious was going on, why didn't he cal the real police and let them do theiur job? Cause he was racist and actd out of stupidity and arrogance. Now, you tell Trayvon that it wasn't prevalent in real life. But againm..me? I do not judge bases on color, race, sexual orientation or religious belief. I judge based on personal interaction.

Well, I don't have an issue with AHg either way, and I'll tell you 2 reasons why: 1) I don't have a daughter, so it's a non issue as that is concerned. 2) Even if my CO charters a AHG unit, it's not like they are going to come to my pack or troop and say: "Hand over your scout handbooks and leaders books because we are re-writting the entire program. My CO has several units there: Pack, troop. crew, GS troop ( and yes, I know they are independant of the CO, but the CO allows them to use facilities and supports them - okay), and a youth group as well as church league soccer and basketball ( upward) Peole take part in different ones for different reasons. And each one has it's own unique flavor and personality. Another thing to think of is something every one of you is familair with, has commented opn, and probably even has experience with: Each unit is it's own unit and not a clone of the next. Think about it: troop 123 might be true boy led. Troop 456 might be adult lead . Troop 321 might be a no camping troop that just sits at tables earning MB's and thinking of Eagle by age 13 while troop 654 might go camping 3 times a month and not really concern themselves with advancement or ever getting Eagle at all. Pack 135 has parents who bring coolers of beer and eats ribeyes at every meal while pack camping and Pack 246 doesn't allow women to go camping with the pack and they only eat what they catch in primitive bamboo traps and snares. Okay, each example is a bit exaggerated and extream, but you get where I am coming from? Just because the one AHG unit you saw places emphasis on a particular thought, view or belief, does not mean all the rest do. And just because rthe head office declares that their reason for being is "X" does not mean every unit will enforce or push the same ideals or policies...just like every troop or pack does not follow or push BSA's ideal as they should. Even churches of teh same denomination do not do everything exactly the same. Look at the Episcopal Church. They just about had a civil war amongst themselves over gay bishiops and preachers. All were of teh same faith and denomination, but each church's collective opinion was based more on local, region and the people who make up that unit. My pack is not like the pack down the street. I have worked hard to make our pack a fun place for boys who are learning to be responcible and good citizens without having to sit and be lectured all the time. We do fun stuff and we plan our program to blend what boys like and find exciting with what is in the handbooks. We also have absorbed amost all of neighboring packs Bear and Wolf scouts because the boys would rather eat dirt than go to their meetings which are almost an identicle extension of school. They just sit and listen to a DL read out of a book and lecture. So again, even though we are both units that are chartered to deliver a program that was designed and set up by BSA , and where all we have to do is go by a "script"....we are still two entirely differt units doing two entirely different things. before they joined our pack, I bet you trhose parents thought every pack was like the one they went to. So, my point is this: Just becausd AHG unit 123 does "this and pushed "that"...does not mean all of them are identicle. And no matter what their head office says they purpose is, the real purpose and agenda of each unit is decided by the Leaders if not the CO.

Basement, what you describe is not only racist, but flat our arrogant and ignorant. Yeah, I'd have laid into my boys if they had said that. I'd probably bore them, but give them a lesson on American History and explain about who came from where too. But now, if those boys in your group were going to have to travel through the neighborhood that those jerks lived in - for whatever reason - late at night, would you call them racist for being scared or imagining what could happen to them by the others? Nah, I'd call that being realistic. Again, it's a shame it happens, but it is a reality. Now, assuming that all people of a certain race or culture would do something to you just because they are different - AND not because of any previous experience that encroaches on or flat out dives into racism - well, that would be different. Then that would be racist too. Saying your scouts needed vocational training is racist and stereotypical. Saying a black kid should avoid a neighborhood full of rebel flag waving, NASCAr watching, Obama bashing white people in 4X4 trucks at 1 am in the morning is just common sense. And I say thi sas a NASCAR fan who has deleted more than my fair share of fomer NASCAR friends from my friends list on facebook because of their bigoted, racist, and chauvanistic views. If somebvody hates Obama for his policies and such..I'm cool with that. If they hate him because he is black..that saddens me.

Well, I'd guess that I confused it. So, as I said, they boys know how to tie it. It's just that some requirements are specific in detail, so I wanted to make sure that this wasn't the case with right or left when tying. Boomer brought up a great point about right handed versus left handed people. What I want to do is show them how to tie a bowline knot single handed ...afer I learn to do it myself!