Scoutfish

You said it LisaBob! Funny thing is, at our meetings, we tend to spend our time talking about building wood projects, camping, hiking, respecting war veterans, respecting the flag, being good scouts, and all kinds of stuff. Something we don't talk about is sex, sexuality, religion, God or Satan, Ghandi, Buddah, Shiva, Oden, Crom or any other. We do end pack meetings with a non denominational , non sectarian - watered down prayer, but participation is completely optional.

Eagledad/ Barry ( not sure of your preference< NO! I did not say that due to changing immorality, that being homosexual was ok. But I'm not saying it isn't ok. What I AM saying is this: The God you chose to follow ( meaning there are many different gods in many different cultures) may have laid out a set of defined rules. But man wrote them down his own way. I consider myself a Christian, but you don't have to look long in the bible to see many contradictions. Did I say God contradicted himself? NOPE! But humans have when they wrote it down. Then take the translation: Armeic to grek to english. Then you have modern and "hip" translations. Well... did you know that in spanish, "ch" is it's ownseperate letter that is different from just a plain "c" or "h". Some words don't translate at all. Now, when I mentioned good old King Henry, I was talking about people who used religion as the backbone of their "royal power" . But then you had their Bishops who were more interested in their own power than te word of God. They went along with the kings in any way that kept their own power going...this means they changed this rule, added God's "ok" to this rule and that rule. And let me ask you this: Have you ever read any particular passage in the bible, and get a particular meaning from it... only to read that same passage years later and find out it means something else to you now? Why? Is it because as you got older or experienced luife more, you may realize you didn't treally understand it the first time? AS other have pointed out, You can't expect others to follow your specific beliefs. Not unless you expect to follow theirs too. As for moral ..that again depends on who is using what morals. Too many "christains" burned, killed and drowned too many other groups in the name of God,. The same God who said to do unto others as you would have done upon yourself. Remember Salem? Lot's of innocent people died because they were wuitches. Pagan are persecuted for Devil worship, yet if any body actually checked... they would find out that Pagans and Wicans do not believe in or recognize the devil in any way , shape or form. Biggest point I wanted to say was this: I never said that depending on the times, that homosexuality was ok. But again, I do not condemn it either, That is not my place. Well, at least according to the Christian Bible that, is. Judge not lest ye be judged. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone

I'd check to make sure such an incident happened and not rely on pure heresay. I'd also tell the scout the seriousness of the nature of what hapened. Then issue a 6 mo suspension. Next time, he's out - end of story. Hold a troop/pack meeting with all scouts and parents. Even though most probably know enough details, I would leave out specific names, but explain what happened. Explain that necyt tuime, the police will be called imediately. That wether the police press charges or not, there will be a minimum of 6 mos suspension and next incident followed by expulsion. Incidentally, in most states, it does not really have to be the actual drug advertised. I can tell you that baby powder is cocain and I will be charged at a minimum of " selling a non-controlled non-illegal substance under false pretenses. Same for oregano. Law came about from dealers who sold fake cocain and pot. They still sold and stil made money so federal law recognized false substances too. Now it comes down to being human: WE all did stupid things at one time or another. We all were given a chance or two. You could send this child through juvenile system or could give the "Let it slide THIS TIME ONLY" talk. You want to know where that comes from? I snuck some of my dads cigarettes out and smoked them with my friends. I smoked some weed as an 18 yrear old. I drank a few beers or 12 almost every weekend between 18 to 24 years old. I even had premarrital sex at least once if not a whole bunch of times. Might have even kept a five dollar bill I found on the ground without seeing if I could find the rightfull owner. So? Well, I can't say I commit any crimes right now, I do an honest days work for an honest days pay. I do each job as if I were doing it for myself and I do it at the highest standards. I do not steal or keep what is not mine. I do not smoke, do not drink, nor do any drugs including 99% of prescibed pain killers. In this particular case, I would not call the police, ONLY becauuse it's too late. What are they going to investigate? What evidence, what crime scene what clues? All you will do is bring angst and misery to an issue that is over with. At this point, I would just concentrate on prevention and future incidents.

So while a 500 word paper may be an effective idea to your average kid.... will this guy get it? Will he truely understand what he is doing when writing te paper? By putting him back with tyhe other two.. are you sur4e he isn't getting the message that it was just no big deal? I do not mean you should call the police, but I think something stronger needs to happen. And while I think that the peer group trial and punishment does teach a valueable lesson, it also teaches that you can dole out punishment with the severity base on wether you like the offender or not. The popular guy gets a slap on the wrist, the least popular guy gets dishes duty and latrine duty for the next 3 campouts? And most importantly, do the other scouts really know how to deal with or understand a special needs scouts quirks and issues? What works for me or you does not necessarily have any afect on a special needs person.

I know it could be said that BSA already has policy and rule overkill as it is, but I personally think this is a case where another rule or guideline should be established. I have looked a a few different websites devoted to scouting and have noticed that, since the recruiter strip qualifications is council based,there are wide differences in qualifications. One council only requires that you attend the fall roundup. Another requires you to get at least 1 new person to join. Another requires 3 to join while another was pretty vague, but *hinted at* - if you talked a fellow ( currently involved and registered) Cub Scout to STAY in the program, you have earned the strip. In that last case, I imagine that all you have to do at the last meeting of the rank year, is to have all your scouts look at each other and say "Hey!, Don't quit okay!" and then at the beginning of the next rank year, hand out recruiter strips to everybody. While I don't expect a 27 point requirement to earn this patch.. shouldn't it be a bit harder to get? At the very least, require that you have to talk two new kids into signing up ( for the first time) and refer to you as the person who swayed them to join. Maybe there could even be a check off box like they have on product registrationson the scout application: " I joined because... checkoff #4 A friend ...........(friends name ) recommended joining." Your thoughts?

LOL Eamonn! Isn't that the lights out call for Troop 504 on campout?

HORIZON, That was a great answer. To be honest, I feel theexact same way. Lots of rules and decisions in all kinds of groups do not completely mesh with my ideals and beliefs either. I do not agree with the gay and athiest ruling myself, but do realizeI am only looking st the surface too. I don't follow the whole "Immoral" attitude about it either. Immoral is an attitude that changes over time and between cultures. Take for example, the MP of Uganda. Apparently it's acceptable to kill somebody of a different lifestyla than you. Butthen again, look at us who hate immigrants: We came form overseas, pretty much ran the Native Americans off their own land and then had the nerve to call them savages and kill them when they fought back against our intrusion and invasion. Yet the "Morals" of the time said we were right and the Native Americans were immoral and in leagues with Satan. But my bigget point is: Althought I may not agree with every rule BSA has, I still look at and like the overall product. My son will do well to learn what Scouting teaches, and honestly, I doubt scouting will change his religios or moralistic beliefes just because he goes camping. Now in my post though, I meant those who join up and fight BSA at every corner and at every oppertunity. If I was to go so far as fight a particular church, social club or whatever at every chance, I woul;d noyt join that club. I mean, what would be the tradeoff? What would I get in return?

Okay, so the technicallity of who decides on MBC's is answered. But am the only one concerned about the AC's attitude? Not sure about your troop bearshark..but in my pack, we would love to have as many parents as we can to help out. Even in our Webelos Dens...we could stand a few more MB counsilers. Granted, nobody wants a hundred parents getting in the way of the scouts, but help is help. At the very minimum, the AC should have said: "Hey, we couldm really use your help on the "X" committee". My concern is if your current AC lets personal feeling or a "This is MY program!" attitude get in the way. Granted, the parent wanting to help may not be suited for MBC, but again, seems like your AC would steer them to another spot that the troop could use assistance in.

AWESOME! Can't wait til the day I take WB21. At my BALOO class, 2 of our seven instructors were in Wood Badge. (One OWL , one Beaver) Well Mr. Flat Tail said that if there was one thing he could say about WB.. it was "As much as you learn about scouting.. WB may actually teach you more about yourself than anything else."

Actually Brent, He was saying YOUR ARGUMENT was sad!He did not in any way, shape or from imply that scouts in uniform or scouts in uniform who were also carrying the NON-REQUIRED Scout handbook were sad. Yes! Apparently, you can't! Requireing a scout to have his book is adding to requirements. Requiring a book as part of the uniform is changing the uniform. BSA did not say that you cannot add to requirement or change the uniform "Unless it makes practical sense to some troops>" BSA just said you cannot add to or change requirements. Now, if you were to go back and try that reading thing,, I never said we required a Cub Scout to do anything. But you did. You said your troop requires unifoms for BOR and requires a book to be part of a uniform for BOR. Your troop is out of line as far as BSA policies are concerned. Now, In my opinion, I'd like to see all the scouts in full uniform, but I also know the difference between my opinion and policy. I do not spout my opinion and try to pass it off as policy!

Why is it banned? I;m completely guessing here, but why not. Somebody doesn't like the idea of anything to do with guns being pointed at their kids. Not laser tag guns, not cap guns, not even your pointer finger with your thumb "cocked" back. Wht? Because we all know that if you even thought it for a second.. it will lead to a life of crime! Ha ha ha! Yeah, it's rediculous! But there could be another side to it too. Laser pointers have been know to cause eye damage . It has been documented by "People who study laser pointer eye damage"! I'd think the goggles you wear while playing laser tag would filter that particuler eye damage light out, but I am not a "People who study laser tag eye damage" expert. Then it comes down toi what may be the real answr: Liability! Yep! If BSA bans anything that might possibly be considered dangers ( not to include knives, real guns, bodies of water or actual honest to goodness fires) , then you can not sue BSA and get money from BSA. CYA to the 10th degree!

Okay, so I seasoned my Lodge DO by smearing canola oil all over it and cooking it for 30 mins at 350 degrees. WAIT! That's not entirely correct. I only smeared it on the surfaces that the food would touch. In hindsight, I can see that was dumb. I don't want the rest of the surfaces rusting even if not in contact with food. DUH! It stunk really really bad. kind of an ozone (lightning strike) welding steel smell. So right now, the DO has a slight sticky/tacky feel to it. Can I heat it up tomorrow for an hour at 400 and be good to go or do I need to do some "DO surgery" on it? And as far as the Sam's club DO: It is ceramic coated, EXCEPT where the lid and sides meet. At that spot, there is about a 3/16th wide area where the lid is not coated as well as the top edge of the sides. That is the only part of seasoning I was "attempting to do on that one. So do I do the big no no and scrub (gulp) the DO with soap and water and start over, or can I toss if back in the oven and do over LOL! ? Or do I burn it off in a fire and start over. I want to use this thing at our spring campout. Thanks! Mark

Okay, I am going to clear up a few things: First -" But I don't see how that fits in with your apparent belief (and the belief of those who currently, temporarily run the BSA) that one of the values of the BSA is that you have to be a heterosexual." That is not ny belief, but apparently the policy./ I stated that I don't care as I am not p[redjudices, racist or bigotted. I do not emphasize either sexuality while doing the scouting thing, because as I see it, camping, hiking, building something out of wood, etc has nothing to deo with sex. I also said that the only time I can see anything having to do with sex would be when identifying animals such as the differences in cardinal or Mallards ( or any wildlie where the colors are different between male and female). AS fsar as joining a club that you do not beleive in the policies and then fighting it.. I refer to ... well..... Merlyn. Why join this site? It is apparent to even blind people that the only reason * as well as only posts) are concerning the lack of gayness in BSA. I mean, his only reason to be on this site is to "try" and antagonize and sway those who are in the BSA. Why not join a PETA website and say that they should eat a triple angus cheeseburger smothered in gravy? But I'm not refering to a kid who joins and later finds out about one of the possible thousands of rules that WERE NOT DISCUSSED at roundup. Nah, I mean somebody ..such as your average gay person, who will join, knowing damn well that if/when the come out of the closet.. they wil have trouble and be pushed out. See, again, this is my deal: Scouiting is not gay or straight as I see it. It's an asexual thing. Camping in itself is gender and sexual nuetral. So is hiking , campfires or fishing. Name your favorite activity here. It's not a sexually themed activity. So anyway..I don't sit around talking like this: " I took my heterosexual fishing pole to the straight lake and in a "normal" way, caught some fish which I later cooked up while dreaming of missionary position with a woman. NOPE! I would just say I brought my fishing pole with hopes tnat if I was lucky enough to catch some fish..I could cook them. So why bring up sex? Especially if the sex you bring up is frowned upon ot banned? Okay, let me be frank about it: Merlyn: Why does everything about scouting have to be about gay this or that? Why does gay have to be brought up at all? If you were to go to all the other forums.. you would not see people just talking about how straight they were while scouting. They just talk about scouting. Not straight or gay... just scouting. So if you have to make everything about how gay you can be while doing - whatever activity it is you are doing - and you know it will cause problems.. why join up? And in another point: If you are atheist, theist, agnostic, or whatever.. that is totally cool with me. I'm happy for you. But why drag it into everything you talk about. I like NASCAR , but I don't bring NASCAR into every single conversation I have. I like fishing, but again, do not include fishing into every single conversation. Likewise.. though I am a God fearing person, and I do have my beliefs.. I do not pray before, during, or after every post I make here in this site. I do not qoute psalms, parables or any other reference from the bible. Now please don't go the whole Government blah blah blah thing. The government represents all people of the US , and most of those people have some sort of beliefe. Even those who have the bible under their arms. Their is no law that says government cannot be okay with religion. There is one that says that government cannot create or acknowledge just one religion. But that's bnot the case with BSA. Matter of fact, since BSA happens to have CO in many different religions.. it happens to be a fine example of " recognizing ONE religion. So it coms down to this: If you are openly gay.. why join BSA... except to cause trouble and problems with others? I am not gay. I do not have a problem with gays. But I would not join a gay club with the intentions of complaining about gays. I wouyld not demand that they become a gay AND straight club. It was a gay club before i joined. I knew it. If I joined.. it could only be because I wanted to start trouble. And that's just stupid no matter who it is!

I need some advice. For my birthday, I asked for a dutch oven. I got two. One is a Sam's Club special. It's a 8" round red ceramic coated cast iron dutch oven with a nice pretty rounded lid. The inside is a very pretty white ceramic lined. Yeah, it's for the house. The edge of the lid and top edge of the sides are un coated. The other DO is the real McCoy. A 12'' oval raw cast iron with the 2" legs on the bottom and flat lid witha 1" lip/rim above the flat part of the lid. Soanyways... I turned my oven to 350 degrees and coated the edges of the lid of the "pretty" Do and the inside of the "REAL" DO with coking oil , and let them bake for about 20 minutes. That about right? Did I cook them long enough? Hot enough?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I'll be the first to say that I never heard of Dale until you guys posted it here. Now as far as the "club" goes, BSA may not have the title of "STraight outdoor camping club" , but it is a part of it's being. JUst like it was pointed out, when you sign as a leader, you swear to promote the values tha6t BSA pushes. The name may not be in the group, but likewise, my local VFW isn't called the "Veterans of Foreign Wars who swear they believe in God" either! Okay, there is a word that describes this, but i can't seem to grab it. That word describing how God or well, just recognition of a higher power and the policies that exclude atheism and homosexuality. Anyway, if you go to join a club, and see on the membership form that the club is against or for certain activities or beliefs... and you cannot abide by or agree to those beliefes..... why would you join? I used to smoke. I quit last Sept. But when I used to smoke, I would not have joined a club that participated in ( uhmmm whatever) and cry about the non smoking policy if it was listed as a term of membership. That make more sense? If I joined that club anyway, would it be obvious that I had an agenda other than the spirit of that club? I mean even within religion, smaller , more minuscule details seperate one religion from another. Case in point, Anglican/ Episcopal church pretty much came was created by King Henry the (7 or 8th) over allowing divorce. Divorce! One minor detail. Between the Anglican church and what it was before that. So anyway, my point is: Why join a club that you know that you can not meet or see eye to eye over it's requirements. Why not either join a similar club or start your own? And specifically in the case of sexual orientation or atheism.. both of tose two groups should have plenty of folks that would sign up. Again, I am not predjudiced, or racist,. I'm not saying we shouyld be segregated. I just saying I wouldn't join a club just to spend all my time fighting the rules of that club. At some point, why would I even want to join? Nobody at that club would like me would they? If I did get the rules changed.. all the people who made up that club wopuld probably quit, so i'd be prety much back where I started! That make sense to anybody?

I never said that participation in "some" requirements was the same as all requirements. Somehow, I think one of my commenst to the post Brent mad was mistaken and we are actually arguing two different parts of one subject. My only point I have argues (although misunderstood) is that completion of a requirement is determined by participation. Not that showing up for a few equal completion of the whole list of requirements. TRhis is truely a case where hearing somebody's tone would make the difference. Especially seeing as how I tend to leave out a letter, word or comma everynow and then. Point is, I will not require a Tiger Cub to test and give any number of specific answers to ant one requirement or break a requirement doen into sub groups ( a,b, c,or d.) If he showed up and actively participated during the meeting or activity of that requirement, then he has completed it. Now, I will - right here and now apologize for not actually making sure that each of my posts was fully understaood in the way I was actually thinking it. But at the same time, I cannot say that I will step back when in a few circumstances, I made a specific reference and was argues back with a different one. Specifically in this case: ""Do your best" does not override the fact that requirements cannot be changed. Requirements as written must be met to earn an award. It's right there in the advancement policies book... "No council, district, unit or individual has the authority to add or subtract from advancement requirements." Now, I NEVER said anything about changing any requirement, but instead was arguing exactly what BSA said. I think it was at this point that my arguement was misunderstod, as I was argueing that (according to BSA) participation was following the requirement. At this point, my comment was misunderstood as "Simple participation met all requirements? But I never said it. Anyways, it's all good. Not sure about the rest of you, but I enjoy arguing as much as the next guy, even if I am misunderstood! LOL! One more thing: Don't take my comments as hostile or hatefull. I do not mean or intend for them to sound that way.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Bret... I DO wear the full uniform in it's entirety. Even the offical socks that nobody can see . But as far as being up to speed... Who's speed are we talking? Your's? I don't think so! You adamantly keep telling everybody that no matter what under any circumstances can anybody except BSA add to or change the uniform. No if's and's or but's about it! PERIOD! But then keep saying how you require scouts to wear the uniform for BOR and EBOR and that the book is part of that uniform. I called you out on it and you turned away and challenged me over blue jeans.

Good Luck Noles. Keep us updated!

Good Luck Noles.

Anybody remember that one? It was a skit from Saturday Night Live back in the late eighties to early nineties. Phil Hartman, Jon Lovitt, and who ever that weeks guest was. John Goodman I think but not gonna swear on it. So anyway, the three of them (Phil, Jon, and John) are doing a call in tv show. They are sitting ona log in front of a campfire in the woods. Their main line is that you must be gay, communist AND a shoot guns. So person after person calls in. 1st guy is communist and loves to shoot guns. Want's to know if he cam join. OF COURSE NOT! He must be gay too. Second caller is gay,and communist,. but hates guns! Can he join? NO! Must love guns too. 3rd caller is gay and loves guns, but not communist. No dice there either. So waht is my point? Well, I just thought about that skit after (how many) weeks of seing gay themes being the top politics and issues catagory. So here's my line of thought: I am not gay. Never have been, can't imagine I ever will be. I am married, have kids, believe in god although I may not necessarly agree with most/all mainstream organized religions. I am not racist, bigotted or predjudiced. I have great friends of all persuasions. I do not judge them no more than I expect to be judged. It's not my place as the good Lord said so. When it comes to scouting, I do not push heterosexual teachings or leaders over homosexual ones either. Point of the matter, I feel any sexual teaching do not belong in scouting other than identification of male from female wildlife ( think Cardinal here or Mallard).Heterosexual acts while scouting or camping etc.. are no more alowwed than homosexual, so it's a moot point crying about one over the other to me. See, I can not understand why any individual would want to join, much less fight agaisnt a group who values or bans a certain kind of behavior, line of thinking, lifestyle or race. If a club said I had to be gay to join, and I wasn't.. I am not going to demand they change their views or policies in order to join a groups based on what I am not. I mean..for example...I suppose I could try to join a ladies only health club,and cry discrimination when they say no. But why would I want to join in the first place? LOL! Yeah, I know there is that, but what else? Why is it so wrong for woemn to have a club based on being women who also want to work out? Same for gays, straights, nuetrals, blacks, whites, purples? Everybody want to have or belong to a group that stands for some kind of common value, trait, activity or like. Basically, It seems to come doewn to this line of thinking: "I can have my segregated grouop, but yours is wrong!" Anyway, Why join BSA is you don't l;ike the policies? It'sa club! You don't like what the club does or it's policies...don't damn join! Likewise.. IF I did have an issue with gay people.. I wouldn't join a gay club and whine and cry about everybody acting gay. That would be stupid of me! I don't go to XXX theatres and then get upset over the playlist. It is a XXX theatre afterall. I wouldn't go to a FORD dealership and demand they sell an equal amount of Chevy, Dodge, Nissan, Toyotas..etc. and so on. So justb like the gay communist gun club.. if you are not gay, communist or into guns..... why would you want to join?

Not my exact words if you were qouting me , but that is exactly what I was saying!

Bad choice of words on my part. By line item,I meant that there is not a set of established steps to each requirement (thinking like a contractor here: foundation, flooring, outer walls , roof, dry in, shetrock, finish trim, carpet, CO, closing.) In Tigers, the requirement is ether complete or not. One definition as declaired by BSA is participation. Perticipation in a requirement = completion of said requirement. Participation in a requirement IS completion of said requirement. That ia not giving a free ride or sweeping requirements aside. It IS following BSA rules concerning Tiger Cub participation and completion of Tiger cub requirements. Nowhere did I ever say give them the badge just for the sake of giving it or just because they smiled real nicely. Those tiger cubs showed up, they participated. They met the requirement. TRhe biggest concern I'd have here is wether parents understand what constitutes "completion of a Tiger Cub requirement as BSA has outlined it as compared to what a den leader might say it means. That parent may think the son hasn't come close , but based on what other parents said instead of what BSA said. But looking at the bigger scheme of things.. these are indeed 1st graders that I would think any pack would want to have back as Wolves. But hold these guys to standards above and beyond what BSA does... you're gonna lose alot of kids. This is a Tiger Cub badge, not a license to practice brain surgery or open heart surgery. They show up, they "Do THIER( not our) best" ...they met the requirement! Yes, it's that simple!

Basement... that's my whole point! I don't want to rush it. But I don't want to wait too long either. Granted, each and every person has their own unique timeframe , but I wanted to get a general feel of when would might be a good time.

page 18 of the Tiger Handbook *****Simply participating in the activities and doing his best constitutes completion.***** You sure will unless he just sat in the corner without "participating". And you are not giving it, he earned it. Particip[ation is the prerequisit for completion. That's all! If the Tiger Cub participates.... he HAS COMPLETED the requirements. Now, don't assume I mean he came to the meeting, so give him a badge. I'm not gonna hand one out to the kid who does nothing but run up and down the hallways all night. But you are talking 1st graders too, not high school Sr's or College Jr's. If you can keep that boy's attention for even half the meeting.. I'm pretty damn impressed If the Tiger cub makes an honest effort, then he's participated. It does not say he has to complete a line item list of requirements. It doesn not say "Finish all of these completely to your pack or the other Tiger cub's parents satisfaction. page 18 of the Tiger Handbook does state that ""Simply participating in the activities and doing his best constitutes completion." It also states that there are no *"performance requirements"* , and that Cub Scouts should NOT be tested. For the speculation part, I meant in general, and not specifically to this post. Seems to be a constant thing in here that everybody assumes the worst of any Cub/Boy scout about anything. I could say a cub missed "a" meeting, and before the night is over... somebody would ask why we are even talking about a chronic absentee in the first place. Know what I mean?

At first, I would have said my ADL patch because it means I'm not just a parent who sits in the corner, but acts like I do everything. But then I realized that some ADL's as well as DL's DO wear the patch and pretty much sit in the corner and let others do everything, and take credit for it ( thank goodnes it's rare!) So for now, my BALOO patch. It's my first "earned" patch as I did not just go out and buy it. I earned it, Hopefully, I can say that as soon as I get it, my TRAINED patch will be my favorite because it shows two things: 1) I am actually committing to learning skills, ideas , and methods to actually help the program.. 2) I have actual training behind my ideas instead of "This ought to be okay!" LOL!