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I gave my personal take in the other thread, but the bottom line ... Benchmark, Excersize Daily, See Results That's what we're trying to get into the boys (and often, parents) heads.

Injuries. Sports has a higher rate than scouts. In fact one year a b-ball coach warned some girls to not go on a backpacking trip because he needed their ankles for the game next week. I told them to tell the coach their joints would fare better in 36 hours with me than in 1 hour with him. I do try to make it a "both-and" with the youth, but there are a lot of folks - parents included - who make it an "either-or".

O.K. Kudu, I'm changing my answer to yours. All that being said, I am against laser tag because it is an expensive indoor game in a confined space. And the next time a youth asks me, I'm plagarizing you ... Scouts should to pretend to kill each other as Baden-Powell and the BSA's Bill Hillcourt intended. Like my daughter said at the end of a day backpacking with our crew/troop: "You aren't going to get a conversation about improvised explosive devices sitting around a girl scout campfire."

Thanks for letting the boys inspire you. Something I do, since the boys in our troop all have some sort of Christian affiliation, is keep a New Testament and Psalms handy in my pack. (I just got a waterproof one which mysteriously disappeared -- back to the zip-locks!) In advance of the trip I tell the chaplain's aide to think of a verse or a Psalm he would like to be read on Sunday morning. Before we set out after breaking camp, I encourage the boys to circle up and take time for reflection. One boy reads the verse, maybe there's a song, another says a prayer, we go. It sounds simple, but I think it's quite effective in setting the tone for the rest of the trip. It's enough church for the boys who like church, and it's just different enough from church for the boys who have a hard time sitting still in pews. Plus it helps the aide learn how to be prepared for this sort of thing without having to be wired into a bunch of resources.

gotta run: bless your missus. When your daughter's 14, can she join my crew? Most of my GS don't want to be out of reach of a curling iron. It's been the non-GS that have been willing to throw on the backpack to enjoy the trail. The blame falls squarely on the folks.

Just a suggestion: don't judge a woodbadger by how pompous he/she may be to you. Judge by how much the boys love him/her. Since WB doesn't fit all categories, and we have testimony that it doesn't fit many of them in most councils, we can conclude "not cult." Although the lack of real wood was a bit of a disappointment. GR: I gotta say "all the stuffed animals and irrelevant crap" compensated for the fact I had no time to get a pumpkin for this weekend. Crow ornaments were all over the porch. Not sure if they'll be allowed on the tree in December though. Although my experience was largely positive, I'm glad I waited a few years to take the course. It gave me a backdrop to adjust expectations. BD: The prisoner's dilema is intended to strip down to "bare bones" the shame that could be induced in society -- cult or otherwise. I had studied game theory as a hobby years before, so it wasn't as emotionally charged for me. However, it did give me pause. Regarding stealing totems, our SM actually made it clear in not so many words that he would frown upon it. I can see how that one behavior would sour me on the course ... Lesson to WB'ers: how you comport yourselves while on staff or as a student will help a scouter answer the question "Will I really want to volunteer with these folks for the next __ years?" Do your best to make that answer be affirmative. On the other hand, I now have five goals and a deadline to complete them. Being a guy who kinda "goes with the flow", it's nice to have some concrete benchmarks. Also, when I do make goals, they tend to be a little "high minded" so it was nice to have someone help me hone them down to things that could be achieved in my position as Crew Advisor in the next 18 months.

Because our boys and girls will have opportunity soon enough to hurl photon's and other more substantial projectiles at determined enemies, there's no need to hasten the process. In the meantime, they can use their hands to tag an opponent and capture their flag. Baden Powell's point was that THOSE were the skills (getting close to your opponent, learning his movements, his thoughts) a boy should be learning. So, we focus on making sure the kids can handle arms day in and day out -- targeting, cleaning, building ... because we think and understanding of the mechanics of the thing is what better builds character. Let the church youth group take the kids to laser tag. We don't need to be all things to all people.

I swear by Suunto's brands. The needle settles FAST. That means one less thing to wait around for and a little less stress as you read the fine print. The magnifying glass is a good suggestion. Alternatively, you might want to consider a military/surveyors' compass. It has a magnifying glass for reading the bearing on the opposite end of the housing while sighting your target through a crosshair. The only problem is you need to carry a protractor to get your bearing off the map.

Gern, you didn't say "science", "politics", or "fantasy football", ergo your bias was revealed. I guess my selection of alternatives revails my biases, but oh well ...

But to charge adults dues on top of the BSA registration, and their personal time and money spent, just seems downright greedy to me. The dues for adults are a couple bucks over registration+unit insurance. My understanding is that it covers some of the SM's discretionary costs. (E.g. a kid can't afford a fee and we don't want to make it a line-item, or one ASM is truly cash strapped and we have to cover his fee for a year, or some bone-head up an earns himself an award we have to pay for, whatever.) The treasurer's reports look rock-solid and well audited, so we don't worry about the extra fee. We all know there are plenty of troops that don't charge it, complainers are welcome to go there. Moreover if the college boys really need to save for dates at the coffee shop, they can always be primary with the crew at registration+insurance. Fact is, I have a couple dual-registered under-21 ASM's who are primary with the troop, but I don't have any who are primary with the crew. So I guess we'll remain "downright greedy" as long as the only grievances are from guys in chat rooms. !)

Meeting space. Make sure your CO is aware that things might be a little noisy when you meet.

Short: All right, color me really confused! An 11-year-old boy is only 11 for one year. He is only allowed to go on three campouts during that year. How do you turn three into six? Your not confused, you just need statistical consultant ... 11th birthday in June: camps thrice before December. Happy New year: camps thrice before June. 12 birthday: the govener's off camps forever. Kinda tough on those January babies, huh? Be it 3 or six, that doesn't put the limit on the potential number of 1st class recipients. You could have 24 camping nights, with 4 different groups of 11 y/o's cooking on each. Seems like a lot to work around the letter of the law, but if you had 24 kids all wanting and working to knock of FC, wouldn't you bend over backwards to give them the opportunity? Besides, you might want to encourage a little one-upsmanship. By night 18 I bet you'd be eating pretty good!

The one a boy showed me weighed about the same as 4 AA's, I think. Problem was wear and tear on the connectors, etc...

MT: I know the chart. Problem is it works best rotated 90 degress! You can't really think of it as "who takes orders from whom". You're partners tasked with different objectives. So all of the "SM do this" or "SM do that" amounts to so much hot air. If your 18 - 20 year olds want to be part of that, they are some sick puppies. The chart does convey (to a degree) who can remove whom from office. But, even that's a tedious process and again, not something I think the 18 - 20 y.o.'s want to be part of. dg98: I encourage all of my venturers who are part of a troop to consider serving as ASM's when they turn 18. It's a little more financial hardship for them (troop dues tend to be more than crew dues), but I know the SM appreciates their company -- even if it boils down to a few meetings and a campout throughout the year! Oh, and congratulate the boy for me. I'm sure he'll be proud to know you're bragging about him on the internet.

Not sure why voting on the committee is such an issue. Our perspective is the committee approves the troops program, which means they work for the SM+ASM's. Our CC comes and says "what do you need?" SM+ASM's say "X Y Z", the MC's come to a consensus on how to best make it happen. Not much to vote about! ASM's have a lot of lattitude as to where they can serve (including Jambo troops, which I don't think are available to MC's).

Of the many things those two words "Eagle Scout" signify, certainly foremost (above religious preference, leadership skill, etc ...) is adeptness with paperwork at an early age. Clearly an HR excec dreads the day when someone arrives who can better dot the i's and cross the t's. Soon enough that new hire will start gunning for their position. Thus, the move in corporate circles to strike those two words from consideration amounts to little more than a feeble attempt at job security.

Allowing "open" and "restricted" CO's does little more than codify what CO's can do in the first place! And I don't think it really helps parents joining a unit. Some CO's might not know they are "restricted" until someone whose beliefs don't represent their own steps to the fore. There could be lots of reasons for this. I know a Jewish adult leader whose troop is under a Catholic CO b/c his reformed rabbi is towing the line about the homosexuality issue. This causes extensive "hoop jumping" on everyone's part. (CO insists the troop find a mass for the Catholic boys if they are out on a Sunday -- what to do with the non-Catholics/non-Christians -- etc...) But, working it out at least helps avoid the press. (HEADLINE NEWS: MOST FOLKS IN NATION WORKING TOGETHER IN SPITE OF RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES ... really doubt it would get past the editor's desk.) So, I think it is better for each unit to communicate up front to parents what is the general leaning of the CO.

Okay guys, spare us the Bob bashing. He's "winning" with the boys I know. They love him. (And, yes, they know he used a stunt double. He told them straight up when they asked.) Anyway, it sounds like I won't have to hold a "crew officers briefing" anymore. If that's chapter 1 of ILSC, I make 'em read it and move on from there. Honestly there is nothing in the old VLSC that I would not hesitate to use for PL training. So, I have no problem with making the overlap explicit. So Kodiak's still going to be around? Good! Cause I still want to trek! Hey can somebody figure out how to deliver WB21 on a trek?

It takes a unique individual to obdain the silver. I know of one recipient in our entire area, and he is turly a unique individual. Still looking for that youth in my crew or troop who's ready to take on four "eagle caliber" conservation projects.

Whatever has happened, I hope you are not discouraged to the point that you write yourselves out of the picture. If your troop is large and active and you like the newly appointed SM, he/she will need your support. It is great to have ASM's in the depth chart. It's great to be one and take turns helping the boys organize activities. Instead of mapping out five activities, each of you offer to coordinate one. As a crew advisor, I rely on our troop ASM's a lot. One lead a contingent to Philmont when neither I or the Troop SM was able to go. When you're not needed for something, throw a line in the water and see if the fish stopped biting. Or, check if the back of your eyelids are the changing color. Keep trained, attend district roundtables, communicate, communicate, communicate. P.S. - Enjoy this weekend!

Although I am strident about it not being a requirement for boys, the trainer's EDGE is not a bad tool for adults to have in the arsenal. If you have a boy who is having a hard time getting his message across to the patrol, pulling him aside and saying "Hey, I know you're having a hard time getting Scout B to tie lashings well enough for you to have a working trebuchet by the end of the week. Let me tell you a way to make sure you've covered everything that needs to be covered to help someone learn ..." Also, a subtle point that my woodbadge instructor brought out, the steps don't necessarily procede in that order. Furthermore, the steps are more circular than linear, as sailingpj described. So, yes, I get MT's point that we all could be reminded of how to prepare before we speak! But, I still want to convert you all to #1-ers, because 1) one could say the same for nearly any form of pedagogy, and 2) it does not explicitly include reference (in the Tenderfoot's context, the Handbook). In other words, someone could use EDGE on you, and you'd still come away as MT put it with no advice on how to look it up to figure out what the teacher was trying to teach.

MT: And teach[ing] becomes like others stated, maybe no more than the scout who is the teacher doing the skill while others watch. And the problem with that is???? Well let me think about what could be wrong with a scout A just doing a skill while scout B watches Scout B imitates. Skill is learned Scout B says "what did you just do?" Scout A says "read the handbook". Scout B reads and learns. Scout B says "why are you doing that?" Scout A says "read the handbook". Scout B reads and learns. Knowing that he has a boy's attention, Scout A explains "I want to anchor these poles together to make a catapult to launch my water bottle into SM Kudu's tent 300 feet away, wanna help?" Scout B forgoes the handbook, probably doesn't learn as much, but can practice lashings until SM Kudu's nap is interruped by water bottles hitting his tent. MT: You need to give reference to something where the adults know that the scouts need to have some form of guiding the other scout(s) until they are able to do it for themselves. Give the scouts TIME and a Handbook. If it's a task that matters, if it requires the help of others, they will learn pretty quick the best way to teach it. (And it may or may not be EDGE.) MT: And that they know what is expected in order to get signed off on the requirement. I bet SM Kudu will sign off something for those boys if they assemble a machine to deliver from 100 yards out!

Half a tick and we'll welcome you to the dark side, Bevah! To be fair, our SM gave the boys EDGE instruction at the last meeting, and I think they are no worse for the wear. The 'task to learn' was folding paper airlplanes. Since that's not so far off from tarp engineering I let it slide. (To avoid ruining his hard work with my negativity, I took the parents to another room and discussed the patrol method.)

Let's sound off, #1's! Sorry BPT - but your gauntlet is irresistable: Prior to the dreaded EDGE requirements, we didn't teach them how to teach. ... Can you think of a better and simpler way to teach them how to teach? Please share. EDGE is intentionally simple. "Do Show and Tell" - jblake, you're a genious!!! Market that baby now! Three verbs make it simpler. Kindergarden vocabulary. It even sounds more fun. It CAN BE TRANSLATED INTO OTHER LANGUAGES AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MESSING UP THE ACRONYM. Or as I taught troop guides: Have them read The Handbook, Do what they just read in The Handbook Help them do what they just read from The Handbook. Have them do what they just read and saw, preferably before someone else who can sign off in the Handbook. This is better than EDGE for two reasons 1. It is easier to remember actions than acronyms. If you teach this way, your boys will teach this way. 2. It adds one thing that EDGE does not. THE HANDBOOK. Any scholarly endeavor that's worth it's salt is referential. It gives the learner a place to go that does not depend on the teacher. (Yeah, you could say that's implyied in "explain" but every time I've seen EDGE demonstrated -- including WB 21st -- I have not seen them pick up a handbook of any sort.) If a boy uses either of these two SUPERIOR teaching methods and can't remember EDGE, I'm signing their book! My point is, EDGE is superfluous. Telling a boy to teach is superfluous. Instead tell him to help his patrol get ready to hike and camping. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF YOUR TROOP don't even require a boy to invite another scout to join your troop if there's a chance the kids first meeting will be a lesson on EDGE!

As always, this depends on the leadership structure of the crew. It's a rare night that I can get all of my officers in the same room at the same time! If roundtable night would work best for them I'd encourage it. (It wouldn't, so I don't.) Likewise, we attempt to meet twice a month, but from August - November that's also an impossiblity (durn championship athletes who also make great officers). The best we can do is offer one "meeting" and one "social" activity (campfire, kayaking afternoon, service project) each month. So, leverage the situation as best you can. Drop in on the youth for a minute and say "Hi." Let them know they have the privelage of immediate access to dozen's of scouters and encourage a couple of them to take a rotation sitting in on roundtable each month! Obviously if you have a district Venturing Roundtable, delegate it to those youth. If this is in fact a situation of convienence for the crew advisor, and the youth really don't want to be bumping against all those adults, they'll get him to change the date pretty quick.