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I think it's a fine HS program. Some SM's are only MS leaders. Example: On an area event, a 6th grader was feeling homesick as dark set in. Technically, I was their as Crew Advisor not ASM, but you all know about the "many hats" thing. He knew me best, so he approached me with the "I want to call my mom." speach. His 8th grade buddy who recruited him was nowhere to be found. (Like I said -- area event -- lots of chaos.) One of my Crew's chaperons wanted to help but I kept her at a distance. Instead I found the HS age boys in the troop and laid out the problem to them and let them come up with some solutions to help make this lil' guy feel comfortable ... I'll spare you further details (e.g. aprising SM, talk to Mom on speaker, the boys cooking soup, etc...) but the kid stayed the night and woke the next morning ready to enjoy the rest of the outdoor weekend. Conclusion: this is one of the best programs to offer a HS boy a lasting sense of importance in his community. But only if you ask the HS boy to help you with the MS problems!

Regardless of requirement "toughness" - the best way to keep 16 & 17 yr olds in the program is to keep out 10 - 12 year olds. Boy Scouts has kept lowering the age level at the bottom end but not the top. I don't care what they are doing, but being 17 and in a program that contains 10, 11 and 12 year olds can be frustrating. - acco40 Yeah, I saw that troop of "over 15"'s every year at summer camp. It just kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller ... Meanwhile, when my crew started, none (that's zero, nada, nix, nill) of the boys who were also in a troop left it. They didn't start attending crew meetings more and troop meetings less. In recent years, only half of the 14+ year-olds in our "sister" troop responded to invites to join our crew. (One did so reluctantly because he wants to go on a Seabase trip we're planning.) And the troop has A SWARM of little'ns! They can be frustrating, but I don't see them keeeping older boys away. In fact the only practical difference between the crew and the troop is that the troop has more frequent meetings and younger boys are present. Therefore, I must conclude that the reason many boys are uniquely attracted to the troop is a) they like a weekly routine, b) they like the privelage of be mentoring, c) the want a break from the girls they see in school all day, and d) they don't love paperwork like a real Boy Scout should so the youth application gets lost.

Some perspective here ... Scouting is a little like church. Every now and then someone pulls off a great revival. Folks say, "Let's have this mountain top experience all the time." Then the Almighty says, "Um, how about you get off this mountain and go into all the world ..." In scouting, we think we need super active scouts with the whole HS age troop doing high adventure or Jambo every 24 months, assuming that'll keep them engaged. Rubbish!!! Yes we must have boys count the cost, but that cost should be: a weekly meeting, maybe a monthly meeting if you're in leadership, a campout or two every month. The reward: you learn values that make you a better musician/linebacker/striker/mechanic. In my opinion, not only can a scout do band and sports. He must do band and sports or OA or some other time intensive community activity tailored to his interest. That's the only way in which he can work out the values he picked up on the scouting trail. For example, any fool can seem clean if a scouter is within earshot to call him on cussing, it's in the locker-room or soundproof band room that he'll find out if he's falling short on the 12 point of the scout law. And no, helping younger boys qualify to take their patrols hiking and camping is NOT a middle school activity. It demands something that seems to come along after that Hebrew age of acountability. IMHO that something seems to come out the best when a youth has focused activities for 10+ hours a week to compliment his 1+ hour a week scouting experience. So you got this 15 y.o. eagle whose done 2 high adventures + Jambo? What do you have to offer? One thing that I have seen very few bands/teams offer: about 4 SPL/PL's who will have his undying respect if in the following year he spares about 50 of his precious hours mentoring them and the diverse youth under them.

Some groups demand a large minimum amount of time by their very nature. Quality comes from practice. Scouting demands 1 hour a week minimum (roughly). But, if you only put that in, you can't expect much in terms of advancement. What we count on is that boys will look around and see other boys putting in more time, and eventually on average you get many times the minimum put it. In terms of outright demanding it, to be in a troop -- don't waste your breath. But, once this troop decides what they want to do ... If you have kids that want to camp locally every month, you can get by with 8 boys making a 1 hour a week committment. If they want to tap a high adventure base -- hello! Everyone needs to be proficient. Fundraise forever, welcome to the hike a month club, etc ... Plan their own high adventure? The minimum becomes much more like any team sport. You gotta be sure you trust your fellow scouts before you hop on that bus with them. You'd better have conditioned just like you were in a competitive team activity. If some of your boys are in band or on a sports team, it actually helps. They understand that certain situations demand more committment. It's that boy-led thing again. They get the vision, they'll do the demandin.

Make sure the troop that you move to honors your son's POR. This is especially important if he hasn't made rank in a while. From other threads here, I know that SM's can be suspicious about that kind of stuff. You might not want to be too quick to judge the calendar thing. I sometimes put unconfirmed troop events on our crew's calendar so that if whoever plans to do something, we don't intentionally pick a date where half the boys are committed to doing something with the troop. The VP Program might simply be trying to help keep Dad and the dual-registered boys organized. Of course, if two units are operating that closely, my knee-jerk is that they share one calendar! Or more specifically, they share the same web page, but each group has a person responsible for posting their respective events. Regardless, your sons aren't seeing any significant activies in the troop's future. Either there are no events, or they aren't being communicated. (Tough to tell when your aren't CC anymore, eh?) That's as good a reason as any to leave. Your youngest son may be swayed if he sees another troop with solid plans in the works. On the other hand, being in a different troop from big brother has a lot of appeal! Brace yourself.

... When our committee put in the rule of Leaders having the full training of a SM within a year of registration or they are denied going on events, it was not something the committee came up with on a whim. The SM at that time came to the committee and asked that they put this rule in place and enforce it. ... - MT Which comes to my rule (stated before, but I'll repeat it in bold): Never ask someone for a rule. They might just make one for you! God bless those committee members who protect their SMs and Advisors from their own stupidity and don't make rules they ask for but don't need!

Agreed. It's not ability to sign off on any advancement. It's that they've demonstrated the skills needed to plan and implement a fun and safe hike or campout. They still need to show their plan to the SM. It must follow the GSS, local regs, etc ...

My SM was a church organist, so no complaints about band. My HS weekly routine: 5:30AM - hit the alarm. dress. breakfast. 6AM - Practice piano for an hour except, 6:30 AM - invite the paperboy in to chat, sometimes run the rest of his route with him. 7AM - Study what I blew off the night before, pack lunch, get bus. 8 - 3 - School, which included a period of band (marching or stage depending on season) and practice during study hall if you had one. 3-5 - Practice band or a game (no lights at our field). On off days, chores around house. 6 - Dinner with mom and dad. 7pm - Scouts/Jazz Band Practice/Section Practice/Youth Group/Pack for a camp-out or retreat/ depending on the day. 9pm - Procrastinate on doing homework while watching TV with the folks. Maybe practice the horn -- especially if a fellow trombonist was after my chair. 10/11 - Wash up. Read Bible (10 Chapters). Pray. Lights out. Oh, I lead section practice sometimes at my house without adults present. Same thing at school. The brass section would only call in the director if we were stuck on something. Same with jazz ensemble. So, my band was youth led as well. It helped prepare me for PL/SPL responsibilities.

This is a stupid requirement. If a boy isn't bragging about what he did with his troop or what his troop or crew is doing next year, his troop stinks. Inviting even one boy to a stinky troop does no favors to Scouting. I know boys in my troop who have brought in two or three other boys before the knew about the requirement or after they already achieved 1st class, that means they've probably invited dozens more. Heck, our crew exists because boys wouldn't stop talking about going to Seabase to the girls at their lunch table. P.S. - We don't dole out recruiter strips either. If a kid asks for one we'd let him/her get it. That hasn't happened in years.

True confession (and hopefully this brings us back to training), we ASMs in the troop and my SM will sign off on any boy who cannot decipher the acronym EDGE but can tell us what he does to get Johnny to start a fire. They pass if they say: - "Learn Do Teach" - "I did it. Then he did it." - "I let him watch the other patrol who's good at lighting fires" - "We read the handbook togther" - "I dunno, I just used up your matches till he figured it out" I don't want a boy to know the latest fad in pedagodgy. I want him to know that he has it in him to hand down a skill to someone else. I then apologise to the boy that I can't remember the acronym, but if he keeps doing what he's doing (with fewer of my matches), we'll be fine.

E92: We must be in parallel universes. I love when my wife comes as a chaperon, but it also means hauling the 6-man instead of my backpacking "coffin practice" tent. GM: We run a co-ed unit, and the Mrs. can't backpack. So bunking too close to my chaperon might raise other "'semblance of evil" issues. Beside's I tend to be more like TB and just follow the rule and not overthink the issue. Fact is, predatory behavior works around tenting configuration and the best strategy is to keep the youth together and adults at a distance -- however the land allows it. Regarding applying this in a co-ed venturing situation. I really don't specify how to cluster. But, I haven't had young men asking to pitch right beside young womens' tents. They tend to naturally set up on opposite sides of the adults from each other.

Most conservancy lands and hiking trails leave that sort of room if they allow overnight camping at all. Even farmer's lots are big enough for the adults to camp at a distance from the boys. For the sake of "leave no trace" I encourage my youth to camp in random clusters. Rows and grids leave footprints that can show up on arial photographs days after camp is broken. So, the adults would be in one "cluster", the youth would be in another cluster (or clusters, if there are more than one) further down the trail/valley/tree break. My personal preference is to pitch my tent up hill from the youth so I can see all clusters. My other chaperon sets up on the opposite side of the valley (if it's not more than 200 yards wide). This is the ideal. Obviously, we adjust accordingly for each site.

Sounds like you need to become a crew advisor just to balance it all out! (jk) There will come a point where one of your units could benefit from one of those trained leaders stepping to the fore. They've seen your example, give them a chance to follow it in a year or so. This situation is not unique to urban areas. We all wind up wearing multiple hats. The challenge is to make sure they are the ones that suit our gifts and talents. I don't like "Eagle mills", but the notion of "Scouter mills" appeals to me.

Folks, here's the bottom line: If you do not provide for patrols to plan and execute their own hikes and campouts with your approval, they WILL do it without your approval. And when they do, they will likely invite girls along, and someone will bring beer and smokes. In the process, they will "dumb down" their outdoor experience to the lowest physical and moral denominator. They will do this outside of Scouting, and some (maybe all) of them will decide they don't need your troop anymore. Some others will take a trip that is well beyond what they can handle, and they will put themselves and their friends in harms way because they did not get that "third eye" to review and approve their plan. So remind your CM's that the alternative to a well-planned independent youth outing is not a well-planned adult supervised outing. It is a poorly planned outing that may put the youth in your community at serious risk.

The boy I'm dealing with falls in the "obvious, if you just look at him" category, but the council advancement committee doesn't review these things with the kid in front of them. Thus, the doctor's note. Remember: Boy Scouts love paperwork! In the same vein, looking at this kid, you'd wonder if he could survive a mile hike. It may take an hour. But the kid is tough. Regardless, the advancement committee doesn't see the kid, so they demand proof that you've thought this thing through. We will work on the rescue requirements, because even if you can't handle the equipment, you can coach someone who can.

'But if they called these "Area Venturing Summits" I think that would distinguish them from "The Summit", etc.' Problem is The Area Summit winds up being redacted to "the Summit." I like "Encampment", but I'll go with whatever the youth decide to call it. Actually, "Insomniacs Revenge" defines nearly every Venturing activity!!!

We have resources galore (human and environment), but no scout has earned the MB for lack of interest. You have a boy who has an interest. From my perspective, you've a tenfold advantage. (Of course we temperate clime folks don't have a clue and maybe that's your point ...)

Definitely read the book, because ... If you ask someone about a rule, they will make one for you. Also, Den Chiefs should be selected by the SPL *and* scoutmaster (note who's listed first) if they are coming from a troop. And, yes my Arrow of Light knot is upside down. Patch Dyslexia. I'll fix it one of these days.

Saw the show -- and the uniform. Told my family, "Them trademark layers at National are gonna have a field day!"

My jr. fire fighters love their welding gloves. But, our Jackie Chan fans love shouting "HaPaTangs!" as they cook.

I bet a topic called "Pitfalls of Starting a Boy Led Troop" would draw similar discussions. When adult egos get in the way, it tarnishes the youth's view of the program. I certainly have had to apologise to youths more than once for things I've said. Some adults in our troop voiced concerns about our crew (or, more accurately, about hypotheticals that were NOT happening), and the boys picked up on it. This made that group of officers unwilling to try ANY combined activities during thier tenure. It took a lot of effort to keep them from branding those adults inappropriately. When my son turned 18, we sat down and talked about these and other issues he observed. (Some basically good people had made a negative impression without even knowing it!) I made sure he went into adulthood with a positive attitude toward every leader who helped him on his way to Eagle. So my point is: however you get branded -- try to grow a thick skin. Let the youth know that you want to help them have the best program and most postive experience the BSA can offer. (This includes the young women who signed on for this gig without much concern over the politics of the thing.) Fox, looks like you and your son may have to vote with your feet. Just keep in mind that voting by staying (if he's okay with that) sends a very strong message. MT, you might want to warn your son I was in a tight Leadership Corps (old school Venturing Patrol) and had no liking for Explorers (the Venturing equivalent in my day) -- until I had a daughter!

Just in case you really want to go "over the top ..." There's this Middle Eastern dish called Kibbee. It is basically lean ground meat and crushed wheat mixed together and baked. (Actually, if you trust the farmer who raised the lamb you could eat it raw, but I digress ...) There are lots of variations, but one simple one is to mold two patties of the stuf and put fried onions and your favorite mix of nuts and spices in the between the two. This is perfect for a foil pack! Do a search and you'll find tons of recipies, pick the one with flavors that you like and go for it. The down side: 1. GET THOSE HANDS WASHED BEFORE YOU START. 2. mixing the meat and wheat might constitute some work, but I've seen most guys take it as therapy. P.S. - You dutch oven guys, I've tried this, but it is pretty tough to get the timing right in a dutch oven. Do a single layer if you try it. Foil pack definitely works best.

The venturing entries on wikipedia was a good start. Get a hold of a venturing leaders guide. There is also a little "selling venturing" booklet, but I don't know how that applies where you live. Is there a Swiss scouting association you can affiliate with? The reason I ask is that although written stuff is handy, my Venturing Leader Specific Training course really help me connect with leaders who helped me set the right tone for my crew.

Yep, everybody's a critic. But it takes a lot of work to find constructive critisizm. (E.g., "maybe you should be like this, but maybe this is not practical, how about starting here ...") After a while, it's just easier to adopt a my-way-or-the-highway attitude. Inflated egos may gravitate toward WB, but I wouldn't blame WB for inflated egos. Beads or no beads, you'd bump into the same situation. (Well, at least I have.) I've done the church elder gig. A lot of the time you're stuck being a rudder ... make small changes to turn a big ship. Press on, and keep a clean airsick back handy!

Not essential in terms of survival, but for paperwork ... I carved my own rubber stamp out of an eraser. (It has various totems related to a club I'm in and my hobbies.) When boys ask for a sign-off in their books, I try to have the stamp and pad in my pack's top pocket or in a plastic clipboard. I now carve one for my SM's every summer camp. If you look up websites about letterboxing, you'll come across the essential "how to's" for carving your own.