qwazse

And happy Newton's Birthday for all the faith-in-science-only types. Although a closet Arian, he might still have some things to say on this day: "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."

As long as kids have access to firearms or grow up to access them, we should teach skills and safe use and encourage them to be as proficient as possible. Proficiency includes an understanding of safe and ethical use. 'nuff said.

One trick: Make sure the PLs and APLs have special opportunities (PLCs, crakerbarrels, training campouts, special service projects) where the seasoned leaders can pass on skills to young ones. Over time, is balances out the skill levels. Also, younger patrols should be able to invite senoir scouts with a particular skill to provide a training session. You should never let an older boy think that he has graduated from helping younger ones become better scouts.

Hard job, long hours, little reward, that's the bottom line for most former DE's who I know. Even if you butt heads with your DE, show them a little respect and write them a note or give them a thank you for the work they do put in. Charlei

I prefer not to mock people's religions (or lack thereof) out of fear of wrath of the God who called them into existence. But I've had friends with no such fear feel quite justified in abuses along the lines that Meryl described. That doesn't stop me from pointing out the difference between a guy in a silly hat reading a fairy tale and an Orthodox veneration of a bishop of the Church. I really hope nobody sees that as mocking.

3 million armed teachers. Average class size of, say 25. We'd be betting that over year or two that no more than one of those teachers would unload their clip(s) on a class. Or rather, that no more than 26 students will be killed nation-wide because of the policy. And, moreover, that all of psychopaths in the country will see classrooms with armed teachers as a deterrent. Long odds, if you ask me.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

No offence TC, but the really annoying part of this all is the equating of this figure to the stature of Nicolas of Myra, or that poem to the level of scripture. Pretty soon the works of Tolkein will be banned because too many parents are naming their kids after dwarves and hobbits. P.S. - Skeptic, you know I've said elsewhere don't ask for a rule, someone will make one for you? There's got to be a coralary for substitute teachers.

When something bad happens, not even narrow interpretation of the rules will be adequate. In fact, when the files are opened by some reporters injunction 30 years hence, that very bad thing will likely be blamed on narrowly interpreting the rules. Comfort and Joy to you SP!

You have to break it down ... For example, I'm a map guy. Given the time, I will get multiple copies of a location (paper and electronic). Study the route, study the terrain, check insertion/extraction points, look up hikers' reports, call the ranger station about a particular plan, nag buddies, find a couple of youth to train in planning at that intensity, laminate the best mapset, mark it up. It's what I do. With or without boys in tow, I'd probably be doing that. (In fact my not-so-secret Santa just handed my the latest PA Trail guide as I type this.) I'll then bore my family by sitting at the table with that best map and mark-up and narrating what worked or didn't work on the last hike. The other paperwork, well that makes me surly and ill-tempered. I don't want to talk about it because it gives me a bad attitude towards everyone who get's in the way of me getting it done. I'm no fun to be around when I'm doing it. A scouter who needs to "pull back from the edge" is someone who is not actively delegating the parts of the job he hates to someone who might actually enjoy doing them or will at least do them better and/or faster. I'm a proud man and maybe don't cry for help as often or as loudly as I should. Fortunately, the Mrs. is a good coach for me in that area.

Finally dawned on me why son #2 was prattling on about "alpaca lips".

I was going "yeah sure" until I got to the "trusty GPS." Definitely will forward! That's something that we're holding against our SM until another scouter (probably it'll be me) makes a better foible.

"Psychos look for Defenseless People to attack...When as the last time a Nut Case attacked a shooting Contest or a Cop Convention?" I think there was an attack on a CIA base near the beltway just a couple years ago - beat the guards to the draw and kept on firing. But yeah, psychos (once you know a few) are also pathologically lazy. They generally don't hike miles and miles into nowhere just to get off their shots, not while there's a building full of innocents nearby. (God help us all.) Bears want easy food. Lionesses want to account for every large mammal anywhere near their cubs. Pigs want to clear their territory of aimless wanderers. [beav, I'm not arguing you, but there are captains and then there are captains. You have to be a little self-absorbed to think you can hold a hull together year after year on open ocean. Some do that with more grace than others. That's all I'm sayin' about that.]

Don't bang your head against the bulkhead over this. (If you're my height and on a sub, you'll be doing a lot of that for other reasons.) Do your best to arrange separate accommodations. Sometimes that means the adults bunk in the the far corner of the same room. If you have boys who have shown discipline and trustworthiness: no problem giving them their own cabin. You can set up your tent just outside in the snow for lights-out! The cabins/houses in our council camps have separate rooms or sometimes only alcoves for the adult bunks. We adjust accordingly. On the way to these high adventures, some hotels require an adult occupant in every room. We adjust. (Of course the youth are 14+ and there are at least three of them to one of us.) Those 8-man crews on 44' boats at Seabase? Adjust. With co-eds? Really adjust! That is not a slippery slope. What would be a slippery slope? Try this: On the next backpacking trip your contingent arrives in a huge meadow, and you insist on setting up your tent wall-to-wall with a youth's tent. Your excuse: "We were bunked this close last month in the same space ... now it's two separate tents as per G2SS." Now your skiing downhill!

Thanks for the anecdotes Jp. I have relatives who hunt hog in FL, so I get what you're saying. Were you with a pack/troop/crew on any of those outings? The skunk kills, was that as part of camp staff, or did the ranger ask every SM to shoot first, ask questions later. Obviously, there's a distinction between high adventure and outings suitable for 11 year olds. Salmon fishing in Alaska, sombody better have your back with a high powered rifle. Heck even the occasional Seabase captain keeps a pistol (in case of pirates). I'll check with a troop who went hiking in Glacier if any in their party carried, but I don't think they did. In general, I can envision numerous situations with scouts where a carried weapon would cause more problems than it solves. Most importantly, if you carry, do you bring along a gun lock for when you don't have it on you?

OEAE, thanks. I always thought of Christmas as a bit of a dark time. Maybe that's because when I was a kid, I got the part of Herod in the Christmas pageant. Something got to me about a guy so powerless to get his hands on his usurper' that he clears a village of infants and toddlers. The only reason the angels said "peace" was because most stories have them appearing before the witness dies. But I suppose that if ruin and destruction usually come before you, the best thing someone can hear from your lips is "good will toward men". Maybe it's the same way with us. We take peace for granted, but we need to practice it. Our children need to learn how to let peace, not destruction, go before them. To do that there's a lot of lessons about grace and forgiveness and mercy that need to be ingrained in every mind. Without that, it's a miracle every day that destruction is avoided. . And maybe that's the point of Christmas. Oh, and let's forget F&C. This thread is exactly where it needs to be.

#s of self/friend-inflicted gunshot wounds vs. # of beast inflicted wounds Facts anyone?

File it under "reasons why 18+ y.o.'s couldn't be bothered."

There was a mini flip chart called "selling venturing". It had a page of talking points for different target audiences (including prospective COs). I have no idea how to find it. Not sure if there's something for packs and troops.

Acco, I think hat's how most youth see it and I'm not about to disavow them of the notion -- especially given E92's admonition. In general, I don't spout off rules, I make the youth read the guide and sort it out for themselves. Good advice on the emergency contact thing. There's no category for it, but the roster is a convenient place for #s. Faster look-up than all those med forms. By the way, the getaway weekend link I posted is a sweet gig. I'm looking forward to it after banging out this charter.

BD, although I have every reason to believe you're right, talking to boys is what we do, so I'm with EL on this one. I don't think any one of us should let adult shenanigans get in the way of that. Also, if the mom is a crew advisor, her feet need to be held to the fire. We can hope she'll be receptive to EL's standards and use it in her own role as a scouter. (Although honestly, for most people, it takes years.)

That's great news. It's exactly that kind of shared event that helps people think of how to help the pack. Hope the boy they send you puts in that extra hour a week. But, even if he can make it sometimes, it's a huge help. Just make sure he checks in ahead of time, and let the SM know if he's AWOL. Hint: summer camp is so much more manageable with den chiefs, it's worth footing their bill. Boy scouts and the age of velcro ... don't be surprised if your den chief has to read up on that square knot!

Oh, and the kid who snuck a gun into camp? Not one of the "bad" or "crazies." So, yeah, deal with the problem personalities, but don't ever think that in doing so, you've dealt with the problems!

We got a few and each is different. The Asperger's kid is actually the best one, but he doesn't stick with stuff, feels bad about it, eventually quits. I'm hoping he'll come back. The behavior disorder kid gets a short leash. Violence = go home. The worst this kid has done was throw punches, and he manned up an apologized to the troop. He has eventually learned to walk away from situations that anger him. Now, he knows to send himself home. A parent is always with him. If a parent doesn't agree with how we treat a kid or what we expect from them because their kid needs help, we show them the door. If a boy gets a suspension from school, we expect to know the when, how and why, and the boy had better give a solid plan for improving in the future. Some slower than others, but most kids who have us deal with them quickly and directly like that keep coming back better than before.

At the upcoming ski weekend in the hills there are men's houses and women's houses. No honeymoon suites. (For any crews in the neighborhood looking for something to do the first weekend in the new year: http://heritagereservation.org/winter/winterv.php) But, if she were willing to tent with him in what we hope will be perfect ski conditions, I would set up their tent and bring breakfast-in-bed personally! Only one of my female youth (my daughter) has been willing to winter camp.

pap & pack - I know this is hard to believe if you haven't seen it for yourself, but "peace and comfort" can find its way in to to people robbed of all happiness. You see it in some people, victims of war and famine and the worst depredations, and it seems to be a supernatural work. You want it for everyone else. Maybe even for yourself. Maybe that's not possible. Maybe the forever-tormented are the rational ones, and those that find comfort and dust off the ashes and walk tall in the midst of such sorrow are as mad as one who would perpetrate those heinous crimes. Maybe the mix of us need to live together so we don't forget how much work needs to be done on the level of the soul. Doesn't matter. I'm stuck with a God who offers peace and goodwill. I'm calling him on it. And even though I haven't seen my friend for decades and never met his wife or kids, I'm hoping that somehow my prayers will better help them be messengers of all that. Finally, like Ea. says, there's a difference between a person who is insane and one who is indifferent to human life. So if you know a crazy person, this week might be a good time to get in touch and let him/her know in not so many words that you're glad they've managed to keep it together.