qwazse

This is a fairly new requirement. (About 10 years old?) I do have problems with it because I feel it was added to serve the organization more than the boy. Be that as it may, it is now required. If I were his SM, I'd like to know if something about the program is vexing a scout. Your nephew's SM may have the best intentions, but may not be aware that his encouragement is backfiring. No need to take "friend" literally. Enemies or complete strangers will do. Maybe a fellow scout could "loan" a friend. And there's no reason he has to do it by himself. Maybe he and another scout can't talk to a couple of classmates. Maybe the patrol can set up a demonstration campsite at a school or a public park, and invite boys to come visit, then hand out a fly with meeting info.

I file all of the arguments (not wanting to sully the rank, PLs were signing off indiscriminately, poor training, etc ...) under an undeserved mistrust of youth, and a misplaced faith in adults. Every now and then I get an "EMT cert signed by my prof wouldn't amount to much." (Basically, what the Beav mentioned.) But, the response to that is "Fine, one youth instruct another test. Adults, find us some MBC's!"

Yep, this has been part of the discussion nearly as soon as the acronym was rolled out. I once joked that the phys ed folks should join the artists insist on recreation, making it STREAM.

@@Eagle94-A1, to avoid whitewashing things ... I can envision each of your four issues being problematic in youth-sign-off-only troops. Helicopter moms will do what they do. Boys who tend to slip through the cracks will find a way to continue to do so. That's not the point. If I discover one of these issues and go fix it because I'm always the guy checking books, the only result will be I will learn a dozen ways people rig the system. I'll probably then tell other adults my "you won't believe it" stories around a campfire once the boys are in bed. Nothing they didn't already know. If a boy discovers these issues, he talks to his fellow scouts (and hopefully a caring and thoughtful adult) about it. We chalk it up to experience and move on.

You misunderstand. If a PL has a hard time teaching, he's generally not gonna know it until the guys he was trying to teach demonstrate their skills to him. If indeed the PL has a hard time teaching (e.g., he's never completed the requirement himself), he can get help. If the PL's not sure the boy did well enough on the test, he can ask for clarification. ("Mr. Q are a coot and a snipe two different animals?") Then, as the PL learns through testing he becomes more confident in sign-offs. Breaking this cycle squanders leadership opportunities. There is nothing to be gained from it.

I think we have a problem with rhetoric. Adults hear the word "gradual" as an excuse to retain control. Stosh is thinking a 30 second transition. The control oriented leaders are thinking of a 6 month transition, but then they have new elections and an mandatory refreshing of PoRs, and everything else that goes along with maintaining the illusion that they can micro-manage boys' personal growth. There is no transition! Teach your responsible boys what you expect them to have observed when they sign a book. How you do that depends on the boys. One time, when our troop was small, I just circled them all up and we discussed what would be the right thing to do in some common situations. Now, I just do it one-PL-at-a-time as an SPL/PL asks for help with sign-offs. Other times, maybe your SPL's and JASM's can do some skits demonstrating ethical and unethical sign-offs. If you have only 11 year-olds, then the SM is going to have to sit with the PL for a quite a few sign-offs. (Especially with this new book, which I find harder than other editions to navigate.) But, until SMCs/BoRs it's the PL's signature on the bottom line. Finally, regarding "Step 2 the boy is tested." Keep in mind that the Advancement Method should not be the only tool for this process. The sign-off on some knot-tying might get you bling, but that alone won't help your patrol win in the knot relay. It certainly won't help you secure those guy-lines at night in driving rain.

We're talking going 0 to 5 mph here. @@Beavah, the problem is the process does not lend itself to the convenient two-steps of "learning and testing". You don't get the full benefit of step 1 unless you are implementing step 2. It's not easy ... no bad habit is easy to break. But, putting off breaking it is not the solution. Bless the SM, he has endured me bucking his system and refusing to sign my initials in any book. I'm not about to wait for a PL to get some tester's certification. But I will, if the PL requests, sit at a table when he's reviewing material with a scout. If the PL is having trouble, I might give him a pointer or two. But, at the end the session, I'll ask him, "So, can your man do the job? If so, sign." If a troop doesn't start insisting on youth sign off sign off starting today, adults will still be doing sign-offs a year from now.

There are no cons. IMHO. Pro: adults can pay attention to health and safety like they're supposed to. Or maybe since merit badge counselors are in such short supply these days, maybe they could be out recruiting them instead of bean-counting boys' achievements.

Guys, this is ridiculous. Of course Catholics think everyone else is lost sheep. How lost is a matter of upbringing in particular schools of thought. The Pope tries to be polite about because right now, the world often looks to Rome for guidance and in some parts, labeling someone non-Christian is the first step in treating them in an unChristian manner. It's not in the Vatican's interest to condone mini Crusades popping up around the globe. We're scouts, and we're Americans. We can handle if someone sees the world differently than we do.

Here I thought it was just the PA laws that were making adding volunteers so tough.

Really? Who here has denied a candidate because the workbook he started the project with was no longer current at the time of his BoR? What's so great about the current workbook that the 2015 would not suffice? Maybe a boy should not fill out a workbook at all. But rather complete the proposal, report, etc ... in essay form. Get signatures on separate sheet, then when the time comes print up the current version, and type "see attached". The instructions give boys latitude in a common sense way. Keep the BS out of the BSA.

The project is done. A year ago. Makes sense that the 2015 workbook that was current when he started would apply. Oh look, there's these instructions on the page that NJ references ... "Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, No. 512-927 This is the newly revised Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook. Scouts who have already downloaded the previous workbook may continue to use it. ..." I want my scouts moving on to new projects for other purposes, not spending hours copying from one form to another for the sake of looking officious.

Stosh, I'm saying that here has to be someone in your vicinity with an interest, maybe even a vocation in this stuff. Why aren't they on your district's MBC list?

Mods, I would rather the core discussion remain in it's original location, and a new topic spinoff in I&P. There are boots-on-the ground problems that are addressed here, and I'd hate to see that lost to scouters who might never open I&P.

It astounds me that committee members would be ignorant of this stuff. But then again, look at the things that are NOT required of the committee: Reading the Boy Scout Handbook Reading the Scoutmaster Handbook Looking at a per-patrol Journey to Exellence matrix Evaluating patrol hiking and camping scenarios during youth protection training It's good to hear of Webelos AoL reversing that!

There has to be counselors for these badges. Archeology professors, county agricultural agents, forest rangers, Native American leaders ... Where did all these people go?

Our councils in this area rely heavily on camp masters. Mrs. Q considered signing us up for training, but she wanted to bring the dog, and that is generally a non-starter for most facilities.

That is basically the decades-old practice. Straightforward (need I say military standard) operating procedure: everything in triplicate. In fact, I vaguely remember my SM giving us our copy or partial the morning we returned from camp. It might have even been before we got in our cars at camp. We have however, been hearing a lot of this lately. It would be nice to find out where the idea is coming from.

Swimming is more appropriate given the Summer Olympics ...

@@TryingToMom, FYI - we try to discourage boys from taking more than 3 MBs a week. So packing more than that in a 1st year's schedule would be atypical. We had a situation two years ago in the troop we merged with where PLs were not signing off in good faith, so the SM insisted that adults sign off. It was an anamoly, and I encouraged him to back away from that. I am working now on having him get the scout's portion of his blue card back to him ASAP instead of waiting for the CoH to include it with the badge. (Actually, many troops award badges during regular meetings so this is almost a non-issue. I say almost because the scout's record should be returned to him the minute the SM signs it. The point of the signature is to confirm that the unit copy was recieved and will troop will order the badge for the boy -- kind of like the your dry-cleaning receipt confirms that they have your clothes and will get them cleaned and pressed.) Again, our adults were doing things one way for a reason, but now with hundreds of badges being earned, and boys going to different camps, we have to get back to a more boy-led routine. Your troop may have gone through something similar, but the adults got stuck in that routine. In my opinion, you're son is bearing the brunt of that added Beurarcracy in slower time to advancement. In all likelihood another troop in your vicinity would operate differently. Be that as it may. If your son likes his patrol and his troop, it's a minor thing to squabble over. The really important thing is: can you now trust him to go out on the woods on his own? Does he have new skills to forstall death? Is he a better citizen? Can new sew his own patches (what few they gave him) on his uniform? If he's at least going in that direction, you're winning.

Anything you read just for a grade is a slog. And you haven't read English until you've read Chaucer. I chose my college English classes based on the reading list, not the other way around. (Cantaberry Tales was on the list for a course titled "The Comic Idea.") I'm not an avid reader, so I choose the books I pick up judiciously. The most recent was thanks to my son's Eagle project (relocating and recatalogue the church library). There was a box of discarded biographies that poor Mrs. Q had to welcome into our family room. That included Mednick's Teresa d'Avila, which I then sent to a venturer who was having a tough time in basic training, and a bio of Cam Townsed, which I gave to my mother-in-law who need a little something inspiring. I try not to let too much stay on my shelf (Josephus, Tolkien, Lewis), I think I might add El Dishad at some point. But truth is, we have a profusion of really good writers. I've resigned myself to never reading them all.

@@TryingToMom, welcome to the forums. And thanks for all you do for the boys! I firmly believe that no SM/ASM should sign off on scout skills, ever. The most precious initials in that handbook (should it survive the next 6 years and be unearthed by chance in a couple of decades) will be those of his buddies who happened to be his PL/SPL when he was ready to demonstrate his skill. As an adult leader, my goal is to get the right boys together to ensure that transaction happens. The blue cards have written on them very specific instructions as to how they are to be handled. When adults meddle in that process, all of a sudden their time is consumed signing hundreds of little boxes instead of holding conferences with boys about their scouting career. So, if your son is bothered by this, you can now explain why. How to fix it is another thing. All of the above have offered good suggestions. One more: forget about advancement. Focus on your son successfully acheiving the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with his mates. If he's moving in a direction where you could see him being more self-reliant every month, savor that. The rest will follow.

Okay let me camly explain this with all due respect to Mrs. E94 ...DO NOT EVEN ENTERTAIN STARTING A CREW UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!!!!!!!! I've posted reasons elsewhere. But it boils down to a big case of no-matter-where-you-go-there-you are. If another couple of adults want to make that happen, give them the DE's number and ask to stay out of it.

I'm not complaining about our boys anymore. I had a talk with a young missionary who, in the country she was serving, started implementing an accelerated reading program, piloting it in a rural school. Roadblock #1 (of many): the curriculum required reading story-books to students (obvious to us ... to a culture steeped in oral recitation, not so much), but teachers were barely at 3rd grade reading level. For one teacher, who it turned out was assessed at 1st grade level, story time didn't happen at all. Maybe sending her back with some Pee Wee Harris comics could motivate some adult men to improve their skills!

The one thing my scouts and venturers "complain" about me is how I "push" them into leadership roles ... not PoRs, necessarily, but actually doing specific actions that take them out of their comfort zone, but make life better for everyone around them. After the fact, none of them (to my knowledge) tell me they've regretted it. Some of them, after they meet their local military recruiter, realize that I wasn't really all that pushy! So @@blw2, now that your son's heard from you, take a step back and let others in your troop do the nudging as far as scouting goes. You and the Mrs. will have enough herding cats In other activities.