ParkMan

Hi Darlene,

My sense is that your son's troop is pretty typical.  I get the sense that very few troops fully provide a youth led program.  I know that ours does not. 

In our troop, we have a long time Scoutmaster.  Though he's been a Scoutmaster for a long time, I get the sense that he really doesn't understand what youth are capable of and/or how to motivate them to really lead.  I think deep down he thinks we're boy led, but just doesn't realize that there is a lot more to it than what he does.

One thing that really disappoints me reading your note is that it sounds like no-one is willing to sit down with you and try to explain what's going on.  As a Scouting volunteer, I am never too busy to talk to a parent and to explain.  I may not agree with their request, but I will always listen.   If I ever told you "have your son ask his patrol leader", it would be accompanied by a longer explanation about why I was suggesting that.  

Having spent four years fighting a Scoutmaster and an established cultuer, I've realized that the better thing would have been to simply find a better troop.  I'm the Committee Chair of the troop and in hindsight really wish my son had chosen a different troop. 

Sorry to be a bit negative - but this is the frank feedback that I wish someone had given me.  I had all kinds of alarms going off about my son's troop and I said "well, I can volunteer and fix it".  I was wrong.  If you've got a Scoutmaster that doesn't get it and you have a bunch of adults that like his style, there is not a whole lot you can do.  To that end, I'd really consider if this is a troop you want to make work. 

Best of luck!

That's one of those things that was hard to avoid when I was a den leader.  So many of the requirements lend themselves to sitting and doing.  Took practice to get there

It's tough sometimes - particularly with the younger cubs. 

I had a few meetings where I just bailed on my plans and said - let's go do something outside or even just play a game.

The current online courses are:

SCO_3001 - Overview and policies

SCO_3003 - Sexual Abuse

SCO_3004 - Bullying

SCO_3007 - Certification Test

It strikes me that there are some gaps here in the numbers -  as if they intend to add more content.

Also - they have both a mandatory and helpful category.  Again, seems like they have infrastructure for more.

I did - I don't recall that being covered.

Looking at the course numbers, I presume that more content is coming.

Welcome!  Thank you for taking on one of the absolutely best jobs in Scouting!

I've seen a lot of WDL who operate a program where the AOL year is the end of the Cub Scout experience.  Boy Scouts is a new, but related program  for the boys to do next.  I think this is why we see the biggest loss in membership when boys go from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.

In my mind, it's a continuum.  Just as boys go from Wolf to Bear and Bear to Webelos, so too do they take the step from AOL to Boy Scout.  It's not that the WDL needs to spend all their time getting the boys ready, but they do need to make it a smooth process.

4 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

When I offer Den Leader Training courses for new Cub leaders in my council, that's actually a large part of what I try to convey. As a Webelos Den Leader, I think it's important to be aware of the local Boy Scout program so that I can sufficiently prepare my boys, not only for the program, but for the leaders and Troops up to which they will be advancing.

My den feeds in to the Troop sponsored by our shared CO, so I always make it a point to attend their committee meetings and to know the SM and his assistants personally. That way I can give them information about the boys moving up soon, any special needs, et cetera, and I in turn can prepare my boys for the program and group they will be entering and the leaders with whom they will be working. I view the WDL as a bridging character between the world of Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, so I try to be deeply invested in both programs so that I can provide the best Webelos program I can now, while making sure my boys move up to a solid Boy Scout program later.

I don't have any kids of my own - I am not even married yet - so I don't know if I will ever be asked to serve as a leader in the Boy Scout Troop. But any Webelos Leader worth his salt will have Boy Scout preparation foremost in his mind as he prepares his activities and works with the boys under his care. This is the last year they get to enjoy to Cub program, so it should be geared towards the transition they are going to face when they move on to the boy-led programs coming up. My personal barometer of success as a Webelos Leader is this - any boy who fails to earn the rank of Scout within his first month in the Boy Scout program isn't entirely to blame. That responsibility lies with me - if I really do my job, they should have it done within the first week or two. When I first started, there were one or two boys who took a long while before making it to Scout. I took that to heart and made the necessary changes to my program and my leadership style. Since then (fingers crossed) none of my boys have taken longer than three weeks to get it done.

Nice!  We need more folks with this kind of vision.  

You're welcome to come be an ASM in my troop anytime!

My gut says:
- 15 minutes for announcements.  summer camp, philmont trip, whatever.
- 10 minutes for FOS or other special presentation
- 15 minutes for a scout talk or two.
- balance on awards.

Do most of you do refreshements too?

6 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I think we should make a parent newsletter and cut out all of those COH announcements.  Do you think that' a fair suggestion?  (I am secretary.)    I don' t think that the boys at PLC would be willing to tell the grownups to cut their portion.  

This is a great idea.  It is also 100% within the description of your job (Secretary).  

To me this is one of those things that if you do it well it can have a tans-formative effect on a troop. A newsletter forces:
- up front planning.  You can't just wait until two weeks before to say - "hey, we've got a camping trip"
- consistent messaging.  You, as secretary, figure out length, format, etc.  Parents get used to that and love it.
- families rely on it.  My daughter's middle school has a newsletter.  When I can't remember something about a upcoming event I go back and check the latest newsletter.  9 times out of 10, it's there.

My troop does not have a newsletter.  We literally send of 20 emails a week about all sorts of things.  Someone forgot a book - SM sends an email.  A reminder to bring shoes on a camping trip - ASM sends an email.  I'm convinced that if we had a newsletter our emailing would instantly drop by 75%.  So instead of 20 emails, we might send 4 or 5 a week.  Parents would be much more likely to actually read them.  Now - it's like we're shouting above the noise.  This is exactly why the just spent 45 minutes having adults make announcements at the COH.  Because no one reads emails, it's the time to tell them everything you've already emailed 3 times about.

Go for it!
 

2 hours ago, blw2 said:

fast forward to after about a year after my son joined the troop.  I was seeing serious signs of boredom....and we really didn't even do all that much at the den level.  The troops might be set up less advanced in the patrol method than even you do now, and that could be a set-up for let-down and disappointment...

I saw that too with my son's troop.  Making pancakes & hotdogs isn't all the hard for a scout to do.  You can easily do it as a Webelos, if not a bear.  But, when he got to Boy Scouts, the leaders took a step back and had him doing stuff he did two years earlier.  I'd have been bored too.

One of the things I saw in Cub Scouts was that den leaders tended to be parents.  So they had a pretty good idea of what their son could do.   Fast forward to Boy Scouts and the ASMs tended to be longer term volunteers who just liked Boy Scouting.  They didn't know the kids that well, so they assumed the least common denominator.

50 minutes ago, David CO said:

Scouting isn't a competition. I don't think there is any such thing as a below average scout. 

Scouting is about having fun with your friends. It is not supposed to be like school or sports. Scouting doesn't have grades or class ranking. There is no above average or below average. There is no best of the best. There are no championships. There are no all-stars. There are no winners and losers. 

I am often annoyed by people who try to take the competition out of sports, but I am even more irritated by people who try to put competition into scouting. Not in my unit.

We talk a lot in Scouting about leadership.  To me, a big part of leadership is standing up and leading.  Every scout could do that, but many choose not to.  

We've got a kid in our troop that shows up 90% of the time, leads all kinds of events, and puts himself out there.  We've got other kids that come 20% of the time, never camp, never participate, never show leadership, and in short - just don't try.  We've got a lot more kids in the middle.

As adults, I think we want to encourage boys to be more like the first example.  Do things, try things, take chances, be a leader.  Having a program like the OA which provides an incentive to lead is itself a tool to teach leadership.  If a scout tries and puts his heart into it, should he get into the OA - you bet.  But, I think for it to be an effective tool, there has to be a line somewhere.  If there's not line, how can it be a tool to incentive boys to try & lead. 

@Eagledad @Eagle94-A1

I completely understand.  I don't think bad of you at all for saying No - I don't have the time.

I'm in the middle of my own burnout phase.  Been Committee Chair for a troop of 75 boys with a Scoutmaster who has turned difficult and ungrateful into an art form.  I do get it.

I've said in other threads that I think the real problem behind much of this is the neglect of our district committees.  Too few people left doing too many jobs.  We lack a structure that develops new leaders and builds up our "community scouting" team.  Camporee's suffer, Day Camp suffers, the OA suffers, the list goes on.

I just think I've got a choice.  I can mourn Scouting's passing, or I can be a voice in my small town that says let's do better.  In fact, my plan is to say no to most everything, but instead work to find those people who will say yes.  Maybe it won't work - I don't know.  But it's all I can think of.

17 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I think what OA represented is dead. OA used to recognize the above average scouts. They were experts with woods tools and felt very comfortable alone in the woods. They were givers of their time an represent Friendly, Courteous, and Kind to a fine art. Todays adults prefer mediocrity so that nobody feels bad being the below average scout. Advancement is more desired in groups and leadership is given so that each scout gets a turn. OA was a program that gave the above average scouts a bigger arena to expand dreams. Now it's just another boring program that is challenged to fit in a troop agenda.

Barry

Then change it.  

Heck, just get your OA group to simply adopt your goal:
"By joining the OA, you have chosen to join an elite group.   We represent the best of the best scouts.  While a member you will become experts with wood tools and will become confident alone in the woods.  You're expected to represent the best of the Scout Law.  Here you will be given a chance to become even stronger leaders that you are today.  If you're up for that, this will be an arena to expand your dreams.  If not, that's OK, but this isn't the group for you"

I'd start with that.  If everyone quits then go recruit a new batch and build it up again.  This stuff is only mediocre if we let it be.

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If memory serves, doesn't the Webelos have to talk to the SM for Scouting Adventure? That could be the SMC.

I remember earning the Scout badge a week after Crossing Over AND getting the time requirements between Scout and Tenderfoot waived due to AOL. My old troop would do the investiture ceremony within 3 weeks of the Webelos Crossing Over, as the troop neckers were handmade and not readily available at times.

Sadly I do not believe many WDLs are doing their job properly. They are treating Webelos as Wolves and Bears still, when it should be the transition phase. I'm seeing it with one of the packs that feeds into us; their Webelos are just are not ready for Boy Scouts when they cross over. And from posts here and elsewhere, this seems like a nationwide problem.

What I've been seeing is a much bigger divide between packs & troops that there should be.  The WDL are definitely part of the pack culture and leadership group.  I think it's just hard for them to think Boy Scout because they are so surrounded by Cub Scout culture.

What I've proposed is that we have troop leaders who were once WDL teach the WDL training course in person.  Teach the material from the persepctive they now hold being an ASM.  Hasn't happened yet, but someday

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Yes but isn't this where the Scoutmaster guides them?   Isn't there something like -- well if you want to go to Disneyland -- how can you make it relevant to scouting, and are you willing to do extra fundraising?  

This seems pretty easy to solve to me.  The camping coordinator or Scoutmaster needs to ask a better question.  Something like:

Scoutmaster: Boys, we need to plan the camping trips for this year.  We can do one or two large trips - like Philmont or a long road trip.  We also need to do 10 weekend trips that are within a three hour drive.  Please come up with a list for both groups.

The camping coordinator's form can simply ask both questions.  If, for the big trip, every boy puts down Disney World - then great.  if they put down Disney World for the monthly trips - hand it back and say please fix it.

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes, the OA has lost its luster. Started back when you could vote for whomever you wanted instead of 50% of those eligible. When I found out a SM rigged an election so that everyone could get in, I was ticked. I don't know what happened after I became inactive with the OA due to Cubs Scouts, but my chapter is dead in the water. My oldest, who has been eligible for some time now, has no interest in the OA.

I think of it a bit differently - your chapter, and perhaps lodge, has lost it's lustre. 

I'm coming to realize that it's our generation's turn to make these institutions great.  Of course the boys run it, but our generation of adults needs to be behind the scenes lining things up so that it can happen.  It feels to me a little like volunteerism is down, so it's making that harder these days, but it seems to be the challenge that's out there. 

We did something like this when I was a Cub leader.

On a few campings trips, each den level was responsible for doing their own food prep. 
- The Webelos did most of their own cooking with active support of their parents.
- The Bears worked with their parents to make food
- The Wolves stirred pots, put ingredients in, etc.
- The Tigers flipped pancakes.

Some dens did a better job of this than others.  My son's den leader was a fantastic guy who spent several den meetings teaching my son (a Bear at the time) to cut, cook on a stove, etc.  Other den leader's didn't really understand how to challenge their boys, so they got less out of it.

The first time we did it, it was a great experience.  The second time was pretty good.  The third time a disaster.  

By the third time, nonsense adult politics crept in.  One den leader was ill prepared and kept having to borrow food from other dens.  Of course scouters are friendly, but when kids started showing up at the other dens areas saying - "I'm hungry", it got a little ridiculous.  The den leader who was the most organized took advantage of the fact that other den leaders didn't read emails and kinda horded the pack gear.  Yet another den leader sat in his area and was sniping about the Webelos leader all weekend. 

That was the last time we did that

@MattR Good question.  No, they didn't set these.  I do see where you're going with it and think it's a great idea.  If I had my way, we'd operate more like you describe.  I could fill a whole thread on our woes.  In short though, our Scoutmaster corps doesn't really understand how to grow you in the way you describe.

We've got more of a Webelos 3 approach.  During the skills development portion of our meetings, the ASMs of New Scouts works with the Troop Guides to have some sort of development program.  Usually it's something rank related - but not always.  I think of our approach a little like a cruise.  The ASM is the Cruise director and has a series of fun activities each week.  While the boys are not doing those, they work as a patrol to do other things.  It's not close to perfect, but it's what we've been doing.

Yes & No.

I'm suggesting a second, alternative course in addition/as an alternative to Wood Badge.  In fact, I'm fine with Wood Badge as the leadership course.  To me, Wood Badge is the leadership course for Committee Chairs, Cubmasters, Scoutmasters, etc...  I think it does a fine job at that.   I've been a staffer twice and really like Wood Badge - but I see it for what it is and is not.

Wood Badge is clearly not a course on how to be a Scoutmaster.  How to mentor the SPL, how to organize patrols, how to organize campouts, how to promote boy led, etc...  I could go on and on.  I can recite the Stages of Team development in my sleep, but I can't tell you how to make patrols work in my troop.

In my council, Wood Badge is done very well.  At the heart of it is a staff that are all very professional about their roles.  More importantly, each member of the staff really, really works hard to do a great job.  For Wood Badge, being a Scoutmaster really doesn't matter - so the staff selection here doesn't really focus on that.  The staffs end up being a mix of positions and programs.  If anything, the staffs are generally composed of very good leaders who really strive to deliver an outstanding training.  The one thing we do have is a very methodical process for finding good staff.  Existing staff all share insights on participants.  This is then used to help find the new 1/3 of the staff every year.  

In my mind, the separate Scoutmaster course I'm suggesting would be different and would be staffed with the best Scoutmasters.  I could see much the same process.  Some key people put together a Scoutmaster curriculum, great Scoutmasters are recruited to review it, refine it, and teach it.  You make it a worthwhile course, so staff are willing to continue year to year.  You rotate in some new staff so that there is a development process that continues to challenge & grow the staff.  Come up with some kind of mentoring program after the fact new Scoutmasters have someone to talk to as they grow in their own positions.

After the adjustment in requirements a year or two back, I thought 18 months to First Class is the new number.  Not sure if that's national or just our take.

I really don't mind an 18 month journey to First class:
Scout - 1 month
Tenderfoot - 3 months
Second Class - 9 months
First Class - 15 months
That all seems like a pretty leisurely pace to me.

4 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Another reason, IMHO, that the Order has lost its interest.  When it truly was not simply something you could get into by becoming First Class and doing a bit of camping, while staying on the good side of the adults, it actually was an honor.  Now the mystique is gone, and it is simply something else to take up your time in too many lodges, and participation is generally sash and gone for the majority.  There are still some lodges that have managed to keep some of the deeper interest, but not in our area.  Ceremonies are not only no longer really semi-secret, but most of them are read from scripts, often obviously not even pre-read, and regalia is minimal.  For the past few years, I have spoken to all the technically eligible scouts and point blank asked them if they really care to elected, and if so will actually go to the Ordeal and give it a try afterward.  There is no point in calling them out if they are not going to follow through.  But we still do elections, and have a few members occasionally get more involved for a time.

Yep - like many things in Scouting, I think the OA has lost it's luster because the people in it have stopped giving it luster. 

One can't be entrusted with the OA in your district, phone it in, and expect it to be a great program.  I think many havn't gotten that message.

8 hours ago, MattR said:

Another way to make @Col. Flagg's point is that the training is so vague as to be pointless. The training could be tightened up and focused to what's important. The idea of having some concrete examples from which a SM could start from would be much better than a discussion on leadership. I went to visit a troop this week and the SPL was leading the troop. Unfortunately all the scouts just sat there and the adults made presentations. You could call that boy led because the SPL was the MC. Boy led but boys bored.

The BSA's fundamental flaw in training is that they assume basic training is sufficient.  It is not.  

The fundamental problem with all of this is that the program is too complex to be understood in a basic training.  Look how much time we spend around here talking about patrol method and boy led.  It's ridiculous that every troop does this a different way.  

For the BSA to really fix this, they need to either:
- reduce the complexity of the program
- develop a real Scoutmaster training.  To go to SM training, you should have been an ASM for a while and understand the basics well.  Like Wood Badge (I duck as I write this),  the staff  needs to be pulled from those Scoutmasters that really understand the program.  This should be followed up by a mentoring program.  Take those experienced Scoutmasters and have them mentor the new Scoutmasters.  

We did Universal once.  

We spent a day driving there, stayed at a local campground.  Got up the next day and did the park.  Stayed late, had dinner at the park, and then went back to camp.  Next day we packed up and went home.  It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't crazy expensive like when my family stays in the park at one of the resorts.  It seemed to work pretty well.

I've got a couple of teenage kids.  They seem more interested in Universal than WDW.  I love WDW, so it pains me to say that.

I love the concept of Venturing.  Honestly though, I'd be okay with it going away.  As a movement, Scouting in America just doesn't seem to know what go do with it.

If it goes, I'd like to see a focus on improving the Boy Scout program for the 15-18 year olds.  The elements are all there, but far too many troop see their older boys get bored by the same thing year after year.