Mike F

RE: "The dirt Scouter gets offended when a policy affecting him is made by some big dog in Dallas who may not even own a uniform." I have met several of the big dogs at National and have been told by each of them independently that everyone in the office also serves as a volunteer at the unit level. There's still plenty of room to get frustrated by their decisions.

Moving toward more boy-run is a constant process of adjusting and re-adjusting -- more art than science. Coaching and mentoring the youth leadership - esp the SPL - is the number one job for the SM. And there's a re-set after every election/selection cycle. In general, we work with our new senior boy leadership (SPL and sometimes ASPLs) away from other boys every week to help them understand what they need to do, give them ideas, get them talking about challenges, etc. Most SPLs soon catch on and take off running. A few struggle the whole way through, but they all grow from the experience and that's why we get paid the big bucks. If guys aren't used to having SPL and other youth running the meeting, coach SPL before the meeting so he's prepared, then stand fairly close to him while he nervously leads things. As he gains confidence over time, start working your way to the back of the room and eventually into the next room. In ways, it's a lot like teaching a kid to ride a bike without training wheels. At first, it takes a firm hand to keep them upright and out of the ditch. As they start to get the hang of it, you can relax your grip. Eventually they give a shout and peddle away on their own faster then you can run. You still shout instructions from the sidewalk for a bit, then go inside for a quick prayer and cup of coffee.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Dale, If your guys are new to DO cooking and you're pushing them to give it a try, consider giving them a fairly simple recipe and all ingredients for something like chili and cornbread or a pot pie (with ready-to-cook crust). If they have experience, you might run it like an Iron Chef competition. Tell them the troop will provide meat and they need to be ready to prepare whatever they are given. Then get each patrol a brace (2) of cleaned but intact rabbits. Another option is whole chickens, but not as much fun. We have a cooking competition at almost every campout. PLC usually sets a theme along the lines of Holiday Feast, Hawaiian, Mexican, Chili Cook-off, etc. Winner gets to hang the coveted Golden Spoon on their patrol flag staff until the next competition. Have fun!

I don't usually read or comment in this section, but got my attention. First, Merlyn, 1000s of scientists would chime in together if it meant more grant money coming their way. I work in the technology world and there is an amazingly consistent "group-think" mentality when it comes to money. Second, in recorded human history, we have seen long-term big changes. One of the most striking is the fact the Vikings had very successful settlements in Greenland when it was experiencing a long period of warmth. Ice had retreated and coasts were green and productive for many years. The ice later spread back to the coast and forced them out. This was long before the internal combustion engine started spewing CO2. IF it is man-made (AGW) and IF it is primarily due to us pulling buried carbons out of the earth and re-releasing them into the atmosphere as CO2, then nothing will change unless we stop pulling oil, gas, and coal out and burning them. A little bit of conservation will only reduce the price of a barrel of oil by a few pennies and someone else will buy and burn them cheaper. Yes - we should conserve and should be working on other energy ideas. But today's economy and standard of living depend on the energy supplies we have right now. There are way too many big IFs in the AGW story - especially as it relates only to CO2 and not other possible causes which have potential to be bigger part of the problem. The Earth has always been changing. We would be a lot better off if we concentrated our scarce dollars on figuring out how to cope with the changes.

Crossramwedge, Lisabob and John-in-KC nailed it. I had missed point you are the COR. You and the organization you represent have not just the authority, but the responsibility, to approve/disapprove (including revoke) membership in the troop you sponsor as you believe is necessary. This decision is ideally reached jointly with SM and CC, but you have the authority to act unilaterally because your organization owns the troop. You are acting responsibly when you make a decision to revoke membership for just cause. The only appeal process beyond you (COR) is via the Institution Head (IH) or top boss of your Charter Org. There is no appeal to Council or National. If a CO no longer wants a member to be part of the troop they sponsor, it's a done deal. Just document the rationale for the record. Here's something to get you started: "Over the last x months, Billy Jones has been counseled several times concerning his negative attitude and misbehavior. This information was shared with his father, Mr. William Jones, at the same time. Within the last 2 months, Billy has been explicit with adult and youth leadership within the troop that he did not want to continue in scouting. On Saturday, December 12, 2009, Billy was apprehended by city police in the process of vandalizing a vehicle owned by another senior scout in the troop. Due to Billys clearly expressed desire to no longer continue in scouting and his recent attack on the property of one of our members, we are hereby terminating all rights of membership in Troop 123 sponsored by ___. Good luck, friend. This is tough. Think of it as conducting surgery to cut out a cancer before it spreads and kills the body.

Agree 100% with others - this is no longer a problem for the youth to decide. Beyond shadow of doubt, the boy wants out. Since his words and actions within the troop haven't accomplished his goal, he has gone into attack mode on personal property and the police are involved. If this was some other bone-headed thing that kids sometimes do which gets out of control and gets them into trouble, we'd be talking about how to convince this scout he is expected to live up to our values (Oath & Law) at all times. That's not what happened. Boy wants out, but adult (dad) is pushing for him to stay. Troop adult leadership needs to work this with adult dad. There needs to be a meeting of adult leadership immediately. I think this would be grounds for total removal of membership. If you don't want to do that, recommend minimum of 6-month suspension with provision that he will only be allowed back after that time if he clearly expresses a strong personal desire to be back in the program and troop. Make it clear to dad that HIS desires don't count - SON has to want to be there, or no deal. The fact that any punishment phase might eliminate this scout's opportunity to make Eagle is irrelevant. This boy has made his desires very clear and has made his own choices. Scouting is not all about making Eagle, otherwise we would have failed with the 96% of scouts who do not earn the right to call themselves Eagle Scout. This boy presumably enjoyed and benefitted from the program for a few years, but had other interests and wanted to move on. He probably could have done so with some fond memories and a future pang of regret at not staying the course, but his parents engaged with unhealthy expectations and demands. Now it has turned into a power struggle between father and son which will leave bitter memories forever. This is a classic tragedy. It's time to end it so this boy can move on. Your troop needs to understand this is not an issue between the boy and the rest of the troop. This is an issue between the boy and his father. You guys need to get out of the middle of it. The boy is the member in the troop, not dad. If the boy clearly wants out, then adios and sincere best wishes - we'll save a seat at the campfire for you if you want to come back. Sorry dad - he's a big boy and has made his decision - you guys need to work this out yourselves.

I'm with Lisabob - an intentional attack on a brother scout's property is grounds for suspension or dismissal. Based on your post the end of October, this young man wants out and he's going to keep acting out in worse ways until someone grants him his wish. It doesn't happen often, but I have encountered scouts who we couldn't turn around. After working with them for a period of time, I have volunteered to talk to the parents to encourage them to let the scout leave. Usually they are gone for good and we hope they enjoyed and benefitted from the time they had in scouting. On one occasion, the young man took a year off, cooled off, came back on his own accord. We now call him Eagle Scout.

asichacker, First off, you're probably doing the right thing by mostly keeping quiet and observing, because a Boy Scout troop is a different kind of program and it's this difference that has the potential to be life-changing. It takes a while to understand how things work. As a coach who has had to deal with parents who think they can do your job, you have a good understanding of the situation you're in because this IS a diffent kind of game. In the troop medium-size troop I serve, we have only had one step-dad that I know of, but there could have been more because it's mostly irrelevant. This step-dad was a huge asset to the program for all the boys and enjoyed the time sharing adventures with his son. (I intentionally didn't say "step-son", because he didn't.) We never have parents sharing tents with boys, so I wouldn't know if there is some bizarre twist in that rule. My brother is also a step-dad who has jumped in to help provide a great program for the sons he loves. The only problem we've ever had with family situations was in divorced families when the bio-parents turned scouting participation into a battle ground. The boy loses every time. Please believe me - your biological status with your son is not an issue and this program can be a fantastic opportunity for you to help your son (and his buddies) grow into responsible, productive adults. Others have recommended getting involved. If you like the outdoors at all, go on some campouts as soon as possible and find some friends amoung the adults. I've found that the late-night cup of coffee by the campfire is the best place to learn their philosophy. We can't jump to this conclusion, but it's very possible your situation and observations have little to do with your parental status and have much more to do with observing a program which is not completely healthy and on-track. You may be a great coach, motivator and leader with a multitude of insights on how things could run better, but it's a volunteer organization and everyone there has to be presumed as doing their best. You have to work your way into their confidence and really understand the lay of the land before they will readily accept everything you have to offer. Roll up your sleeves and get in the game. Study the Boy Scout handbook and Scoutmaster's Handbook, while recognizing the gritty details of execution aren't always as clean as the pictures and aren't intended to be. Go ahead and start taking the available training to help you get on the same page as other leaders. Much of the initial stuff is on-line. I encourage you to take the Scoutmaster's Fundamentals course (typically 8 hours on a Saturday) and the Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (a full-weekend course where you will work as a Patrol with other adults). As you learn more about how the program is supposed to work and get to know the troop (boys and leaders), you will find places where you can help make things better. For example, perhaps you have leadership skills from your place of work where you lead and manage a team. You might find out the Scoutmaster is frustrated by the process of conducting semi-annual troop leadership training and you can help him by putting together a good workshop using BSA materials and your real experience. (Just keep it scaled down for 13-17 yr olds!) Enjoy the ride!

Eagle732, Absolutely - tailor your PORs for your troop. If you don't have enough for a scout to learn and grow filling a position, don't fill the position. It doesn't help him mature and it just causes confusion. As you say, if the troop grows or you find a real need for a Historian, things can change. No problem. By the letter of the SM Handbook, you can also set requirements or prerequisites for positions. Exactly where depends on your troop demographics, but you could probably set 2nd or 1st Class as a requirement to be PL. In another thread, I discuss the importance of not meddling in PL elections. Since this is part of the SM HB, I dont consider it obtrusive or meddling at all. Its an optional part of the program that works for many. Its a nit, but I would also eliminate the term needing/needs a POR from your language. Theres no such thing. He (or his parents) might want him to get a POR so he can meet an advancement requirement, but its not a need (like food, shelter, etc.). If its a need, then its up to everyone to help fulfill the need. If its a want, its up to the scout to step up to the plate to get elected or selected. If they wont display their desire to get a POR by being dependable, positive, etc., then let them sit it out. When they figure out nobody is going to give them anything, they will eventually get hungry and get in the game. I also strongly recommend a written contract at the start of each POR signed by scout, his immediate leader (SPL, ASPL) and SM. Train him in the job, coach him toward success, give him assistance along the way, but ultimately hold him responsible. If he doesnt fulfill the contract, he doesnt get credit for rank advancement. Make sure parents have a copy to avoid problems. Keep scout (and parents) informed if scout is not on track toward success. This up-front work will save TONS of heartache and bitterness later. And ultimately helps the scout grow much better, which is why were here.

Once upon a time in the troop I serve, everything was run from the top and the PL job was little more than making phone calls and leading a discussion on campout menus. (I.e., Troop Method) It was pretty common for the older boys to dodge the work. We started focusing more on patrol competitions and independent patrol activities on campouts and things changed a lot. They dont have any extra perks in the job, but we spend a lot more time coaching/training them and they know they are key members of the leadership team. The job now means something and success is important to them, so there is stiff competition for the leadership job. Guys who prove themselves dependable in the patrol and have a good attitude get elected. This is not always the oldest. Since there are no term limits, good leaders tend to get elected to successive terms until they get elected/selected for Senior Staff (SPL/ASPL). A couple of times I have quietly recommended a PL not run for re-election after serving multiple terms in order to give the opportunity to one of the older boys who had never been elected to step up and grow. In both cases it was a mistake. I will never meddle in patrol leadership again. There have been other cases where a scout felt like he was trapped behind a good leader and would never get his chance. Our advice has been to work hard, demonstrate good attitude/skills, and prove to the patrol he could always be depended upon. This produced much better results than adults pushing good leader out of the way to force the opportunity for another scout. The same philosophy holds true for the top spot SPL. He is trusted with developing and running our troop program as well as carrying on our tradition of excelling at the troop level in District/Council events. While older guys used to dodge SPL, now they are engaged all the way to age 18. Dont get me wrong not every single older scout is energetically engaged in pursuing line leadership. For some, it takes more years of maturing and a few never step up. We work with them in other staff positions (when selected by SPL) to help them grow as they are able.

SPL usually only comes after 6-month planning conference to update TC on plans and so TC can look ahead for required support. I give TC quick report on how the program side is going. This includes an overall report, including many positive things, but always tell them about any current issues we're working in leadership development, discipline, advancement, etc. By getting the Troop Committee on board with our approach to working challenges, they have been great at helping when parents raise questions.

Stosh, It sounds to me like he intended to recruit and lead a patrol, but he had no patrol members. If no patrol members, he was not a Patrol Leader. The signature in his book giving him credit is invalid. This isn't being mean or unfair. It's in the boy's best interest to experience the growth of his first successful leadership/responsibility experience. Work with him and help him find a path forward. If this continues on to BOR, it is certainly appropriate they find he has not met the requirements and you get some feedback about tweaking a portion of the program you deliver. You should let the BOR know about this issue before they begin. At a minimum, I would let scout know the BOR was probably going to disapprove his advancement and offer him the opportunity to postpone the BOR.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

jeff-o, Congrats! Sounds like things are working great!! Key at the unit level is doing exactly what you did by setting the expectation you were going to camporee. But overall success of camporee makes it sound like more good things are happening -- Tell us more!!! Events, overall theme, favorite part, etc.

OGE, You found the reference needed! I'd like to point out another quote from it: "The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names." Candidate has done his part by providing references, greasing the skids, and perhaps delivering reference letter requests (council discretion). Since national prohibits the candidate from making follow-up contacts, it's up to the adults. Theoretically this could be done at Council or District level, but Troop Advancement Chair, Committee Chair, or Eagle Advisor are very common. Try to avoid blow-up over rule details and just get the letters in the next couple of weeks. Yes, phone calls technically probably legal, but I don't think you're local crowd is going to take that without more delay. Instead make the point crystal clear to references that this does not have to be extensive. Like Eamonn said - short and sweet - "Dave is a good kid who I believe lives up to the ideals of Boy Scouting as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law. One example I have observed is when he...." Second sentence is optional.

We have gone to single camporee in the Spring. This has its own challenges because it's 1-2 months after mass Webelos crossover, but we make it work. We are discussing moving toward Gold/Silver/Bronze type system for recognizing patrols, but also recognizing the top 3 places in every event and the top overall troop. Green patrols are scored and ranked differently than older patrols. When running the events, if it's obvious a patrol is clueless, we turn it into more of a teaching opportunity. Their score will reflect this, but at least they can have some fun and get something out of it. We tried having 3 sets of scoring criteria (Green/Regular/Venture patrols), but had few Venture patrols competing and their skills we almost all below the other "regular" patrols, so it didn't make much sense to add to overhead.

Dave, First off, welcome to the virtual campfire! We need to stock up on plenty of firewood and put another big pot of coffee on the fire. This chat could go on until dawn. Its a complicated and controversial situation. Ill throw my top ideas out to get things started. Others are going to disagree. Scoutmaster expectation. Something I stress is that of course we support the District/Council program. If PLC wants to take it up for a vote, were going to do a lot of talking and Im not sure I would overrule them, but I try to avoid it by just staying positive about the fact were going. Not everything is a PLC vote. We dont have a vote on going to summer camp of course were going to summer camp. We just work on the where and when. Fear of Failure. Guys dont like to go out in public and look bad. They embarrass themselves when they enter competitions with other guys from the community and suffer from combination of poor leadership or weak skills. You can see them slinking away from an event they just bombed, trying to make a joke of it, or deciding to spend the afternoon in campsite because this stuff stinks. What contributes to this? a. Patrol structure. In our District, the consistent winners use the old-school mixed-age patrols. Stronger natural patrol leadership seems to help the patrols succeed in competition. These patrols some of whom have been around for 10-20 years or more have a strong spirit which shows. b. Skill programs in troops. Some troops have great skill advancement classes for rank, but dont incorporate hard-core skills into their ongoing program, so retention and confidence are really low. Ive seen countless patrols struggle to do a simple 3-leg compass course just like the one that was done the last 8 years. c. Expectation in Troop. Directly related to above, some troops dont expect the older guys to know and use their skills. Ive heard leaders say Camporee was really only for the T-2-1 scouts. d. Too few scouts & temporary patrols. It really shows when a competition patrol has been put together with pieces of two or more patrols. These guys almost always struggle. I think a patrol with just 3-4 members should compete as a patrol. At least theyre with their buddies and they should be commended for being in the game. e. Lack of preparation by Troop/Patrols. Some troops use camporee as an opportunity to refresh their skills and intentionally prepare for the competition. They do great not just in the events, but in the overall spirit. You can tell the guys have been working at improving their skills and teamwork and theyre excited to come put it to the test. The other guys who just show up and struggle through the events arent having any fun at all. If guys have been working toward the camporee competition and are excited about it, you dont have attendance and temporary patrol problems, either. f. Lack of preparation by Camporee staff. If you want to give troops the chance to work the skills into their program, start working early to let them know what the events will entail. Well organized events/camporee make you want to come back for more. Must have dynamic speakers for campfire, awards ceremony, etc. Fast and Funny are crucial! Get buy-in from leaders at Roundtable. Have discussion about how the successful troops prepare. Theyre not trade secrets we all benefit. Im going to finish up with a different story about how PLC can influence for the better. A few years ago, our PLC (with a little nudging from me) decided they were tired of getting thumped at camporees and it was time to do something about it. They put together every camporee competition event they could remember and started running patrol competitions on many campouts and troop meetings. Patrols know ahead of time, so they can practice at patrol meetings (separate from troop meetings). After they went through every permutation they could remember of the fire-building, compass course, first aid, knots, lashings, etc., they started coming up with their own. In a short time, these guys went from reluctant participants into fierce competitors. Now they cant wait for the next camporee. Not just to square off against our sister troops, but to establish bragging rights within the troop for top patrol. As always, your mileage may vary.

The troop I currently serve has never used Duty Rosters. PL is in charge and he makes sure everyone is engaged. This is part of his leadership. Everything goes quicker with all available hands involved. PL generally leads by example, yet provides opportunity for guys to take more responsibility for leading cooking, etc., as they get experience. If any boy attempts to dodge the work, feedback from the rest of the patrol is pretty clear.

DC, Too much for me to reply in one note. Keep reading - there are tons of great ideas in these threads. And you'll see common themes reappear over and over. Many of us have different approaches and will argue energetically for ours. One thing I know for certain, the boys have to want to be involved. A little pressure is OK, but if you turn up the screws too hard (via scout spirit or leadership requirements), they'll just leave. Biggest thing is adjusting the expectation. I have literally heard multiple Scoutmasters say they didn't expect their high school guys to make many meetings or any campouts. I quote, "They have done their time. Now we give them the freedom to just work on their Eagle." What an incredible mistake. Send me a PM if you'd like to talk some time.

Right on, Beav!

BSA certainly has no such rule and I've never known a troop to have in internal one. (Not even the Air Force troop I once served.) I've also never seen a scout transfer in and win an election to SPL or PL a week later. The dynamics with most troops - even military-sponsored troops where there are lots of transfers - just won't bring a new guy into the group fast enough for that to be likely. It's possible a new guy, who immediately makes a strong positive impression, might convince the new SPL to select him for one of the other staff jobs (instructor, etc.), but not a certainty. Most SPLs want to know their staff selections are ready to step up to the challenge of the job. Part of this depends on the age/rank structure of the new incoming scout and new troop. If he's an older 1st Class Scout coming into a young troop, he'll find his opportunities quickly. If he's a young 1st Class and the new troop has lots of older guys who are actively engaged in the numerous positions, he's going to have a tougher time proving to them he's ready. What's the situation here? Assuming he doesn't find himself holding a position immediately, there's plenty he can and should be doing. First off, jump in and get active in everything the troop is doing. Have a positive attitude, make friends, have fun camping, get to be known as a good guy who knows how to have fun and how to work hard. He can start working on Merit Badges and getting those in the bag. If he's really a fast burner, he'll have made an impression and won't have any trouble getting elected or selected for PORs from here on out. He'll be planning an Eagle Project before you know it and the few months waiting for that first POR will be irrelevant.

Crossramwedge - I'm glad you got District involved. Good plan to have scout make up the POR he missed for Star. This isn't punishment - it's giving him the opportunity to grow through the experience. But be careful here. Adults don't put him in any POR. He's either elected to be PL/SPL, or he's selected by SPL for a staff job, or he's assigned a leadership project at the discretion of his SM (and there's no requirement for SM to use this method - I don't). This scout has not been elected. If SPL doesn't want him on his leadership team until he's had an attitude adjustment, this scout can cool his heels for a while. That's part of the growth experience, too. It may do him a world of good. I've personally worked with a scout with an attitude who hung around on the edges, refusing to support the troop program, and waiting for someone to hand him a POR patch for over 2 years. This POR was the only thing standing between him and Eagle. He refused to run for PL. No SPL would touch him. Finally, at 17, he turned around, started participating in meetings and going on campouts. At 17 yrs 3 months, he was elected as PL -- his first job with significant responsibility. The young man was amazing and had a blast. At 17 yrs 9 months, he asked for permission to run for PL again, even though he would be "aging out" before the term was up. His patrol re-elected him in a landslide. His parents were mad at me for two straight years for "standing in his way," then completely flabbergasted at the change when he woke up and came to life. The program works, but sometimes you have to have thick skin. Being nice wouldnt be doing the scout any long-term favors. Lisabob's idea to use written expectations is golden. Send me a PM if you'd like to see the ones we use. And there's no requirement for a troop to use all possible PORs. We don't have troop Librarian, Historian or Bugler positions.

Bryan, I think were agreeing on a lot. I am the MB Gatekeeper, but I try to be a thinking, benevolent gatekeeper. For BOR, totally agree they cannot retest. But they should ask detailed questions which reveal insights into how things were accomplished. Tell us about the menu you planned for your First Class patrol cooking requirement. How did you work out the shopping list? Did you have enough to eat? Etc. I will admit during SM Conf I will sometimes bust their chops a little maybe toss them a rope or ask a first aid question. Not as a criterion for passing, but just to keep them on their toes. Dont start yelling the emphasis is more on them. Well spend a lot more time talking about the last time they were offered drugs than we will on recalling first aid knowledge.

MDScoutMom, This is awesome! Amazing vision and drive - I love it! Look forward to links from your local news. And have a feeling we may see you all at Centennial Jamboree next summer.

We just set up an account using www.mytroop.us. Our TC researched several options and decided on this one. Has public and password-protected areas.

Bryan, I agree totally on immediate sit-down with SM and CC to explain expectations to meet the Scout Spirit requirement. Its another good idea to bring in the problem scouts immediate supervisor(s) in the chain of command. If he is a member of patrol, then his PL should be consulted. If he holds (or has held) another staff position, then SPL/ASPL should be consulted concerning his attitude and performance. SPL, of course, is always top dog in these discussions. Just be sure to include lower-level leaders, if appropriate. I tell parents the same thing thanks for the information, I look forward to hearing from Billy. Im going to disagree about some of the other points though. One of the purposes of the BOR is to determine if the requirements have been properly completed. If the BOR determines a requirement was not completed properly, they most certainly can and should give the scout instructions on what must be done or redone before coming back again. Then the BOR needs to talk to SM to let him know about a weakness in his advancement program. This is an important part of the checks and balances in the program. ghermanno is right: SM is the gatekeeper for the MB thats why they put that signature block on the Blue Card. Heres an example of this discretion in action. I just advised a 12-yr old scout, who wanted to start Personal Management MB, to start with something else. Right now, the boy gets an allowance for spending money and parents give him money to pay directly for everything from daily school lunch, to clothes, to Christmas shopping. He doesnt get paid for chores, have any other income or fiscal responsibility. In my opinion, hes not ready to benefit from this merit badge. I told him that, reviewed his list of MBs, and recommended another one. Scout seemed happy. Then I had a quick chat with his dad to let him know son would benefit much more from this MB in a year or two when son had more responsibility for handling his own money, so he had a better understanding of the concepts involved. When dad heard a few of the detailed requirements, he agreed. I understand there's a gray area here. If scout (or dad) had pushed back for some reason, I would have listened and maybe changed my mind. But I know my scouts pretty well and use that to help guide them toward success.