Mike F

Ken, Beautiful! We don't (yet) sing. Every camp night (with or without fire) closes with "Thorns & Roses".

Right on! This is the time of year it flares - right after crossover. There's an experienced leadership team in place who have a shared vision and have developed working relationships over many years. New parents - especially the former successful motivated Cub/Web leaders - come aboard all excited about moving up, too. (And it's about the time we're rushing to compete in Spring Camporees and get ready for Summer Camp.) We want and need your help, but please wade in slowly to minimize the waves which could swamp the boat!

Our SPL usually gives a quick verbal status report at beginning of TC meeting. He also highlights upcoming events which require special support from the TC. Uniforms optional -- I'm just glad to get them to attend. As others have said, I see this a valuable way to increase their adult interaction in a different venue. If CC requested written report from SPL one month early, as the SPL's "boss", I would tell CC no. SPL has better things to do.

I've had trouble in this area, so now try to hand-pick (invite) leaders as the concept of trip is starting to gel. Sometimes you do have to tell an adult their volunteer services are not required for this event. The length and stress of a challenging HA trip are such that some good folks are not well suited. I've had long discussions about these types of things with the management at Philmont. They expect the units to be sending crews who are prepared to be successful. There are minimum physical requirements which they verify, but are not in a position to judge whether an adult (or youth) is really up to the challenge. That's why we in the units get paid the big bucks.

Mr. Boyce asked a few days ago about guarantees of future technology/payoffs worth the cost. Nope youll never get these guarantees which is exactly why this is the type of fundamental research and investment our government should be doing. No company can risk shareholders investments on such long-range speculation. In my mind, the Federal Government should be concentrating on things which only it can do, like national defense and NASA. I wouldnt get too worked up about the race to Mars. The moon is only 3 days away. Mars is about 8 months away and orders of magnitude more difficult, which will require a lot of new technology in systems (water, air, food) and medicine (radiation protection, bone/muscle strength, etc). These are long term projects with obvious spin-offs here. However, as of right now, all we have pointing us to Mars are some very generic words in a speech. There is no program or specific instructions behind the words. Just more words in a speech. As the echoes of these words fade away, the trickle of brilliant minds departing is accelerating. By the way, I wouldnt worry too much about us spending money in space, on the moon, or on Mars. All of our space-related money for the foreseeable future will be spent on Earth. Current NASA budget is less than of a penny from your tax dollar. Compared to the payback we get from most of the rest of that tax dollar, its a bargain. A sobering thought: The images of Apollo and todays images of Space Shuttle launches make profound statements around the world. Our space program is a symbol of our national power and technical prowess. It is surprising how often you can see these images on television and billboards in other countries around the world. America is big and it is bold and it does amazing things which others can only dream about. As we send the Space Shuttle Orbiters to museums and cancel the follow-on program, we cede human spaceflight to Russia and China. As an insult, we have to buy seats for our astronauts from the Russians in order to use the space station which was largely funded by US tax dollars and is only now shifting into full research utilization mode. Its looking more and more like America is willingly stepping back to join our British brothers as former world leaders. As a nation, we are not going to like reacting to rather than shaping world events.

We split the SPL and ASPLs away from their "home" patrols about 6 years ago and have never looked back. They eat with adults and camp close by. This allows the typically younger PLs to run their patrols without interference. And it allows some great discussions with the Staff about how things are progressing, next activities, ideas for improvement, etc. As long as the Staff guys are busy running the campout, the adults will mostly take care of the cooking and cleanup for them. If they are getting lazy and hanging around, they get pulled into the dirty work.

Exibar, We have a single Golden Spoon which is awarded to the winning patrol for best cooking at the end of every campout. It has a leather loop which they use to attach it to their patrol flag. Staff are the judges. For the actual cooking, we do different things - usually establishing a theme for Saturday night dinner. It's been fun to watch them cook meals from "Spam Hawaiian" to "Holiday Feast". A few times we have done an Iron Chef competition where they brought stuff to prepare with an unknown meat. Then we hit an exotic food market and really surprised them. The guys enjoy this and it's a way of rewarding some effort in the kitchen.

2Cub, We ignore the entire concept of FCFY. Instead we give them a steady diet of fun, friends, and adventure and have a very low dropout rate, so we're keeping them in the game. We have Tenderfoot scouts who have been in the troop for two years and rarely miss an activity. Advancement is something they eventually wake up to. In most cases they have all but one or two 2nd and 1st Class requirements to complete, but just aren't interested. They will be. And it all works out fine. When they're ready.

AG Scouter, Yes - you read right. See: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/trainingmodules/boardofreviewtraining.aspx One of the primary purposes of the BOR is to ensure the requirements have been met. If they are not satisfied the scout has completed the requirements to the letter, they must send him back for more work. (Technically we're also supposed to let him know the avenue for appeal if he wishes.) Through this feedback mechanism, the Troop Committee members (via BOR) work with the Scoutmaster to identify any weaknesses in the program he administers. We cannot add to, nor take away from, any requirement. This should all be done with compassion and sensitivity, of course. It's not a grilling of every detail, but usually more of a sampling. When a weakness in the program is uncovered, you simply take a look at who doesn't understand the program. In the troop I currently serve, the PLs sign off on rank advancement within their patrol and they had become lax with this exact 1st Class requirement. We've had a chat with PLC about sticking to the requirements as written and let them know if a scout get bounced for not successfully completing a requirement, we're coming back to them to ask questions. Then I had a chat with Committee Chair about giving this requirement a little extra attention at BORs for a while until they all get the word. The checks & balances of this aspect of the BOR is an important tool for keeping the program on track.

Exibar, I don't mean to tip cold water in the cooking fire, but read those requirements very closely and think about what all they actually require. There is a lot of planning and preparation which goes way beyond just serving as patrol grubmaster and head cook. This particular requirement is the one I have historically seen trip up a Board of Review. When the BOR starts asking detailed questions about how the scout completed each of the steps and he can't answer, it's pretty obvious he didn't adequately complete the requirement. There's no hurry. Let him grow and learn.

SM absolutely does not work for the CC. They both work for the COR and have responsibility to jointly deliver the scouting program to the youth they serve. Misconception comes from a small note that when searching for a new SM, the troop committee is tasked with coming up with nominations. The Charter Org (thru the COR) hires and fires the SM. The Chartered Org is not obligated to select a candidate offered by the TC. If the TC drags their feet too long, the CO can (and should) appoint anyone they feel is able to lead. A little complicated, but very important to understand.

Amen, guys!

Eagle732, I've been quietly watching this thread for a year - hoping to understand what happened and how to avoid it. If this has been resolved, please let us know.

I sure would like to have seen the troops you guys served in action! Eamonn -- The level of commitment and time involved is amazing! I can't imagine boys with that much time these days, but it sounds fun! Barry -- Sounds like you had a strong vision and the energy to challenge/coach the scouts and leaders to meet it. Impossible to bottle, but I'll be looking to buy that book when you put it down on paper! Any other thoughts out there?

We've been through this discussion before. We teach respect at all times. Keep the phone (iPod, whatever) in your pocket during meetings. No phone calls unless emergency. No electronics in camp with one exception - we request the PLs and SPL keep their phones active. There have been cases where patrol was out on their own, needed help, and cell phone was fastest way to get it. It's true that cell phones don't work everywhere, but it would be almost negligent to prohibit them from carrying a device they already own which could save a life. I consider it to be a matter of using your resources.

Scoutfish, A troop I used to serve attempted something along those lines. We divided our 12 patrols into 3 Flights (A, B, and C). The patrol leaders reported directly to ASPL-A, -B, or -C instead of directly to the SPL. We had an ASM dedicated to working with each of the Flight ASPLs and PLs under him. SPL was still at the top directing the troop program. He had another ASPL or two to assist him and to handle the other staff positions. It seemed like a great idea and looked good on paper, but we were not able to make it work very well in practice. Your mileage may vary!

We've talked about when/why/and how one might go about limiting membership (capping) a troop. How about the other end of it? How do you enable the boys to effectively lead a unit with 100 or more members? How do you handle 20+ new scouts per year? How well do you do at keeping them in the program? General pros/cons?

Barry, I am a student of your writings and hope you help write our future training materials and handbooks. Seriously - the facility we are fortunate to use totally limits us in size to about 30-35 scouts. Equally seriously - I'm very happy about the facility limitation because this forces us to maintain size. I am very active at District and Council levels and am becoming more involved at National, so we get more attention than your average unit. Rather than burning energy trying to effectively double or triple our size, I prefer to work with other leaders to help them find ways to adapt some of the methods which have contributed to our success. Soul searching? You betcha. I hate the recruiting crunch. When we have someone visit who we (adults and PLC) sense is not a good fit, it's gut-wrenching to suggest to them that they should take a look at Troops A or B. So far, I think it's working out without alienating my neighbors. Like you - I love this scouting stuff!

WestCoast, Sounds about perfect to me! Keep getting out there - be outrageous - fun, friends, and adventure! Every boy has a personality. So does every troop. When there's a good match, everyone is happier. With 4 troops in your area, boys have the opportunity to find a good match, which means they are more likely to stay with the program.

Gutterbird, Tough challenge. Good job at addressing it up front. Another thing is to consider the nature of the troop they join. Some troops do mostly base (or car) camping and all stay close. Others frequently send the patrols out by themselves with no adult supervision in the immediate area. Your sons will not be a good match for the latter. As a leader, I get a medical briefing on each new scout and any time a scout has a change in condition. If he's on meds, we need to know what and why. Same for allergies, etc. This was a tough lesson learned after a new scout on powerful anti-psychotic drugs didn't take them one weekend. And we had no information in his medical forms about any of it because parent decided we didn't need to know. Now I'm very blunt about absolutely requiring this info. Be up-front and you'll find a way to make it work.

Due to physical size of our CO's facility, there's no way we can handle more than 35 scouts, hence the cap. There's a rumor than Baden Powell said the maximum troop size should be 32. Makes sense to me. I have served in troops with well over 3 times this many scouts and believe the medium-sized unit does a better job of delivering the program, but maybe that's just due to my own limitations. Now, back to my buddy, OneHour's, question: How do we cap it? First, we have no "feeder" pack, so no allegiance there. Second, we put out the word within the troop in Oct/Nov to make sure we know about any incoming brothers, neighbors, and best-friends-who-just-have-to-join. We ask these people to visit and fill out joining paperwork early. Then we know the number of open spots. Third, when people visit, we talk about our quirks so they know what we think makes us different. For some, its not a good fit and they keep looking. (For example, not interested in eating fresh rabbit) For the ones who like what they hear, its basically first-signed, first-joined. Forth, our area is blessed with a number of troops ranging from the Godzilla 165-member behemoth to others who are struggling to maintain their charter. No scout is deprived of the opportunity to join Boy Scouting if we dont have an opening. Fifth, when that distraught Webelos shows up late with his heart absolutely set on joining us after were full, we welcome his visit, then bring it up as a discussion in the post-PLC. The guys havent let me down yet and weve made room for that just one more.

Are you talking campsite gadgets or project lashing poles? You might check at local parks. Invasive non-native trees are a huge problem in this area and they LOVE for us to come cut down all we want. Not only are you getting poles for camporee, but you're doing a service project!

When I saw "Pranks", I was thinking dead garter snake in the chuck box. Good stuff. I might have been the one who put it there! Getting someone to drink a bottle of urine? Different ball game. Older boys are the ones who should be hammered. They are the leaders who are expected to set the example and they took advantage of the 11-yr old "trigger man".

Right or wrong, in our District the rule of thumb is 100 hours. No - it is not a requirement, but if you come in well under this expected number, the BOR will ask a lot more questions about the project. Although not perfect, it's been my observation that number of hours is pretty strongly correlated with leadership effort expended. We had good example recently. The project was marginal, but candidate insisted that's what he wanted to do. Then he failed to adequately plan, coordinate resources, and communicate. At the end of the work days, he fell far short of his plan and had logged only 35-40 hours total. Then he sheepishly expected us to sign his paperwork. Nope. Not due to inadequate hours, but because his lack of planning and follow-through showed he still didn't understand what it took to execute a completed project. With some more coaching and guidance, he pulled it together and crossed the line with pride.

Brent, Congratulations! You will indeed find things changing if you get so large (or bring in so many young guys at once) that your size exceeds the ability of your boys to run. I have supported a troop with 135 members. Never again. The troop which now calls me Scoutmaster is capped at 35 members and delivers a much stronger program with a very high retention rate and guys active all the way into college. I have heard rumor about large troops being effectively run by the boys, but have never seen it in person.