Mike F

Similar experience while son was about 13. I wanted him to be in Scouts and pushed a little too hard. Turned into a fight. Finally realized he really was stressed over too many commitments: Sports teams, intensive church confirmation program, advanced school classes, etc. Poor kid was worn out from the running and starting to resent any extra intrusions on his time. We talked to SM about taking a breather fortunately didnt have leadership position at the time. His attendance was sporadic for about a year I resisted temptation to push. After clearing up some of the other stuff and getting advances classes under control, hes back by his own free will and having fun. I also took him backpacking during down time both to show him what hes missing and to enjoy the experience even if not in scouts. Good luck!(This message has been edited by Mike F)

ozemu, Please forgive my boorish US-centric view widespread use throughout US is what I should have said Your comments about peer leadership and experience are on the mark. Same for troop size I cant think of any advantages to huge size. 48 is great. Thanks for keeping this thread alive. So far havent heard from anyone who successfully uses same-age patrols for the entire troop (i.e., not just for first year, or as an option to existing traditional patrols), but I still hope to.

Way to go, Mr. H! You didn't overrule the Scorps -- you just asked a simple question to help them see and address the real problem.

KL, Thanks for chiming in. Hadn't thought about philosophical continuation of Den structure - great analogy! IMHO, a change like this is a fundamental shift of the program and is beyond scope of PLC's authority. It's a boy-led program but SM is responsible for executing the program approved by CC.

sctmom, Some amount of chaos normal -- hope turned into learning experience for all. We use an older boy as PL for New Scout Patrols, too, for the first 6 months. But our SPL and SM hand-pick one of the sharper 13-14 yr olds with maturity, demonstrated skills and ability to teach. Parent's involvement is mixed blessing. They can keep an eye on their son, but do it from a distance. Sure son is going to make some mistakes and the leaders (hopefully PL) will call him down on it. Boy leaders will make mistakes, too, but that needs to be handled by the SPL, SM and his trained/experienced ASMs. Parent needs to stay out of the mix. Johnny already caught grief once - he doesn't need more from mom/dad. As far as where best to contribute, every good troop has a huge amount of work to do behind the boy-led scout skill scene. Equipment, advancement records, finances, camping permission, etc. You can be a blessing wherever you're willing to pitch in!

All, Thanks for lending your excellent insights and experience to this discussion! I had been led to believe that the use of same-age patrols beyond first year was in wide-spread use throughout scouting. I could have missed some, but sounds like Bob White is in the only troop that uses them for older boys and even they have a choice of same-age and mixed-age patrols. Is there anybody out there who uses them exclusively that can chime in? YIS, -mike f

CubsRgr8, You have every reason to be concerned. Concur with all -- sounds like there's a serious problem here. Especially concur with Bob White -- unless you have the expertise and energy to investigate and fix something that they apparently don't think needs fixing, run. There are other troops in area. Now you have a better idea of the kinds of questions to ask. Renewed search for troop will be confusing for your son. I recommend you spend some time investigating on your own or with another concerned parent. After you've decided on a troop or two that look more promising you can take boys to visit. If possible, go observe them for a while during a campout -- lots of insights you don't get hanging around a meeting room. Move quickly. Summer camp commitments are coming up and it would be a shame to miss out. Good luck -- you're on the right track! -Mike F Forgive me for being long winded, but thought I'd pass on a story related to retention that shows the difference one dedicated leader could make. My troop had an interim SM when I first joined as an 11-yr old and the bullies were out of control. I decided scouts wasn't what it was cracked up to be and dropped out after a few months. My former Webelos leader, now in another troop, heard about it and hunted me down to find out why. We talked. He was disappointed, but didn't say anything more right away. A few weeks later, he found me at the neighborhood pool and told me things were going to get better - I should give it another try. "No thanks - it's not for me" I resisted. For weeks the man seemed to have a radar out for me - always nudging me to go back. I finally relented and, lo and behold, the bullies were no longer there. Spirit of troop had changed dramatically. I went on to become an Eagle and Vigil OA member. Have been active in scouting through college, Air Force, and married life, until birth of second child made my wife lay down the law. (Seemed she had a problem with me going camping with other people's kids and leaving her at home with two of mine. Imagine! My kids couldn't grow up fast enough!) It wasn't until years later I learned that my Webelos leader had been working with our new SM to identify and fix the problems. And he had made several trips to my house to visit my parents when he knew I wasn't home. My parents didn't know much about the program and weren't inclined to try and talk me into anything. "Mike needs to be in scouts" he kept insisting. Moral of story: One determined man kept me from being a retention statistic and changed my life in the process. Each one of us can make that difference, too. God bless and good luck! YIS, mike f

Weekender, My boyhood scouting experience was very similar. PL tended to be a stable position because of maturity and rank structure. We also put a lot of effort into grooming the up-and-coming PLs with their progress being a frequent topic of discussion at PLCs. There are pros/cons to this and I don't want to start a fight about it, but a long-term PL became very effective at the job and felt a lot of ownership over his patrol. He was also held accountable for the advancement of his boys -- also a freq. topic at PLCs. Bob White, Sorry I wasn't more clear -- I do understand the concept of New Scout Patrols and associated support leadership/training. If I recollect correctly, this concept was started in the late 70s and has evolved since then. My son's large troop uses this and I've been helping. Can see where it would work for some, but not others -- no heartburn. But I do believe there is a difference between same-age and mixed-age patrols when you get above "New Scout" level. When the PL is a peer with no additional skills/wisdom above the rest and you rotate it around every 6 months, the leadership is shaky and it seems very difficult for the Patrol to really gel and gain a sense of direction. At least that's my observation from helping out in our troop for the last 2 years. I REALLY like what you said about giving the guys an option of staying with same-age group or moving into a Regular Patrol. What kind of Patrol mix (same age vs regular) have you evolved to? eisely, Concur about problems with monstrously large. It's a definite problem. We're blessed (& cursed) with a good reputation and the Webelos are beating down the door. Just had first shakedown campout exclusively for the new guys (27 in 3 patrols) and their older PLs (appointed by SPL for first 6 months), Guides, ASM, etc. And we have a waiting list of more that want in as soon as somebody drops. SM and Troop Council haven't been willing to take more drastic measures to reduce influx with so many that want in. We are having space problems and now undergoing negotiations with Charter Org (church) about more room. Space may force a change. I mentioned to SM last night that we may need to consider possibility of splitting into two still-good-sized troops. Facilities may drive the decision, but I think another good one is a troop this size is probably over the threshold of what boys can really run. Fortunately (or, maybe, unfortunately, because it's an enabler), we have lots of adult help. All -- thanks for the insights. I'm still interested in how we can alleviate the problems I see with all same-age patrols, but I'm going to make a run at the SM to see if he'd be willing to consider one or two natural patrols so guys would have a choice. YIS, mike f

Thanks for suggestions, slontwovvy! Please keep 'em coming, folks!! I was inactive in Boy Scouts for about 11 years. (Wife made me quit ASM job when second child, now the Boy Scout, was born... Couldn't wait to move up and get started again!) This same-age patrol concept wasn't around, or at least very common, then. Where did it come from? (Or should I start another thread??) Thx! mike f

Previous ideas are right on the mark. Most of the guys in school won't admit scouting itself is cool, but they're not as quick to slam some hard-core rock climbing or white-water rafting. For older boys, some supervised, but thrilling risk-taking is where it's at. And something for the younger boys to look forward to. (For some REALLY excellent insights into this, see Dr. James Dobson's newest book, "Bringing Up Boys.") We went through a bit of an in-house crisis a couple of years ago when my then 13-yr old son decided to rebel against me by dropping out of scouts. (Why couldn't he shave his head and get an earing -- I could deal with that!) While letting him back off on scouting for a bit, I took him backpacking in the Sangre de Cristos and dropped by Philmont Base Camp on the way home. It was a life-changing experience for him. We finally communicated on numerous levels and he found out the old man has a few interesting skills to share. He also had his eyes opened to the possibilities of lots more fun to come in the scouting program. By the way, I was careful to go easy on the discussions -- I wanted him to open up and not feel like he was trapped for a week. Slowly, the bits and pieces of his problems with troop program came out. Some were off-track whining, but a lot were very insightful. I passed these on to SM and we've been able to make some changes. We also made great progress in reconnecting as a father-son on many value issues, without distraction of sports, friends, mom, or brothers/sister. None too late as my boy goes blasting into the teens. My son would still probably rather go to school in his skivvies than a Boy Scout uniform, but he's having more fun in the program and doesn't care whether other kids think it's cool or not. YIS, Mike F.

Greetings, Scouters! I'm seeking some insight and stumbled onto this site -- most excellent! My son is in a large Troop (120+) that starts the guys out in "Green Patrols", which is OK for a starter, but they keep them together in these patrols forever. I'm concerned about the wisdom of this and it's affect on the basics of leadership, starting at the Patrol level. Although my 15-yr old son is relatively content, the same-age patrols really do not function well at all, in spite of a weekend JLT at the start of every 6-month term. I know he could benefit more from the scouting program and I'm distressed that he's well on the way to Eagle without really understanding the basics of real leadership, as opposed to same-age coordinator. Adult leadership says the boys are all more likely to become friends and stay with the program if they're all grouped together by age. I counter that the Patrol Leader is merely a coordinator since he doesn't have any more experience than any of the rest of the boys. PL has zero responsibility for advancement of the members in his patrol. In fact, even if PL happens to have advanced quickly to Star and one of his boys is lagging below 1st Class, the PL is not authorized to sign off on any of his requirements. It seems to me that the Troop is missing out on some of the fundamentals of leadership at the beginning level. And it shows through the weak performance we have had with leaders at the SPL level. We say the Patrols and Patrol Method are the backbone of the Troop, but the leadership experience as a Patrol Leader/coordinator apparently doesnt come close to preparing guys to exercise leadership over a large troop comprised of a wide-range of ages. The dynamics are just too different. In addition, the younger patrols flounder without internal expertise in basic scouting skills. We have Instructors to assist the patrols and Patrol Leaders, but this seems to make the PLs job harder when older boys have to keep stepping in to keep them on track. I am aware that our situation with same-age patrols is not unique -- that this model has been accepted at the National level. Has anybody seen this method work well? Any ideas how to fix current system? Or any ideas how to demonstrate to a bunch of well-meaning, but overworked (of course), adult leaders that the natural Patrol Method is the time-tested best? Any comments/suggestions welcomed either here, or directly to my email: mikemel@airmail.net. Thanks! Yours in Scouting, Mike F