Mike F

We recently held a car wash to raise money for a high adventure trip. We had some adults who are going on the trip show up to work and earn money for the trip. (Seems reasonable.) We also had some parents show up and work, then expected their "fair share" of the proceeds would go to their son - essentially giving that boy double what the others earned. (We obviously fouled up by not deciding on the method of sharing proceeds ahead of time. Won't make that mistake again!) How do others handle the sharing of funds in a case like this? Thanks in advance! Mike

I've heard that those non-slip rubber stickers (flowers, etc.) made for bathtubs work well, too, but have never tried it.

My son used one of these at camp this summer. Net from Army surplus store fit fine with enough left over at the bottom to keep mosquitoes from getting under, but there was a problem spiders lots of daddy long legs and others. They would crawl under the net and up inside. About drove him nuts until he moved the net to the inside of the frame (tied up the corners) and tucked the sides under his sleeping bag to form a good seal. Good solution! Good luck!!

It's a little bit off the wall, but I always ask them if they've ever encountered an emergency or life-threatening situation that put their Scout skills to the test. If they have, we talk about it for a minute. If they haven't, I promise them they will -- Scout Stuff is Real Stuff -- always be prepared.

I've seen the recommendation about using trash compactor bags before, but haven't noticed them for sale in local stores. Where do you find them?

All excellent points. Another I throw in is training them to be self-reliant. By teaching them skills and giving them challenging situations to overcome, they develop pride and self-confidence which has the potential to positively change their lives.

I stumbled into some unbelievably light-weight rain gear in local discount sporting goods store. Called Frogg Toggs. Has anybody used it? Does it stand up to abuse? Thanks in advance! -mike

kwc57, Great idea about working to get access to land which is about to be cleared. The only way to really practice survival skills is to indulge in a bit of what I call "High-Impact Camping." If your life depended on it, how would you build a shelter, etc.? With so much of our camping in established campgrounds, it's a rare opportunity. On the Gulf Coast, we're plagued by a rampant infestation of Chinese Tallow trees - non-native and very aggressive. We're starting to reach out to land owners with an agreement to cut down as many as we can while we're on their land. It sure cuts across the grain of all our training, but fact is, the tree is an invader and the native trees benefit when we take the tallows out. And you're right on with your original premise -- survival camping puts all the skills to work and it's a lot of fun. Make the object not just to survive, but to thrive, and watch the creativity taking off! By the way, we did our 3rd in a series of events tonight on advanced knots and lashings. Boys got into designing camp gadgets (pack rack, wash stand, table, etc.) and can't wait for the next campout. And the poles we're using? You guessed it -- Chinese Tallows from the field about to be cleared behind our meeting place. -mike

We noticed the same thing about knots about a month ago, so we're working on a knot refresher series right now. Led by Instructors -- we worked them off-line first to make sure they were up to speed. 1st Mtg -- By patrols, practiced basic knots: clove hitch, sheet bend, 2 1/2 hitches, timber hitch. For fun, we had them run the log-lift event: Gave them two ropes (diff thickness and each too short to use alone). They had to tie sheet bend, toss one end over horizontal beam, tie timber hitch on a short log, and secure it at least 1 foot off ground by tying clove hitch to a stake in ground. Each patrol timed. Added 5 seconds to time for every knot error. 2nd Mtg -- Reviewed square and diagonal lashings. For fun, we ran chariot races. Gave each patrol 3 poles (about 5-6 ft long) and 3 ropes. Had to lash into A-frame with Diag at top and two Sq lashings at bottom. As soon as it was lashed, one boy rode A-frame chariot while others dragged it around a course. First to get back to starting line wins. Tomorrow night -- will review sheer and round lashings. Then will try out some sample camp gadgets (wash basin in tripod, pack rack, etc.) I cant wait to see what they come up with on our next campout once we get the ideas flowing!

I stopped giving anything to United Way a couple of years ago. Now when United Way fund drive comes up at work, I simply write checks to troop and council, then tell them at work I've already contributed. I feel bad about the other good causes that won't get my support, but a good hard look at the list of things supported by United Way around here reveals a whole bunch I definitely do not want to support in any way.

I'll second the vote for Pecos Wilderness. I've made two trips into there once with an old Scout buddy and once with only my 13-yr old son. Great area with lots of variety and challenges. Don't be afraid to totally "roll your own". If you have a solid camping program, you can do this! Consider using some freeze-dried dinners (cheaper if bought in bulk on-line) and using simple oatmeal packets, bagels, peanut butter, sausage, etc, from the local grocery store to save costs. REI store in Albuquerque rents gear (packs, tents, sleeping bags, etc.), so boys dont all have to run out and buy them. I picked up a couple of books that will be very helpful: Pecos Wilderness Trail Guide Santa Fe and Carson National Forests. Published by Southwest Natural and Cultural Heritage Association, 6501 Fourth St., NW, Suite 1, Albuquerque, NM 87107 ISBN: 1-879343-19-3 Trail Guide to Geology of the Upper Pecos, Scenic Trips to the Geologic Past No. 6 Published by New Mexico Bureau of Mines and Mineral Resources, Socorro, NM 87801 I dont have the details, but another area to consider is in SW Colorado between Durango and Silverton. The narrow gauge train makes a stop on one of its northbound and southbound runs every day to drop off/pick up backpackers. Its a relatively challenging hike up a long canyon to area known as Chicago Basin. Surrounded by several 14,000 footers and absolutely spectacular. Main advice here is to start out very early (4-5am) if want to tackle a summit the afternoon thunderstorms can be dangerous when youre caught exposed that far above the tree line. We may see you in Canada this summer (July 9-17) and got lucky with Philmont slots for 04, but Im already thinking about taking the Philmont guys up to one of these areas in 05 to show them how they can enjoy this stuff for the rest of their active lives. No black powder rifles, burro races, etc.. Just the satisfaction of clawing your way up a ridgeline with very few other folks in sight and enjoying Gods creation spread out before you. It doesnt get any better than that! Again, with a bit of homework and preparation you can do this. Good luck! -mike f

Overtrained, Can you post the link to the web-based training? Does it include instructions on how to document that training completed? Thanks!!! -mike

Great ideas! Keep them coming!! We just had a camporee with a couple of unusual events: 1. Marble transfer. Two buckets - about 10 feet apart. About 10 pieces of PVC pipe - about 13 feet total. Scouts had to pass marble through all pieces of pipe to get it into the other bucket. Couldn't hold adjacent pipes at the joints. Graded on time and teamwork. 2. Not sure what they called this one -- had two 2x4s, about 10 feet long. Three ropes in each (near ends and middle). 2x4s placed side by side - patrol all stood on them, with a foot on each. Three boys held rope handles. Moved forward by coordinating which foot they would all lift together while the ones with rope handles lifted the board up. Maneuvered a simple obstacle course which included gentle turns and crossing a shallow hole. Other events I've seen in the past: 1. Coffee can (called nuclear waste or nitro) placed in the middle of large marked-off square. Small square marked in one corner of the big square. Boys can't enter the squares. Object is to move the can from center of big square into the "safe zone" (small square). (Or can use a box, bucket, etc.) Give them an assortment of ropes, rubber bands, poles (not long enough without sheer lashing), coat hangar wire, etc. Let them figure out how to get it done. 2. Tent set-up. Provide standard wall tent with ropes, but no tension devices so have to tie taut line hitches. Stack of stakes, hammer, etc. Run for time. Deductions for improper setup, mis-aligned ropes, knots, etc. 3. Survival shelters. Had one great camporee on some land that was scheduled to be cleared. Rare opportunity to practice some high-impact camping -- cut down whatever you thought you needed to build patrol shelters and camp tools.

Right on, with one exception (unless something has changed since the 2001 Scoutmasters Handbook): The troop determines the requirements, if any, for patrol leaders, such as rank and age. P 21 Troops may set requirements and these requirements may include rank and age and about anything else they deem important, as long as it doesn't violate other fundamentals. As an example of other, I've seen some troops successfully use participation records, too. The details of "if" and "how" depend completely on the makeup of your troop.

Hops_Scout, It would help to know more about the kind of camping you will be using it for -- mostly weekends, trails or rock-scrambles, cross-country ski camping, etc.? As far as growth, most external frame packs have the adjustability to adapt quite a bit. Internal frames in general aren't as forgiving and also more expensive.

I'm from the KISS school of backpacking and don't like the clutter of bags and hoses. Since I rarely hike alone, it's pretty rare for me to need to drop pack to grab water bottle -- that's what buddies are for. I liked FScouter's idea about length of cord with O-ring on bottle! I'll try that in Canada this summer!!

I store mine laid out flat under my bed. Only have to shake off the dust bunnies and stuff it in the bag before heading out the door. Sometime this winter I intend to sew an old sheet into a dust cover.

In addition to previously stated points about selecting adults for membership in OA: Larger troops can select more than 1 adult. Number depends on number of youth in troop. 0-50 boys --- 1 adult 51-100 boys --- 2 adults 101-150 boys --- 3 adults For OA purposes, you're a 'boy' until 21.

I agree with Pack38Scouter - must be a Houston thing. You don't really want a prepared visitation night -- it's best to see what they really do at their normal meetings. (Hopefully your son will see lots of activity and fun that he wants to be a part of. He doesn't want to sit in a side room and have people tell him about it - he wants to see it.) The Webelos AOL requirement says visit a Troop meeting -- it doesn't say visit a Troop orientation meeting for prospective new members. You can schedule an orientation meeting for boys and parents after they've seen the fun and decided to join.

friendlyduck, Thank you for bringing this up! The answers to Bob White's list of questions will reveal a lot. To his list, I would add: What did the Webelos do at the meeting(s) they visited? My younger son and his Webelos den went through this last year. At the first troop we visited, they sent the Webelos off into a separate room to have 2 of the boy leaders from Troop talk for an hour about all the stuff they would be doing. (Parents were in different room talking with SM.) It was not all friendly or encouraging. Sure, they talked about camping and all, but my son said they stressed how much different Boy Scouts was from Cub Scouts -- tougher, etc. Bored the boys listening to an hour of talking. After that night, none of the other boys had any interest in joining and wouldn't go visit another Troop. I persisted and dragged my now-less-than-enthusiastic son to a couple more Troops. Not as bad, but basically the same thing -- lots of talk and no action. Finally visited a Troop where they stuck him in a Patrol and he participated in the evening program. -- lots of action, little talk. What a difference!!! He insisted I stop by the Scout Shop to get the numbers he needed for his uniform because he was definitely joining that troop. With his encouragement, 3 of his Webelos buddys have since visited, 2 have joined, and we're working on more.

Last year we were #699 on the waiting list. Found out by dropping by Philmont Base Camp when on Troop ski trip to Red River at Spring Break. I suppose you could call in sometime in the next few weeks to find out earlier. Don't use the reservation line -- that's a commercial reservation outfit, not Philmont. Look for Philmont phone numbers on web sites. When at Base Camp, they told me they rarely get beyond the first hundred on waiting list. And, yes, they do get cancellations all the way up to the summer -- those who put down deposit money lose it. Got lucky this time and made it in after 1 hour of calling. June & July were already gone and they were filling the last slots in August. Not perfect - going to lose some band and football players, but we're very happy.

Thanks, Dan! I did see Eagle90's referral to North Country Outfitters in Ely after I launched the thread. I've seen their website -- very professional. Still interested to know if others have worked with others they would recommend, too.

We're planning to take 2 crews up to Boundary Waters this summer. Unfortunately, BSA/Sommers is full at desired time, so we're investigating commercial outfitters. Can anyone give me references for good outfitters they have used in Ely, MN, area? How does cost compare to BSA? Will they tailor your package if want to save money by bringing some own gear? Thanks in advance! -Mike F

It's time for a new pack. Grew up on External Frames and never had a complaint. With all the rave about Internals, I rented one for trip a while back. OK, it was stable, but I found equipment harder to access and my back was continuously soaked with sweat. I'm also mostly a trail hiker -- not likely to spend much time doing off-trail scrambling, cross-country ski trekking, etc. Have begun to think all the press about expensive internal frame packs is mostly marketing and your average Scout-type hiker not only doesn't need it, but it's not the best for our needs. Any thoughts?

Excellent ideas on ways to enhance the program in different ways! (I especially liked Eagle 74s ideas -- teaches them to observe leadership while watching the movies they love anyway. I'm sure they see the movies in a different light when you flip the switch for them.) In a slightly different twist, I have a presentation on the early Antarctic explorers, like Shackelton, that goes over very well. Shows the guys how leadership made the difference between life and death in real situations. Its easy to relate back to the 11 points and gets them thinking.