Mike F

This is the kinds of ideas I was hoping to hear! Keep 'em coming!!

Did your Eagle go to Philmont? If so, he might enjoy the collection of music (Philsongs: Remembered Days) found on Philmont Staff Association website: http://www.philstaff.com/noname.html. I haven't heard the CD, yet, but enjoyed the pleasure of jamming with some of these guys many moons ago and I can't wait to get my copy. Also more at http://www.philstaff.com/music.html -mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Bob White back to your post on Wed, Oct 23. (Sorry for jumping back, but Ive been out.) Interesting points. Not even I would call the mixed-age patrols I experienced in the late-60s/early-70s a panacea. However, problems with younger scouts being PL and having trouble with older scouts in patrol was almost unheard of because the older scouts, being more advanced and experienced, were almost without exception the PL until it was time for them to move up & out giving the next oldest the chance to lead for a while. This is the way the real world works most of the time, too. (Take a

Looking for ideas -- how do you use them as part of your normal program (weekly meetings and campouts)?

Bob White rightly asked for some specific examples of how our methods (if not rules) have changed over time. This took a bit of digging, but I came up with the following that I believe are significant. Sources I cite are the 1967 PL Handbook, 1981 SM Handbook, and 2001 SM Handbook. In the notes below, I use only the date to indicate source. Setting up Patrols Allow for leadership 1981 -- Scouts choices should be observed, but each patrol should have at least one potential leader. P 67 2001 -- Potential leadership not mentioned when setting up patrols all expected to be leader

acco40, My hat's off to you as you work mightily to get a new troop off the ground and running. It's a tough job -- I know, because I did the same over 25 yrs ago. As a leader, you have to adapt to get anything to work. You'll have to spend a lot of time modeling leadership and coaching those budding leaders. Eventually, the boys will 'get it' and will be the models the new guys look up to. This discussion was intended more for those who have medium to large, mature troops with a full range of ages and experience. That being said, I'm not questioning how/why anybody is running

Bob, Yes - I'm trained and then some. The platitudes they give as rationale don't hold water. You dodged a lot of other items for comment -- probably evidenced by the Edited By notes. I don't think the difference in 10.5 yr olds and 12 yr olds explains the huge change in the methods we're encouraged to employ today.

Bob, Maybe we're getting to the crux of the problem here. When Baden-Powell set up the scouting program, he had a wide range of boys in one patrol and it was rightly assumed that one of the older boys would provide the leadership. As a result, for most of BSA's history, we have been very successful at turning out developed, capable leaders with a strong sense of responsibility, confidence, self-reliance, and citizenship. As we have evolved the methods of Scouting over the last 20 or so years in particular, we have seen the percentage of Eagle Scouts climb from 1% to 4%, but I believe

Bob, BSA doesn't say the PL cannot be re-elected, but in the two Troops I'm active with in Houston and others in the District, this is their stated policy. I think we both agree this is a misapplication of the idea. They've taken another recommendation (usually applied to the First Year Patrol) that everybody should have a chance to be the PL and taken it to its logical conclusion in absurdity. In one sons mixed-age patrol containing a Life, a Star, two 1st Class Scout, one 2nd Class, and three first-year Tenderfoot Scouts one of the brand new 11-yr olds with less than 5 months in t

Red Feather and all, Again -- no dispute about Youth Protection and Safety -- they are there for obvious reasons -- let's agree to leave those out of the discussion. But I am concerned about some of the other trends because I believe they affect our ability to grow strong leaders. In my mind, those are an impediment to me doing the best I can for the Scouts. Let's get specific. Boys need leadership position for advancement so we encourage them to rotate positions every 6 months (the minimum term which meets requirement for Star/Life/Eagle). But leadership is best when it's co

le Voyageur, Good point -- I take no issue with Youth Protection and other safety rules. Am more concerned with leadership, advancement, and other parts of the program that have been changed over time.

yaworski & Ed, I have a strong personal hunch that your personal opinions have a significant amount of truth to them. What I'm hoping to dig up is the documented rationale from the ones who made the rules what they are. Changes like you describe would tend to dilute/confuse/twist/ignore the real Methods of Scouting. If we knew which rules were changed to allow/encourage unreasonable rates of advancement or to be more PC, it would be helpful -- both to begin working to change it back, or to at least know the source of the problem when things don't seem to be working well under curre

This was inspired by some of the discussion in the "Why can't we all just get along?" thread, but I figured it might merit some discussion on its own. Is the rationale/justification/logic/support for all of the rules documented in any place that we could study it? I was extremely active in scouting from my youth until the birth of my second child (when my wife resented being left at home with two while I camped with others kids fair nuf). After a few years off, Im excited about being active again, but am often confused by some of the changes in the program (AKA, The Rules) while I

Good discussion! To encourage the sports players to attend meetings, our troop allows players to come straight from practice to the meeting in their sports clothes. Instead of getting on them about uniforms, they are praised for their dedication. With a little bit of planning and effort, their Scout Handbooks, compass, etc., can be pre-loaded into Dads car or stashed in their sports gear bag. After Friday night games, guys will drive out to the campouts late or on Saturday morning. When talking attendance, its not too hard to keep track of excused absences for band/sports/school l

le V, Does your Troop get involved in rescue work or disaster response? If so, I'd like to talk to you about it! I've mentioned it to some leaders here and they thought I was crazy. Made contact with FEMA and Red Cross after recent flooding in Central Texas to see if we could bring a group up, but they were very reluctant due to liabilities, etc. My first memory of Boy Scouts in action was a local news clip showing Boy Scouts helping sand-bag a levy after a hurricane in S. Texas. I was a Cub and couldn't wait to do some real hero stuff to help out. Do Scouts do this anymore?? Brea

I have sons in two different troops -- one has a few female SAs and the other has an explicit policy that Boy Scouts is a "guy" thing and has plenty of men to help out. After observing both for a while, it's obvious that things change a bit with moms in camp. While one or two are thoroughly professional, others will occasionally turn on the female charm, etc.. The second troop includes mom and the rest of the family during occasional 'family' campouts so they can enjoy watching their son/brother/husband doing his thing. While I recognize and celebrate the women who step into the arena when

Korea Scouter, Sounds like your current program is strong, with solid boy leadership at work. Congratulations! Instead of taking a chance on disrupting a program that's working well, we have occasional special, more challenging activities just for the older boys. They get the benefit of the higher-level activities and have some new knowledge and skills to share with the rest of the patrol later. And the younger guys have something to look forward to in the future. One of my son's troops (similar in size to yours) is doing it this way very effectively. At about half of the troo

I'm back on my medication (just kidding), but I have calmed down and I must go on record as retracting some of the over-the-top points in my last post. All, After "HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE" please delete "TO THE LETTER". Bob White's right-on in slapping me over that one -- it's an unbearable approach with adults and especially kids. But do hold the PL accountable. Too often the kids get the training, but nobody keeps tabs on them to make sure they're on the right track until they've drifted into the ditch. If we don't touch base on the items covered in training, we're sending the uni

Very common problem, smaster101! Some SMs take a very hands-off approach -- simply remarking that it's the boys decision and if they make a bad one, they'll learn from it and vote smarter next time. I think more often a poor PL will cause the entire Patrol to flounder and lose interest. I put forth the hypothesis that poor Patrol leadership is one of the top 5 reasons why kids drop out. I'll take this another step and say that in our desire to spread around the leadership and give everybody the chance to be PL (many before they're really ready), we are creating turmoil and instability at

Bob58, Sorry for late reply. There's really a good reason for this rule -- it's important for your new members to make friends in their new lodge. One of my Ordeal-mates 30 years ago continues to be one of my best friends to this day. Another question worth asking: "Are there any other Ordeal weekends planned in this Lodge within the next year?" (Note: Scouts/Scouters elected for OA membership have a year to complete their Ordeal.) Your boys can't be the only ones with this problem. Most lodges have additional opportunities at Fall, Winter, or Spring conclaves.

Back to the original problem about lights-out... Bob White -- I loved your example of using the chain of command! You identified the problem, then brought it to the attention of the boy leadership chain. Part of leadership is setting the example and enforcing the rules. Of course it's easier for us to deal with the problem directly, but nobody learns anything and we will be the ones that continue to be required to step in. For problems other than safety, we should insist the chain of command deal with the situation (even if we sometimes hold the ultimate hammer, like your telephone ca

One of the posters mentioned staying in barracks -- great, if you can get it. Our troop in Texas usually stays in a gym on Air Force bases in San Antonio and Wichita Falls. Most bases have multiple gyms and one closes early enough for us to use. Have to keep the kids off of the equipment, but the basketball courts are always available for burning off energy after a day in the car/bus. In addition to cheap chow, we've been able to take in a movie and use the recreation center. By the way, we have stayed on bases since Sept 11. Don't forget to bring a nice gift for the sponsor you'll b

We include a talk, much along the lines of scouter659's line of thought, during orientation for new scout parents. Many come in thinking of scouts as mostly something fun for the boys. We try to help them understand the real value of scouting that goes way beyond the fun. If it was only fun, it makes sense to use scouts as a punishment tool. But if they see it as a legitimately positive influence, they wouldn't consider withholding scouts any more than school, church, band, or a sports team. Helps to have this discussion (and hopefully for the parents to make the decision) long BEFO

Another twist to the question: I'm registered as an ASM in #1 son's troop and I proudly wear the uniform. #2 son just joined another troop and SM has asked me to help out as an ASM, when able. What about wearing both troop numbers on one uniform so I never brain-slip and wear the wrong one to a meeting? (Please try to control the laughter -- this is going to be hard enough as it is, so I'm looking for options to simplify in any way possible.)

A great story from local paper. --------------------------------- Boy Scouts prepare Gonzalez for life By BARBARA KARKABI Houston Chronicle March 16, 2002 By the time Rudy Gonzalez was in fifth grade, his life was going down the tubes. It began when he was 6. His father was shot and killed at a club while trying to help a relative. "After that, I didn't care about anything," Gonzalez recalled. "I didn't care about who I hurt or what I did. I thought if people don't care, why should I care?" Growing up in Magnolia Park in Houston's East End, he began hanging out with