Mike F

Dave J 775 - If you're still around after this, I have sent you a private note. Feel free to discuss the ideas with me via email. Bob White - I was learning some new stuff in this discussion, but now feel like I've been an unwitting party to an elaborate ambush. Lots of earlier discussion about the unknown (and some thought possibly hypothetical) Troop A gets a bunch of innocent folks to say Troop A is in the Danger Zone. (Even if it was a pseudo troop, we all know troops with some of these problems, so we could relate and it gets us to think.) Then 80 posts later the coup-de-tat is d

Come on, guys. Please lay aside the sniper scopes for a second. You're the Unit Commissioner. Two troops have been described that are in trouble: Dave J's & Bob White's (regardless of what you think about his, it still COULD make for a thought-provoking discussion that I could learn from). And Dave J is asking for our help and instead he's getting a front-row seat to a feud. Let's put the weapons on "safe" and see if we can come up with some ideas. If not for Bob White's Troop A, then for Dave J's, which he says pretty much matches a lot of BW's description.

Hunt, I like your answer, but there's a hidden gotcha in there. BOR doesn't re-test -- only supposed to confirm Scout has completed requirements. So you're not supposed to hand him a rope and ask him to demonstrate a timber hitch, but you can ask him how he learned the timber hitch, does he know what it's used for (a yes/no question), and how has he used the knot since he learned it. By poking around a bit, it's usually pretty obvious if there's a significant problem.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Its kinda like realizing you took a wrong turn on a path. First figure out where you are now. If havent gone too far down the wrong track, fastest/easiest way to get on the right path is just to back up to the turn you missed. If youve gone a long ways, it might be best to find an intersecting path that takes you back to intended trail without backtracking as much. In the case of UCs helping the Troop A's out there, its probably more like bushwhacking back in the general direction of the right path Terrain is different in each case - complete with land mines and hidden cliffs.

Dave J, Wow - there's a lot in here. First - what changed to stop the influx of new Scouts? Was the change to only accept boys at age 12 a recent thing? Did there used to be a Pack associated with your troop which shut down? (Presumably they would be bound by same restrictions posed by Church.) Second - Since your troop has a reputation for positive character growth, you might be able to make your point by getting into the meaning of "do your best" and the damaging signals it sends to the guys when they know their best isn't really expected or required. Character growth isn'

A note about the waivers they have you sign if you refuse treatment: My brother's a dentist. He has been sued when a patient refused his recommended treatment and the condition spread into the jaw and became life-threatening. The patient certainly had the right to refuse treatment, but that little piece of paper was the only proof my brother had that he had correctly diagnosed the problem and treatment. Fortunately the courts decided the patient had assumed responsibility for their own problem when they refused their doctor's treatment. I don't blame the insurance companies - they're

Tough one. From Scouts side, the requirements don't say they have to retain everything, just do it, demonstrate it, etc. I would still expect him to remember something, but maybe that's out of line. This actually opens up another recent thread about using BORs to gain insight into SM program side of troop. Why isn't the troop active enough that Scouts are continuously using and teaching the skills they learn?

Hops, $80 for a Jansport Carson 90 External Frame Pack looks like a good deal to me, although I haven't had much experience with Jansport personally. At 5500 cubic inches it's plenty big - maybe even too big for most Scout stuff. (Resist the temptation to fill it up!) I also usually recommend an external frame for Scouts unless they are sure they're going to be doing a lot of off-trail bushwacking or cross-country ski trekking. Before you order one off the Internet, I recommend you try to find one you can try out. Hope some of our Gear Heads drop in to give you better advice

Bob W - I didn't intend to imply your Troop A's didn't exist, so "hypothetical" was the wrong word, although a lot of the discussion wandered into hypothetical weeds. I thought it might help keep the discussion going in a positive direction if we had another specific example from someone (Davej775) who appeared to be asking for help and was willing to share. -mike

Dave, You've just moved us from hypothetical to practical. Since Bob White sounded like he might be signing off of this thread, allow me to ask a few questions. First, you have watched a troop decay to the point of being in danger of failing completely. We have sniped a bit about what might cause this to happen and, as usual, have disagreed. Can you tell us what you believe the top 3 or so factors might in your situation? (If you're versed in the official Methods of Scouting, we could start there. If not, just tell us from the gut.) Second, we understand you're not the SM, so

"Sometimes these great advancements have their own list of problems." Thanks for making that point, FOG. The options have their own strengths and weaknesses - there are not absolute answers that are always better for everybody - that's why BSA uses wording about them being options. That rusting hulk of a Chevy required some special TLC, but it never let me down. Don't get me started about the electronic ignition in my Grand Caravan...

Please allow me to develop my analogy about the engine a little further to more clearly explain my thoughts. Think of a Boy Scout troop as being powered by the 8 Methods of Scouting represented by a good, old-fashion V-8 engine where each of the cylinders is one of the Methods. The engine is what makes the vehicle go. When all cylinders are functioning properly, the machine moves forward smoothly with minimum noise and maximum efficiency. If the engine is neglected over time, the cylinders (valves, spark plugs, etc.) will start to degrade and youll lose efficiency. You can even have a

Hops, We need the link, buddy! It would also be helpful to know what kind of backpacking you plan to do with it - weekend campouts, Philmont, cross-country ski trekking, mostly warm weather, mostly trails or bushwacking in the rough, etc. And you thought it was a simple question! -mike

I have a minor disagreement about checking for routine, especially weekend, backpacking trips. If they won't get hurt, let them learn the natural consequences of their mistake. Had a scout discover on a weekend trip last spring that he didn't have a sleeping bag! Problem solved by having two buddies unzip their bags - used one each on top and bottom - all three in a 2-person tent. They did fine and his buddies are still giving him a hard time about it before every campout. Same goes for lugging too much weight. That scout will take a closer look at what he really needs next time. If he

For normal activities in more benign conditions, Id say let the guys develop a checklist ahead of time (that you review), pack their own stuff, and work equipment checks within patrols. In these cases, the missing stuff is likely to be no more serious than minor chill, hunger, etc. When the stakes are high, everybody gets checked including adults. Not only would it be irresponsible for us to expose one of the youth under our watch to undue danger, its also poor teamwork. You wouldnt think about letting your buddy start rappelling down the cliff without a double check of his gear. Sam

Thanks for the kind words, Bob White! I can see that in my future, perhaps. Serving as an Asst SM in two different troops today is good training - challenging to switch gears to the nuances of two different situations and I sometimes feel like I'm a Jr. Asst UC as I try to gently guide/influence. But with a third son starting out in Cubs, I'd prefer to stay in the trenches. I'll defer to your expertise in the "too good to be true" tally. My local observation isn't that generous, but is limited. Now for the latest - what makes the difference between A & B? I'll chime in w

FOG & Bob White slid their notes in while I was writing mine above. I obviously echo some of FOG's points. To answer latest, alarms on Troop A are growing louder and the little voice in the back of my head wondering how Troop B could be doing so well is getting quieter.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Interesting thread, Bob White! Gives me appreciation for challenge of UC!! All agreed that Troop A has (or at least had) some sort of problem. With no other information, I would say its in Danger. I would consider calling the homes of members who recently quit to gain some insight. (That's only 7 calls to make - not too difficult.) Don't do this as an "investigation" into problems in Troop A - instead phrase it as "checking into reasons why boys in the District are leaving Scouts." Look for opportunities to observe Troop A in action. Public gatherings like camporees, etc., are perf

Barry, Wow -- thanks! I needed a starter list like this -- we're getting ready for a Philmont parents meeting and are putting together list of equipment ideas. Just in time for Christmas! -mike

I know of one SM who insists each Scout be able to provide examples of how he has lived up to each of the 12 points of the Scout Law. If they can't think of one (or more), come back later and we'll finish up. The SM says the word is out, so the Scouts are paying more attention to the Law - not only in preparation for an SM conference, but all the time. I haven't tried this yet, but it's an interesting approach.

As I understand it (although perhaps not documented - I don't recall), there are two purposes to a BOR. 1. Verify the Scout is ready for advancement (we've talked plenty about this), and 2. Members of the Troop Committee perform a quality control check of the SM-led program side of the house. If they have any questions or concerns about this, they talk to SM. I encountered a situation like described in previous posts about 2 months ago when I was asked to support a BOR in another troop. When we asked our young Star candidate about what he had done in his POR, he stammered a bit a

Beyond the questions to ask in a visit, I recommend taking some time to visit and observe the troop in action. Visit as many meetings as it takes to get a good feel for the spirit of the troop. Observe them in action. Go out to join them for their campfire on Saturday night of a campout. Or go a little earlier to watch them preparing dinner. While the parent may ask some of the questions, the parent and almost-scout can talk about those findings and what they are likely mean to the scout in his future. My oldest son joined his first troop simply because all his Webelos buddies d

As an adult, I'm not perfect and the boys aren't either. If I stray and don't self-correct, I hope I have some friends who care enough to have a quiet talk with me. (And yes, I've been on both ends of these uncomfortable talks.) We do the same for the boys -- "let's talk about this - do you understand what went wrong? What are you going to do about it? How will you be sure this won't happen again? Etc." If they see the error of their ways and are willing to make amends and straighten up, all is made right in the world. Whats at issue in this young mans tragic situation is whether or no

acco40, I strongly recommend keeping the staff guys separate from the patrols on campouts. Campouts are the prime opportunity for patrols to learn to work together and practice all of that leadership stuff. In my experience, it clobbers the patrol dynamics to have extra guys added into the mix -- especially guys who are most likely senior (in position, if not age and experience) to the patrol leader. Your choice on whether to have them (staff) mix in with adults for cooking. If just two (an SPL and one ASPL, like you described), I'd have them in with adults. If much larger, consider let

RE: gender limits on adults involved in troop - especially campouts. Please folks - we've been through this in great detail. You're right - the SM cannot ban women on his own, but the Chartering Org can have rules that say only adult males may be registered as leaders in the troop they sponsor. Don't yell at the messenger. Search the archives if you want to know more.