Mike F

Dave J 775 - If you're still around after this, I have sent you a private note. Feel free to discuss the ideas with me via email. Bob White - I was learning some new stuff in this discussion, but now feel like I've been an unwitting party to an elaborate ambush. Lots of earlier discussion about the unknown (and some thought possibly hypothetical) Troop A gets a bunch of innocent folks to say Troop A is in the Danger Zone. (Even if it was a pseudo troop, we all know troops with some of these problems, so we could relate and it gets us to think.) Then 80 posts later the coup-de-tat is delivered with a zing. I try to keep an open mind, but I don't see how this method of communicating ideas could possibly have a positive outcome. Im outta this one. Good day, gentlemen. -mike f

Come on, guys. Please lay aside the sniper scopes for a second. You're the Unit Commissioner. Two troops have been described that are in trouble: Dave J's & Bob White's (regardless of what you think about his, it still COULD make for a thought-provoking discussion that I could learn from). And Dave J is asking for our help and instead he's getting a front-row seat to a feud. Let's put the weapons on "safe" and see if we can come up with some ideas. If not for Bob White's Troop A, then for Dave J's, which he says pretty much matches a lot of BW's description.

Hunt, I like your answer, but there's a hidden gotcha in there. BOR doesn't re-test -- only supposed to confirm Scout has completed requirements. So you're not supposed to hand him a rope and ask him to demonstrate a timber hitch, but you can ask him how he learned the timber hitch, does he know what it's used for (a yes/no question), and how has he used the knot since he learned it. By poking around a bit, it's usually pretty obvious if there's a significant problem.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Its kinda like realizing you took a wrong turn on a path. First figure out where you are now. If havent gone too far down the wrong track, fastest/easiest way to get on the right path is just to back up to the turn you missed. If youve gone a long ways, it might be best to find an intersecting path that takes you back to intended trail without backtracking as much. In the case of UCs helping the Troop A's out there, its probably more like bushwhacking back in the general direction of the right path Terrain is different in each case - complete with land mines and hidden cliffs.

Dave J, Wow - there's a lot in here. First - what changed to stop the influx of new Scouts? Was the change to only accept boys at age 12 a recent thing? Did there used to be a Pack associated with your troop which shut down? (Presumably they would be bound by same restrictions posed by Church.) Second - Since your troop has a reputation for positive character growth, you might be able to make your point by getting into the meaning of "do your best" and the damaging signals it sends to the guys when they know their best isn't really expected or required. Character growth isn't about blocks to fill out on a college application - it's about what's in your heart. My sincere best wishes for you and your son. Hang in there! -mike For the professionals out there: Can a CO really have a requirement that you must be at least 12 years old to join our troop? I have never seen an option to limit troop membership like this. What other limits on troop membership might be imposed as an option?

A note about the waivers they have you sign if you refuse treatment: My brother's a dentist. He has been sued when a patient refused his recommended treatment and the condition spread into the jaw and became life-threatening. The patient certainly had the right to refuse treatment, but that little piece of paper was the only proof my brother had that he had correctly diagnosed the problem and treatment. Fortunately the courts decided the patient had assumed responsibility for their own problem when they refused their doctor's treatment. I don't blame the insurance companies - they're in business to make money and have competition to keep rates as low as they can. Instead take a look at the legal system with lawyers who are motivated by getting a percentage piece of the winnings. The larger the settlement, the larger the paycheck. We're one of the only countries in the world that allows this payment scheme. Bigger lawsuits --> more insurance payments --> higher insurance premiums paid by dentists --> higher cost to you. And more CYA procedures by dentists who don't want to get sued because they neglected to recommend treatment for something you may or may not have. If they're not sure, they have to recommend it anyway so you (and your lawyers) don't come looking for them in 6 months.

Tough one. From Scouts side, the requirements don't say they have to retain everything, just do it, demonstrate it, etc. I would still expect him to remember something, but maybe that's out of line. This actually opens up another recent thread about using BORs to gain insight into SM program side of troop. Why isn't the troop active enough that Scouts are continuously using and teaching the skills they learn?

Hops, $80 for a Jansport Carson 90 External Frame Pack looks like a good deal to me, although I haven't had much experience with Jansport personally. At 5500 cubic inches it's plenty big - maybe even too big for most Scout stuff. (Resist the temptation to fill it up!) I also usually recommend an external frame for Scouts unless they are sure they're going to be doing a lot of off-trail bushwacking or cross-country ski trekking. Before you order one off the Internet, I recommend you try to find one you can try out. Hope some of our Gear Heads drop in to give you better advice.

Bob W - I didn't intend to imply your Troop A's didn't exist, so "hypothetical" was the wrong word, although a lot of the discussion wandered into hypothetical weeds. I thought it might help keep the discussion going in a positive direction if we had another specific example from someone (Davej775) who appeared to be asking for help and was willing to share. -mike

Dave, You've just moved us from hypothetical to practical. Since Bob White sounded like he might be signing off of this thread, allow me to ask a few questions. First, you have watched a troop decay to the point of being in danger of failing completely. We have sniped a bit about what might cause this to happen and, as usual, have disagreed. Can you tell us what you believe the top 3 or so factors might in your situation? (If you're versed in the official Methods of Scouting, we could start there. If not, just tell us from the gut.) Second, we understand you're not the SM, so you don't make the decisions. And the SM hasn't been receptive to input from you on how to improve things. Imagine any of us lived in your neighborhood and had boys in that sister troop in the other church down the street. How might we approach your troop to discuss this? And how could we help? Thanks! -mike f

"Sometimes these great advancements have their own list of problems." Thanks for making that point, FOG. The options have their own strengths and weaknesses - there are not absolute answers that are always better for everybody - that's why BSA uses wording about them being options. That rusting hulk of a Chevy required some special TLC, but it never let me down. Don't get me started about the electronic ignition in my Grand Caravan...

Please allow me to develop my analogy about the engine a little further to more clearly explain my thoughts. Think of a Boy Scout troop as being powered by the 8 Methods of Scouting represented by a good, old-fashion V-8 engine where each of the cylinders is one of the Methods. The engine is what makes the vehicle go. When all cylinders are functioning properly, the machine moves forward smoothly with minimum noise and maximum efficiency. If the engine is neglected over time, the cylinders (valves, spark plugs, etc.) will start to degrade and youll lose efficiency. You can even have a cylinder go dead such that it is no longer helping power the vehicle. Now the system is really hurting. It may still move forward, but its harder to get you where youre trying to go and you may not have the power to get over some obstacles on your path. If the neglect continues and another couple of cylinders fail, the machine stops dead in its tracks perhaps making some awful chugging noises, but not able to generate enough power to move forward. (I have experience with an old 74 Chevy Nova that I thought I didnt have the time or energy to maintain right.) In order to keep the machine running right, its necessary to take the time and effort to keep it properly maintained. The spark plug for each cylinder needs to be inspected, cleaned, and re-gapped. A compression test on each cylinder tells you when youre losing efficiency and its time for a valve job. Yes, it takes time and effort especially the first few times you go through it but it saves a great deal of extra effort and heartache from breakdowns on the road. Oil was mentioned as being important in a car and indeed it is. Oil lubricates the internal mechanisms most importantly the cylinders and it does affect all of them. To fit my analogy, oil would perhaps be training which occasionally needs to be refreshed. Cooling system is another important one. It keeps the engine/cylinders at the proper operating temperature and protects against damage from overheating. In my mind, a sense of humor and goodwill are the coolant system. In an engine, the electrical systems most important function is to provide the spark to fire the plugs. In Scouting, that would be enthusiasm. Fuel is the stuff thats fed into the engine to provide the pressure to drive each cylinder. Fueling a car engine is so easy we take it for granted. Pull up to the pump and get out a credit card. In 3 minutes youre back on the road. For us, that fuel is the energy (effort) that goes into driving each of the 8 Methods. (Alas it is not always easy for us to keep our tank full) Although optional, for superior performance, an engine benefits from a turbocharger. That would definitely be an active high adventure program. The 8 Methods of Scouting are the cylinders of the engine that moves the program forward lubricated with training, cooled by a sense of humor and goodwill, sparked by enthusiasm, fueled with raw energy, and sometimes turbocharged by a high-adventure program. These are the fundamentals. With these things in place, the engine will run and the vehicle will move forward. Over time, there have been some advances in engine technology to reduce maintenance requirements. One of these is the replacement of old points/condenser/distributor system with electronic ignition. If youre willing and able to provide the old system the attention and care it requires, it will serve you just fine. Some car enthusiasts take great pride in so doing. It is particularly challenging to retrofit an existing vehicle with an electronic ignition system if it didnt start out with one. In addition, if the owner/operator has the skill to keep the old system running, he doesnt have much motivation to attempt such action. At the risk of being flamed, I put forth the position that optional program elements fit into this category. There are advantages to the newer system, but if you're running on all 8 cylinders, you still have a functioning Scouting Program. Without getting into the legalities of other equipment needed to operate a motor vehicle on a public roadway, lets talk about some extra support equipment. Using seatbelts and having an airbag system enhance safety in a vehicle. The Guide to Safe Scouting is our safety system. Windshield wipers help to clear our vision. Perhaps a periodic program assessment can do that. Headlights help light your way in the dark. Those would be the handbooks. Horns and lights signal your intent to other drivers. That would be communication. I guess Ive driven this analogy about as far as I can. (Pun intended.) Sorry for the long post. Hopefully somebody will find it insightful and maybe even useful. -mike f (This message has been edited by Mike F)

Hops, We need the link, buddy! It would also be helpful to know what kind of backpacking you plan to do with it - weekend campouts, Philmont, cross-country ski trekking, mostly warm weather, mostly trails or bushwacking in the rough, etc. And you thought it was a simple question! -mike

I have a minor disagreement about checking for routine, especially weekend, backpacking trips. If they won't get hurt, let them learn the natural consequences of their mistake. Had a scout discover on a weekend trip last spring that he didn't have a sleeping bag! Problem solved by having two buddies unzip their bags - used one each on top and bottom - all three in a 2-person tent. They did fine and his buddies are still giving him a hard time about it before every campout. Same goes for lugging too much weight. That scout will take a closer look at what he really needs next time. If he's really dragging down the group, the guys should figure out they have to help him out. And then apply the good-natured ribbing before the next time... Go ahead and let them make mistakes when it won't really hurt them. Those are the lessons they won't forget.

For normal activities in more benign conditions, Id say let the guys develop a checklist ahead of time (that you review), pack their own stuff, and work equipment checks within patrols. In these cases, the missing stuff is likely to be no more serious than minor chill, hunger, etc. When the stakes are high, everybody gets checked including adults. Not only would it be irresponsible for us to expose one of the youth under our watch to undue danger, its also poor teamwork. You wouldnt think about letting your buddy start rappelling down the cliff without a double check of his gear. Same thing applies to extreme temperatures, white water, etc. Dont think of it as hand-holding think of it as part of the buddy system.

Thanks for the kind words, Bob White! I can see that in my future, perhaps. Serving as an Asst SM in two different troops today is good training - challenging to switch gears to the nuances of two different situations and I sometimes feel like I'm a Jr. Asst UC as I try to gently guide/influence. But with a third son starting out in Cubs, I'd prefer to stay in the trenches. I'll defer to your expertise in the "too good to be true" tally. My local observation isn't that generous, but is limited. Now for the latest - what makes the difference between A & B? I'll chime in with the Choir Director on this one -- use of the Methods of Scouting is likely key. Troop B is running on all 8 cylinders (Methods) and Troop A is missing at least a few. Just like an engine, performance will suffer and you could end up with complete failure of the powerplant that moves the vehicle forward. (Sorry for mixing metaphors - couldn't resist.)(This message has been edited by Mike F)

FOG & Bob White slid their notes in while I was writing mine above. I obviously echo some of FOG's points. To answer latest, alarms on Troop A are growing louder and the little voice in the back of my head wondering how Troop B could be doing so well is getting quieter.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Interesting thread, Bob White! Gives me appreciation for challenge of UC!! All agreed that Troop A has (or at least had) some sort of problem. With no other information, I would say its in Danger. I would consider calling the homes of members who recently quit to gain some insight. (That's only 7 calls to make - not too difficult.) Don't do this as an "investigation" into problems in Troop A - instead phrase it as "checking into reasons why boys in the District are leaving Scouts." Look for opportunities to observe Troop A in action. Public gatherings like camporees, etc., are perfect. Any unit with almost twice as many registered adults as Scouts appears off-balance. To their credit, they are camping once a month, but it sounds like they might be more of an adult camping club than a BSA Troop. Somewhere in here it's time to contact the SM directly. In case he's not aware, tell him about your role as a UC, then "We don't like to obsess over the numbers, but couldn't help but notice Troop A has lost a number of Scouts lately. What do you think some of the causes might be?" Then listen very carefully to what is said and not said. If the SM doesn't know or seems receptive to help, offer to come in to observe and to provide him feedback and ideas in private. This should be enough to get you started in the right direction or thrown out on your ear... Troop B sounds almost too good to be true. With no other information, I would say its healthy. But the numbers can be deceiving. I was tempted to suggest the remote possibility Troop B could be dominated by adults who were keeping it easy by spoon-feeding Scouts the program to keep everybody comfortable and advancing quickly. I've known troops like this. But the clincher is the 5 active Eagle scouts - if they have Eagle and are still active, there is definitely something going right in Troop B. In the adult-dominated Eagle Mill troops I've known, none of them had any active Eagles - the guys were in there for one reason and when they accomplished it, they were done. No reasons to hang around if you dont really have anything to do since adults are running the show. I don't think the low number of Asst SMs is necessarily a warning sign. If a troop is using and modeling leadership well, 4 dedicated, active Asst SMs could be enough. (Assuming TC members are also willing and able to support activities as required.) I would definitely visit Troop B as soon as I had the chance. Not as much to see what's wrong as to see what's going right. And maybe get some ideas to pass on to sister troops in the area. But while observing, Id still listen to that voice in the back of my head telling me This is almost too good to be true.

Barry, Wow -- thanks! I needed a starter list like this -- we're getting ready for a Philmont parents meeting and are putting together list of equipment ideas. Just in time for Christmas! -mike

I know of one SM who insists each Scout be able to provide examples of how he has lived up to each of the 12 points of the Scout Law. If they can't think of one (or more), come back later and we'll finish up. The SM says the word is out, so the Scouts are paying more attention to the Law - not only in preparation for an SM conference, but all the time. I haven't tried this yet, but it's an interesting approach.

As I understand it (although perhaps not documented - I don't recall), there are two purposes to a BOR. 1. Verify the Scout is ready for advancement (we've talked plenty about this), and 2. Members of the Troop Committee perform a quality control check of the SM-led program side of the house. If they have any questions or concerns about this, they talk to SM. I encountered a situation like described in previous posts about 2 months ago when I was asked to support a BOR in another troop. When we asked our young Star candidate about what he had done in his POR, he stammered a bit and finally said (and I quote), "Pretty much nothing." Upon further discussion, he said he knew the expectations, but just hadn't done anything. We asked the Scout to leave the room and agreed that the requirement hadn't been met. The SM was not at meeting that week, so we talked to him later. SM is now working with the Scout (who SM knew wasn't ready for Star) to help him succeed and his Asst SM (who signed the book and shouldn't have) to get him properly trained. This situation should never have occurred for a variety of reasons, but is an example of how BOR serves as a check in the system.

Beyond the questions to ask in a visit, I recommend taking some time to visit and observe the troop in action. Visit as many meetings as it takes to get a good feel for the spirit of the troop. Observe them in action. Go out to join them for their campfire on Saturday night of a campout. Or go a little earlier to watch them preparing dinner. While the parent may ask some of the questions, the parent and almost-scout can talk about those findings and what they are likely mean to the scout in his future. My oldest son joined his first troop simply because all his Webelos buddies decided to join it. I sensed problems brewing, but didn't listen to the little voice. Within a year, my son was totally disillusioned and ready to drop out of scouts altogether. Fortunately I talked him into visiting other troops in the area and we found one with a healthier program. (I did MY homework the second time around.) Several posters have mentioned adult leadership. Another question I've learned to ask SMs is how much longer they plan to be around. If they plan to be leaving within the next year or so, it's a good idea to ask about who will likely be taking their place.

As an adult, I'm not perfect and the boys aren't either. If I stray and don't self-correct, I hope I have some friends who care enough to have a quiet talk with me. (And yes, I've been on both ends of these uncomfortable talks.) We do the same for the boys -- "let's talk about this - do you understand what went wrong? What are you going to do about it? How will you be sure this won't happen again? Etc." If they see the error of their ways and are willing to make amends and straighten up, all is made right in the world. Whats at issue in this young mans tragic situation is whether or not he acknowledges he made a mistake. If he does and wants to move forward in Scouting, I hope we can support him. Since the rest of the troop apparently knows the situation, I would recommend not ignoring it. Best to get it out in the open so other boys can learn from his mistake. Its one thing to hear the generic warnings about unintended consequences, but quite another to hear first-hand from a friend. Every one of those boys is going to be faced with the decision he blew in the next 5-10 years and his example has the potential to save them from sharing the same fate. Consider having a Scouts-only talk where he levels with the guys to tell them what has happened, what it means to him and his girlfriend and their families, etc. Have him note how if he had just really lived by the Oath and Law, he wouldnt be in this situation. Finish up by admitting he blew it and knows he let down his family, his girlfriend, his God, and his Scout buddies, but hes going to continue to do his best for his girlfriend and their child and he hopes his Scout buddies will allow him to continue to enjoy scouting for as long as his new life and responsibilities will allow. My prayers are with him and all involved.

acco40, I strongly recommend keeping the staff guys separate from the patrols on campouts. Campouts are the prime opportunity for patrols to learn to work together and practice all of that leadership stuff. In my experience, it clobbers the patrol dynamics to have extra guys added into the mix -- especially guys who are most likely senior (in position, if not age and experience) to the patrol leader. Your choice on whether to have them (staff) mix in with adults for cooking. If just two (an SPL and one ASPL, like you described), I'd have them in with adults. If much larger, consider letting them be independent. We have also tended in the past to have a lot of "mixed patrols" on campouts, like Hops mentioned, because of the desire to have optimum patrols of 6-8 each, but we're getting away from that. From now on, we're having patrols stick together - even if only 2 guys are there. (If anybody interested, I'll let you know how that goes in a month or two.) -mike

RE: gender limits on adults involved in troop - especially campouts. Please folks - we've been through this in great detail. You're right - the SM cannot ban women on his own, but the Chartering Org can have rules that say only adult males may be registered as leaders in the troop they sponsor. Don't yell at the messenger. Search the archives if you want to know more.